What units are needed for each race?

[cgutzmer]

All races includeing expansions will have access to the core set of vehicles. This is for basic playability. Each race (including the two core races) will have expansion units that will replace one of the core units for that race. The expansion unit will always be a bit better to encourage purchases to improve armies. I look at it like the core units are really old technology and expansion units are new technology.

Off the top of my head - please add, also note we can use different names!

Ships (major)
Battleship
Cruiser
heavy freighter
medium freighter

Ships (minor)
fighters
drop ships (cargo haulers)

Vehicles
Heavy Tank
Medium Tank
Troop Hauler

Troops
Grunts
leaders

Structures
Wall
Gate
generator of some kind
pill box
tower (for wall)
generic building (for possible other uses like armory, barracks etc etc)

thoughts?

[Blackronin]

Line Ships
Battleship
Cruiser
Destroyer
Carrier
heavy freighter
medium freighter

Ships (minor)
fighters
Bombers
drop ships (cargo haulers)

Vehicles
Heavy Tank
Medium Tank
Troop Hauler

Structures
Wall
Gate
generator of some kind
pill box
tower (for wall)
generic building (for possible other uses like armory, barracks etc etc)

[cgutzmer]

I also added troops above as an edit in my first post ;) I thought you were going to bed! ;)

[Blackronin]

I am! I am! But I have ideas buzzing in my head and if they don't get out I can't sleep!

[JT Fox]

All ships/vehicles should have a light/medium/heavy tag.

Lights have good speed, acceleration maneuvering etc.

Heavies have big guns, strong defenses etc.

Medium are a best of both world approach.

Infantry can be standard, assault, garrison etc.

Cheers JTF

[cgutzmer]

hmmmmm that adds a lot of units though - but prolly doable!

[Blackronin]

Chris:

Are we going to make a book for each game system? Like this:

Free book (?) - Strategic Game - Conquer the Stars - Build a Cosmic Empire (This book would have the overview, back story, summary of the three tactical games and strategic game rules.

Deep Space Game - Battles in the Void (?)
Rules
Two cruisers (one for each faction)
Two Destroyers (one for each faction)
Two Transport Ships (one for each faction)
Two squadron counters (one for each faction)

Orbital Defense Game - Planet's Point (?)
4 fighters (two for each faction)
2 drop ships (one for each faction)

Ground Assault Game - Take & Hold (?)
2 tanks (one for each faction)
2 APC (one for each faction)
20 paper models of infantry (10 for each faction)
officer
Sargent
6 small arms positions
1 loader
1 rocket launcher
1 auto cannon
1 communication mini

We could make the rules and then start with one of the tactical games, and each month we would add another one. Thoughts?

[Lex]

My 2'pence:

I like the light/medium/heavy tag, at least for the deep space part which I might be working the most. All armaments might have an effectiveness against each of these tag, which dictate their accuracy and damage. ie a destroyer might make good damage on light units, but poor damage on heavy units, while a battleship might make heavy damage on medium and heavy units, but will struggle to hit a light unit (ie rolling "1" on a dice)

For this part the ships might be:

Battleship (v slow long range against medium/heavy)
Carrier (v slow in charge of launching fighters/bombers)
Missile cruiser (slow long range against medium/heavy)
Escort cruiser (slow medium range against light/medium)
Destroyer (fast short range against light/medium)
[Torpedo ship] (fast short range against medium/heavy)
Fighter sqd (v fast short range against light)
Bomber sqd (v fast short range against heavy)
Transport/landing vessel (slow unarmed/lightly armed), details tbc
[Supply ship] (tbc)
Oh and a missiles marker perhaps...

From previous posts I think people agree most part of this setup, only minor variations are quoted which can be sorted out quickly depending on game mechanics, which is good news...

[Blackronin]

I like the Light/Medium/Heavy tag for the fluff but not for the game mechanism. I prefer an organic system that makes balance between light and heavy a natural thing and not a mechanic imposition.

