A4 and US Letter PDF Compatibility?

[papersmithforge]

I read on a thread some folks have difficulty with scaling and other such issues between A4 and US Letter size. I thought as a matter of having more universal access it would be better to make model parts fit within both.

US Letter: 8.5 x 11 inches
A4: ~8.3 X 11.7

The ideal space is the area that both sheets can print within, in this case the height of US letter and the width of A4. I rounded down to 8.25 x 11 inches. I like to leave a half inch margin on all sides for the sake of ensuring all printers can readily print the parts, so the printable area is 7.25 x 10 inches.

I'm working under the assumption this would work on any printer using Adobe Reader and I'm hoping someone here can tell me whether it's true or not. If you're using printers that can handle 8.5 x 11 inches obviously you shouldn't have a problem, as the sheets I use will be that size, the only difference is that the models will have a larger margin on the right side, namely, one of 0.75 inches as opposed to the left margin of 0.5 inches.

If you had an exclusively A4 printer and you set your print preferences to non-center and no scaling, would your printer successfully print the parts or would it give you a paper size error and stop your print altogether? Keeping in mind your sheet would be oriented using the top left corner as the guide. Thanks for your input.

[billy.leliveld]

I think you have figured it out already, most of the designers use the 8X10 inch frame, I'm in Europe, using the A4 , but I never had a problem printing designs that are kept within that boundery..

[mbauer]

I've been using 7.5"x10" and this seems to work as well.

My printer does A4 printing, the 7.5 seems to work fine when doing test prints of PDFs.

Is the 7.25" width better for some reason?

Best regards,
Mike Bauer

[Zakopious]

I once received an email for designers from Fiddlers Green, dated Fri, 1 Mar 2002.
It recommended using 7.56 inches wide and 10.5 inches high for the overall size of the drawing .
I do not know if this is still the current recommendation.

[Zakopious]

The Fiddlers Green recommendation is current.

See:
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/other/For-Designers/post-it-comments.php

[Leif Ohlsson]

I have done the same calculations for mm, and arrived at 210 x 279 mm virtual paper size. Virtual, since nobody would use that size of paper. You would either use A4 which is 210 x 297, or Letter which is 216 x 279. But anything made to print on that size of paper would fit into both A4 and Letter size papers. I call this virtual paper size L4 (smallest common denominator of Letter & A4).

The size of the drawing is another matter. That depends on how large margins different types of printers will require, given that they are fed with this virtual paper size. If I format my virtual universal paper size for my typical inkjet printer, the printable area comes out as 203 x 272mm. Margins thus are 3.5mm all around. Formatted for a typical laser printer, the printable area would be smaller, and also not centered.

The Fiddler's green recommendation of 7.56 x 10.5 in. comes out as 192 x 266mm, meaning that margins for our virtual paper size are 9mm each side, and 6.5mm top & bottom, which seems a strange choice. For laser printers the top & bottom margins should be larger. This is probably a recommendation for US Letter size paper printed also on laser writers.

The 8 x 10in printing size translates into 203 x 254mm, which means margins of 3.5mm on each side, and 7.5mm top & bottom. This probably means you can print on all inkjet writers on both A4 and Letter.

Now, all these various recommendations are due, once again, to the double fact of:

1. Accomodating to a "universal" common virtual paper size of 210 x 279mm, allowing printing on both A4 and US Letter.

2. Accomodating to the varying demands for margins in various printers. You have to decide what kind of printers you definitely want to include.

I have settled on the garden variety of inkjet printers and 3.5mm margins all around. Reason is you don't want to print your paper model on a laser printer for a variety of reasons, including quality of the print, and difficulties with white glue.

Translated into inches, the printable are (drawing) then is 203 x 272 mm, or 8 x 10.7". Anything smaller than that will accomodate also printers which require larger margins. 8 x 10" (203 x 254mm) seems a good compromise if your goal is to enable printing also on all inkjet printers. For including most or all laser writers as well, 7.4 x 10" (188 x 254mm) is probably safer, since this would give 11mm margins on both sides and a total of 25mm for top& bottom.

Any points of view on this?