[Lex]

That can be left for another topic, the question raised in thie topic is still open though

[cgutzmer]

Ronin, please stop referring to them as games - the GAME is Cosmos in Conflict - we are discussing phases of the game. We are not developing three different games but phases within the phase.

Also you miss the point of the core units. There will be one set of all ships for the core that will be layered for different colors/symbols to show sides. This set will have MANY layers to accommodate core ships for any number of players up to like 7 or so. I expect all races to have access to these CORE units. I also expect races to have access to expansion units that will be additional purchases. Expansion units will be slightly better than the core units to show old vs newer technologies. This frees us from having to have complete sets of ships for more than one race and allows people to play expansion races without the need to purchase complete ship sets.

Lex - thats way too many BIG ships, I would prefer to keep the numbers a bit lower than that. I would like to see ships a bit more all purpose so as to keep the numbers down. Too many ships is going to lead to much harder game balance. I suppose it all depends though. Having more options will lead to more diverse choices but I want to make sure not to force people in making specific choices like requireing each of the big ships.

[Blackronin]

So.

Let's get some points clear.

One. You want one game, with three phases and all phases will be played in a row? One evening game with all three phases played?

You want core units, like soldiers, tanks, fighter, dropships, capital ships all equal and players will choose colors and play? So why make two races for the core rulebook? Why not two human factions?

In my opinion, you'll have a poor game, if you try to make a tactical game played as a strategic one. I can give you several examples of "tactical" games to be played in 1/2 hour and you can see by yourself.

On point One. My idea is:

Cosmos in Conflict - Strategic Game Core Book (12-15 pages free book)
Cosmos in Conflict - Deep Space Game
Cosmos in Conflict - Orbital Defense
Cosmos in Conflict - Ground Assault

These books would focus on two species. Each book as a part of the whole but a distinct game in itself.

After that we would release books about the other species and other equipment with models coming out with it.

On Point Two: I agree, but adding a bit of effort we could make the core models for the two first races and we would have a clean line.

[cgutzmer]

the two are exactly the same. Its just a matter of semantics. The three games all work together as phases do they not? each phase can be played standalone for a quick game but its all three together that make the entire game.

I want a human and alien race because at the core most people like to have us vs them, not an us vs us.

I dont see how having it as phases makes it a poor game but calling each phase a game makes it good. Its still the same thing end to end regardless of what you call it.

I want the result of one phase to impact how the next phase plays out. Thats the point of planing the right balance from the start.
Thoughts?

[Blackronin]

Let's see if I can give you a proper image.

You have a line of products like clothing.

You can offer a complete suit.
But you have the shoes in the shoe section. People might only want to buy shoes.
You have the trousers in the trouser section.
You have the shirts in the shirt section.
Etc.

And you have a mannequin with a complete suit everywhere.
But you don't say to people that they can only enter if they are going to buy a complete suit. You tell people that they can buy only the shoes, but they would have a better experience with the complete suit.

I don't know if I made sense...

Let's try this:

You have the battle tech Universe. Very dense and not what we are looking for, but just for you to understand me.

You can play:
Battletech - game of armored combat in the future.
Aerotech - game of space fighters in the future. (You can link it with battle tech.)
Battlespace - space ships and planet assault. (You can link it with battle tech.)
Battleforce - Squadrons of mechs in a semi-strategic game. Each combat could be fought as one battletech game. (Again linked)
Sucession Wars - Overall strategic game that could be played tactically with each of the other games.

So in our case we call it a game so that the players can enter our system from several ways and points. Why make things smaller, when we can make it big layer by layer?

[cgutzmer]

I do understand what you are saying , we want them to play as much or little as they want. but shouldnt they also be able to play end to end and have it make sense. Maybe I aim to high for my first game idea.....

If we are going to make these standalone games we are gonna have to make each one more in depth... I really do want to make something unique! somehow....