Leif

PS. In case this comes out as if I know everything about this subject, let me tell you that I'm very grateful that this query came up. It made me discover that I have indeed defined the "universal" virtual paper size "L4" I am ranting about above wrongly in a rescaling & recolouring project I am finishing right now. I will have to go back and do some adjusting. Tedious, but absolutely necessary. So thanks!

[Leif Ohlsson]

Just had a look at the Fiddler's Green's recommendations (http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/other/For-Designers/post-it-comments.php) in original. A bit furhter down in the text it says that (my emphasis):

•All pages are 7.56 width x10.5 long and 200dpi

•Parts are placed just a tad short of the side margins and 1/2 from the height margins.

They thus calculate with a virtual page size of 192 x 267mm. The printable area would be (depending on the interpretation of "a tad") something like7.4 x 9.5 in (188 x 241mm). This seems a bit too much, if you goal is simply to accomodate printing on most kind of printers and both Letter & A4. The 11mm margins each side are appropriate, but the 38mm total margins top & bottom together seems a bit generous.

Anyone not designing specifically for Fiddler's Green would probably be better off with the 7.4 x 10" format, or 8 x 10". See above.

[Rubenandres77]

Thanks for bringing this issue to discussion.

It is a bit of a problem when standards do not meet reality.

Here in Colombia the official standard that was adopted years ago is A4.
But.... you know what? In real life we still use North American Letter size.

Meaning official doesn't equal real life so much.

I understand there is only a handful of countries that still use Letter.
I live in one of those countries, and getting pre-cut A4 paper is really difficult. Either I have to buy bigger paper and cut it down, or shrink the scale to fit.

Some designers don't think about this issues when they prepare the kits, and is understandable, since they go for the bigger audience.

But is is very nice when there are designers that think about the problems of the minority, and I'm really thankful when I see a kit has enough empty spaces in the borders so that I can print in Letter.

When I come across an A4 kit that has crowded pages, with all parts going from border to border, I find it very hard to print in Letter, and have to use another solution: print on A3... Or be happy with a slight reduction of the model printing in letter.

Printing on A3 solves all my problems, and I don't have to care about page size or the borders of the page. Don't even have to fit the print size.

Buuuut..... I don't have an A3 printer, I have to go to a copy shop. And they use laser prints. I love the finish of the laser print (except when it cracks at the folds) but that's another topic.

Now, actually I recall they don't use A3 (we don't have "A" papers here) they use "Double Letter" (or "Tabloid"). In any case fitting one A4 page in a tabloid page resolves all my printing problems.


I support the use of enough space on the borders so that the kit can be printed in both sizes without problems. As Leif noted above, is a bit of a work for the designer (I'm going through the same issue fitting some pages of a kit for a kit that will be released soon) but I think the end result is really worth the effort. The user will appreciate it. And you save yourself a lot of questions later from the users ("Will you make it available in letter?" "can someone help me to print in in letter" etc...)
(And, in my own personal aesthetic and totally arbitrary opinion, this forces the designer to have a nicer presentation without overcrowded pages presenting the kit in a cleaner way)

[John Wagenseil]

If you live in US print A4 full size on sheets of legal paper or card stock which is 8 1/2 by 14.

[Lex]

I for one am perfectly satisfied to sacrifice a little bit of scale accuracy just to build a model, if I have to pring on A4 a model intended for letter paper... Or it's just me, not being rigorous enough about scales

[codex34]

Wouldn't it be better to have less top and left margin?
Are there any printers left that actually need a margin at all?

Now your talking about .pdf, how many people choose to print at 'actual' size rather than just click print (or even know that you can), you can assume all you want to that everyone will print actual size, and you can even attempt to specifically tell them to, but they inevitably never do.
I've always seen .pdf as a vector format, it doesn't matter what the print scale is, it comes out good quality anyway, so to use raster images in .pdf they have to have a larger dpi number to produce the same quality as vector.
When you get below 300 dpi with raster images you will get quality issues with .pdf if they aren't printed at 'actual' size, it doesn't mater what virtual size you try to use.

My solution is to always supply both the images and .pdf files, I do this for 2 reasons, 1) makes recolours easier and people can 'adjust' the sheets if parts get cropped during print, 2) if you can print it, you can scan it, a .pdf will NOT 'secure' your images from being extracted, it's supposed to just make printing easier, so why not release the images with the .pdf.