[thehaggard]

Here are some Sketchup 3D "sketches" of four classes of ships in paper model ready form. They have some limited mix and match ability once parts are built.

Of course, these will look better once skinned. These follow the same design theory as my Space Ship Minis for sale here on Ecardmodels.com but they are unique and class.

-The Haggard
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100344/Screen-20shot-202010-01-18-20at-2012-44-03-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12637901200001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100344/Screen-20shot-202010-01-18-20at-2012-44-38-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12637901220001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100344/Screen-20shot-202010-01-18-20at-2012-44-56-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12637901240001

[Blackronin]

I like it, Thehaggard. I think they have the same looks, so it will work well on a race. I would call it, Cruiser, Destroyer, Freighter and Dropship in my vision of the game though. Do you think that these ships have the "looks" of being human ships?

[Lex]

Back to the units discussion, I'm not saying that all units will be needed in one battle, an ambush might simply require three ships against a convoy. The point of having all these variation here is to give as much differing scenarios as possible, and if people like to play seriously big, then they will have the option to do so.

[thehaggard]

I like it, Thehaggard. I think they have the same looks, so it will work well on a race. I would call it, Cruiser, Destroyer, Freighter and Dropship in my vision of the game though. Do you think that these ships have the "looks" of being human ships?

At this point they are just sketches I am doing at cgutzmer's request.
I see them as the basis for many "factions" - the PDF would be layered with various colors and markings for faction identification.

I may rework the module ships for sale on the store side of Ecardmodels and make them layered as well, leaving the first version of the model online for those who just want the models for other reasons.

[thehaggard]

There will be one set of all ships for the core that will be layered for different colors/symbols to show sides. This set will have MANY layers to accommodate core ships for any number of players up to like 7 or so. I expect all races to have access to these CORE units.

And here is the design philosophy for the above sketches.

-M

[Blackronin]

At this point they are just sketches I am doing at cgutzmer's request.
I see them as the basis for many "factions" - the PDF would be layered with various colors and markings for faction identification.

I may rework the module ships for sale on the store side of Ecardmodels and make them layered as well, leaving the first version of the model online for those who just want the models for other reasons.

No please, leave it open for now, unless Chris wants to go in another direction. Think of this models as the basic lines for one faction. You can make a lot of different models with these basic lines for that faction, including fighters and ground vehicles.

And off course a general model for those (poor souls :cool: ) who don't want to play our game.

Please refer to the forum today later or tomorrow to see the playable skeleton of the game that I'm creating.

But I like these ships.

[thehaggard]

No please, leave it open for now, unless Chris wants to go in another direction. Think of this models as the basic lines for one faction. You can make a lot of different models with these basic lines for that faction, including fighters and ground vehicles.

And off course a general model for those (poor souls :cool: ) who don't want to play our game.

Please refer to the forum today later or tomorrow to see the playable skeleton of the game that I'm creating.

But I like these ships.

Leave what open for now?

The way I read his messages here and to me is that each faction will have access to the same ships... like they are ancient and fixed without much new building going on. Factions are distinguished by modification and colors.

I am just going by some emails Chris has sent me, but I will look at what you have posted earlier.

-M

[Blackronin]

Yes. That was the first idea from Chris and it made sense in what he first devised, but we are moving into another direction, not certain, of course, but please leave it open for now. I think that the design of your ships would be good for the basic "Earth" human empire and maybe later with some modification to some of the human spin off colonies, but we can wait to hear from Chris.

[thehaggard]

Yes. That was the first idea from Chris and it made sense in what he first devised, but we are moving into another direction, not certain, of course, but please leave it open for now. I think that the design of your ships would be good for the basic "Earth" human empire and maybe later with some modification to some of the human spin off colonies, but we can wait to hear from Chris.

Hummm... what I see on the thread is that you two have some disagreement and not a unified direction. :)

I see him saying one game, one set of ships.
I see you saying three games and several sets of ships.
I don't see anyplace where you come to agreement on this...
... but that is why I hate forums... they compartmentalize discussions.
you have a dozen discussions about ships going on in different places.

-Michael

[Blackronin]

Michael:

Trust me. Me and Chris are working in more or less the same direction. And we have agreed to try something in between. Keep looking and you will find it. :) But you can always wait to hear from him. Meanwhile I used your drawings for the test game. I hope you don't mind. I need some help in something. Please refer to the new thread I'll put in in some minutes right here.

Joaquim

[thehaggard]

Okay... will check.

[Lex]

Are you saying that each fraction will use the same set of designs...? No that's not possible by any means......

[lehcyfer]

I thought that basic types of ships are identical - that is all sides have cruisers for example, though cruisers of different races look differently.

Is that right?

[Blackronin]

That's right.
Different races have same classes, or almost same classes, but different techs, weapons and looks. That's my idea.

[Lex]

IMO the classes can remain similar, but weapons should differ greatly, otherwise what's the point of having the difference at all... As a sideword, take any example of RTS. It wasn't until the appearance of RA1 that the functions of units from different sides differed greatly, and that's when all subsequent RTS switched this way, never looking back.

[lehcyfer]

RTS I understand, but RA1?
Not everyone may know the abbreviations you use...

[Lex]

Red Alert 1

This section
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Red_Alert#Game_balancing

My idea is no two armies are the same

[lehcyfer]

Well, remembering that these are core units, and their characteristics can be tweaked by us now for different races, and that the ships can be modified by additions, the armies can and will differ - otherwise there would be no reason for choosing different races other than aesthetical ones

[thehaggard]

And I quote... again...
Also you miss the point of the core units. There will be one set of all ships for the core that will be layered for different colors/symbols to show sides. This set will have MANY layers to accommodate core ships for any number of players up to like 7 or so. I expect all races to have access to these CORE units. I also expect races to have access to expansion units that will be additional purchases. Expansion units will be slightly better than the core units to show old vs newer technologies. This frees us from having to have complete sets of ships for more than one race and allows people to play expansion races without the need to purchase complete ship sets.

I don't know how this could be any more clear. ONE set of ships for all factions. But, since I am not in the game design arena, and I only want to design ships, and I only joined this thread by request... I could design many more ships if needed...

... but it is clear from reading all the threads that you guys are NOT listening to each other. I think you all need to reduce the number of threads in the forum, and get all you conversations into more linear threads.

-The Haggard

[Blackronin]

OK, no time to look around for the precise sentence where Chris thought that I might be right about different units for different races.

So i ask. Please Chris, state here that it is a open possibility the idea for different units for different races.

I also uploaded the ships statistics in the rules of the space game. Care to see? :)

[thehaggard]

I also uploaded the ships statistics in the rules of the space game. Care to see? :)

Sure... where?
I really hate forums, having to go fish around for information. (as you state about finding a past quote) Best to have all the information in once place.

-M

[Lex]

Yea, let Chris be the judge. I'm just making suggestions anyway

[Blackronin]

Here.

http://www.ecardmodels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2146

In five minutes I'll upload the rules that make basic gaming possible.

[thehaggard]

After talking to Chris and getting a better view of the dimensions of models he is after... I have reworked some ideas... the first set in this thread were for small, 30mm minis. This new set would be for 30 to 20 CM models. The idea is simplicity for build: uniformity for modular construction, mixing and matching, and creativity of new classes from old parts; and the ability to layer detail so a person can choose simple models or highly detailed models. Once the art work is added you will know what I mean. Also, imagine the bridge wedge becoming a lifeboat...

-The Haggard

http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100352/Screen-20shot-202010-01-19-20at-2012-51-36-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12638771160001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100352/Screen-20shot-202010-01-19-20at-2012-51-55-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12638771190001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100352/Screen-20shot-202010-01-19-20at-2012-52-11-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12638771210001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100352/Screen-20shot-202010-01-19-20at-2012-56-28-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12638771230001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100352/Screen-20shot-202010-01-19-20at-2012-56-50-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12638771250001
http://gallery.me.com/michaelhaggard/100352/Screen-20shot-202010-01-19-20at-2012-57-18-20PM/web.jpg?ver=12638771270001

[ThunderChild]

Shaping up real nicely thehaggard!

[Blackronin]

This is exactly what I was thinking about, Michael. Fantastic.

[thehaggard]

I will be busy the next couple of days... so not sure when I will get a skinned version up for people to try.

Thanks all,
Michael The Haggard

[cgutzmer]

OK - Haggard is right on the money here. But so are a couple others... so let me say it again.

ALL races - every single one without exception in all cases without a doubt WILL have access to all the core vehicles that will ship with the paid core version of the game(s). This is so that anyone can buy the game and just play it with any race they want to use. I am not going to force people to buy additional items to play the core game.

However ALL races, every single one without fail will ALSO have race specific units. A one for one trade with the core units. The race specific units will always be a slight (or maybe significant in certain cases) upgrade to the core units. This is to give the game more depth and expandability.

In this fashion customers can buy just a new race and play with the core units - different races will get different pluses and minuses to the core units to give more strategy thought. I also expect that people that like the game will want to upgrade to non core units for a more fully fleshed out game.

[Blackronin]

I understand what you want and why, Chris.
What I don't understand is the need of it.
I know that I'm a bother with this, but let me expand my thoughts:

We have a core game system composed of three games.
In each of the game rules we'll add enough minis for people start playing immediately. We'll speak generically about the universe and we'll put the ships of two races (one Human and one Alien), always the same races in the 3 rulebooks so people can start playing. We will not put all the units that race can use, only the basic ones.
In future expansions we'll add more races and models.

Why limit immediately our universe by creating a rationalization to why the hell two alien races that meet each other and start shooting away should use the same units?

And if we work on having two showcase races, why not go along and those races being those in the core books?

And finally, if we are making different aspects and philosophies for each race, why give them access to the same units and vehicles, less to say infantry? If the Hecate are bug like, it will me strange to play with a humanoid squad.

I don't find that a little more effort in creating two distinct factions in the core book will endanger or weaken our product, in fact much the opposite.

For the Deep Space Game starting composition we'll need for each faction:

1 Cruiser
1 Destroyer
1 Freighter
1 Squadron

Eight models in 2D, 2,5D and 3D.

Is it too much?

[cgutzmer]

A few reasons... not everyone is into building models and just want something they can do out of box. This does not limit anything at all. Rather is allows more freedom in that a player can pick up an expansion race and use the same core models they have already printed with a new race with different abilities. Then if/when they like the race they can buy the expansion units.

Since I already agree with you on having three DIFFERENT games in the core Cosmos in Conflict Universe that can also be played together I would hope the basic game would ship with more than 4 units. A game that would be played with only four units sounds rather boring to me ;)

However I also see (after some thought) what you mean by limiting. Its probably my one for one statement. I think I will drop that premise altogether. We can design replacement units for each race but also design unique (approved in gameplay of course) units. that makes the most sense from any standpoint.

How about this.... we have a couple versions of the game for outright sale. A basic game that comes with the core units (5-7 units) that are basic and can be used to play a basic game of Deep Space Confict (Name To be determined) these units can be played with any race as well for slight variation

second version that will be the same but include race specific ships as well. it will be cheaper than buying the units individually but will allow for much higher initial game play flexibility.

I will not change my mind on including core units that can be played across all races. Customers can decide for themselves if they wish to use these or purchase the race specific units.

[Blackronin]

Chris:

As I told you, I understand what you mean and I can agree with the logic of it.

I think that I didn't make myself understand and that's my fault.

Let's forget everything else.
We have a game.
Two people play that game.
If you buy that game you want to have another person to play with. With different units so that it can be recognizable who is who. You can do it with colors, or you can do it with different forms.
You can play any race that you choose with these two groups of units.
But our universe states that these are X and Y, if you want to go with the flow of our universe.

Then we add more units for these two races X and Y and new races Z, W, etc.

What I'm saying is that when you buy the core game, you receive models for two different sides. If you just want to play with those and home made variations of those, its OK, there you have it. If you want to add more, then we also have more of those (race X and Y) and new races with different models.

I'm not denying your solution, I'm just channeling it for Universe Integrity. A little more work in the beginning, much less work as our universe expands.

[cgutzmer]

ARGH! You are so fast i cant catch up on the other posts ;)

I do see what you are saying and I do appreciate the back and forth talk. This is what makes a good end product.

I can possibly go with this solution IF every race ALWAYS has a unit with similar capabilities as every other race at its base. Statistics will of course vary a bit but every race will REQUIRE the basic units for playability. This ideaology will also allow for race specific strong (and ideally) weaker units to be estabilshed right off the bat to induce different strategies for different races.

For instance every race will have at its base:
Cruiser
Destroyer
Heavy Freighter
Freighter
Fast attack fighter
Heavy Fighter

For the gutzmerites the cruiser might be comparitively weak but the fast attack fighter exceptionally well armed

For the Roninites their destroyers might be exceptionally agile while the cruisers have weak armor/shields

All races would be reuired to have each of these ships (name would of course be different at times but the ship would be comparable) my examples above are simplistic of course and not truly representative

each race in addition might have one unique unit (maybe 2)
the gutzermites might have a heavily shielded carrier with poor weapons of its own to accomodate more of their good fighters

The roninites might have an ultra cheap frigate as an extra ship of the line

thoughts?

[Blackronin]

That is exactly what I meant. I rest my case on this.

[cgutzmer]

I concur and we are agreed - I shall forward this particular post on to the haggard (he doesnt like forums so I attempt to keep him updated) :)

I will also clean it up a bit and post it in the models section :)

[Lex]

Go for it Chris, I call this part set in stone, isn't it?

[thehaggard]

I concur and we are agreed - I shall forward this particular post on to the haggard (he doesnt like forums so I attempt to keep him updated) :)

I will also clean it up a bit and post it in the models section :)

The Haggard is among us and notified... and I got your e-mails. However, I just work up (6am here) and I have a BUSY three days ahead of me... not sure when I will work any further on these things. But rest assured, I shall develop more.

-Michael

[Blackronin]

Thanks, Michael.

Where do you live? When its 6am to you its 11pm to me. The world spins...

[thehaggard]

Thanks, Michael.

Where do you live? When its 6am to you its 11pm to me. The world spins...

I live in Pingtung, Taiwan... out in a little village called Neipu. 20 minutes from the mountains and an hour from the beaches. Life on a tropical island is great! And... someday... I will speak the language better. My wife and I are english teachers to Taiwanese students (she at a college and me as a tutor).

-Michael the Haggard

[Blackronin]

I live in Portugal. In Lisbon suburbia. 20 minutes from traffic stress and 10 minutes from the beach. I am an school teacher, but someday I'll go live in a Tropical Island too. :)

[Lex]

Close, I'm in London UK so pretty much in the same time zone as ronin, I was from Beijing originally, so also not too far from Michael :D

[cgutzmer]

Wisconsin - high of just under freezing today - you guys suck ;)

[Blackronin]

Today its cold in here too. Not as cold, but pretty cold.
Nice coincidence, Lex. You're originaly from China, or you have been in China?

[lehcyfer]

Poznan, Poland - Eastern Europe. Everything covered in 10cm of snow, -5 Celsius degrees...

[Lex]

Pretty heavy snow in Europe this year, Britain actually enjoyed a snowy Christmas :D Now that's what we really call climate change XD