Universal printable areas and margins are for the raster images, if your using .pdf then increase the dpi
If you don't want people to extract and recolour your work, then don't release it, .pdfs aren't a form of security from theft, I've got a scanner.

[ghshinn]

Lex, I'm not careful about scales either. I often tell people that the scale is approximately x, and they seem satisfied with that.

Garland

[papersmithforge]

I refer to the following article on minimum printable margins (http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/acc/hp800/about.htm) from DELL tech support regarding HP printers (I own an HP printer, thus my conclusions). The largest margin they denote there is 0.46 in. or 3.2 mm. What Leif determined as 3.5 mm and I rounded to 0.5 in. I simply took the route of not attempting to define each margin to a minimal amount. I took the largest margin and applied it throughout the whole page.

@mbauer: That is how I came up with my 7.25 number (rounded down)

@codex34: I don't see how any of this relates to security. I'm not particularly concerned with that. Moreso, I just don't want to force someone to have to scale their print if they want it to be as close to ideal as possible (i.e. the original), and also to facilitate the people who purchase/download one of my models that may not find themselves with Letter paper on hand. It's not a real bother to me to take them into consideration, and if I can't fit something onto one page the obvious solution is to add another.

I'm including a diagram for the sake of clarity. I hope it helps you Leif, your explanation helped me see that what I thought is obviously logical and can make sense to someone else. This diagram shows the sizes in both SI and Imperial of A4, Letter, and L4 (which I now comically refer to as Leif 4) along with the printable area that I computed using 1/2 inch margins. I rounded it down to 7.25 x 10 inches, for the sake of using 1/4 inch measurements, I don't really like 7.268 as a number.

[GreMir]

Just for the record - 0.46in actually is 11.69mm...

Every printer has different margins and grab paper a little bit differently so customizing your page for one printer, might create a problem for another, but if you fit your model within 7.25" x 10" box and center it on the page, you will be able to print it both on A4 and Letter size without cropping and printer margins will not matter.

[papersmithforge]

Thank you for the catch Gremir, I inadvertently transposed numbers. What I meant to say is that Leif used the smallest margin of 3.2 mm and I used the largest margin of 0.46 in. both of us rounding up to the nearest half measurement of 3.5 mm and 0.5 in. I would say that on my printer if any of your parts fell towards the bottom border Leif I would likely be cutting off a significant portion of them (without scaling). This was my reason for choosing 0.5 as the margin on an L4 sheet. A brief internet search did not yield anyone who had margins in excess of 0.5 inches. From a printer manufacturing point of view that would tend to make sense as a lot of writing formats (collegiate standards such as MLA and others) rarely define anything be printed outside of a 1/2 inch margin, so you would likely build your printer to that tolerance.

[Rubenandres77]

...
I'm including a diagram for the sake of clarity. I hope it helps you Leif, your explanation helped me see that what I thought is obviously logical and can make sense to someone else. This diagram shows the sizes in both SI and Imperial of A4, Letter, and L4 (which I now comically refer to as Leif 4) along with the printable area that I computed using 1/2 inch margins. I rounded it down to 7.25 x 10 inches, for the sake of using 1/4 inch measurements, I don't really like 7.268 as a number.

If only by a couple of milimeters it is almost the same solution I adopted in the Ford Tri-motor:)
78596
I believe that's the most practical solution for both designers and modelists without going into much trouble in any end.

All that's needed is a simple note:
"Dear modelist, this kit can be printed on both A4 and Letter sizes.
Just send the page at 100% (no scale/no fit to page) and don't worry: nothing will be cropped and it will be at the proper scale"


Hopefully, it will work for everbody.

[Leif Ohlsson]

Papersmithforge (what an awkward handle... hereafter I'll use "PSF" - got a name or something?); Ruben:

I concur and learn. This has been a good and productive exchange. The outcome of this thread ought to go somewhere more permanent. PSF or Ruben, how about you do a short article in the article section, reviewing and refering to this thread, and reiterating the basic figures arrived at? Setting the standard, so to speak?

Leif

[dell_zantoz]

If you live in US print A4 full size on sheets of legal paper or card stock which is 8 1/2 by 14.

I agree with him on this one. Just print it on legal size format and they should fit right inside. You do not have to worry about margins and stuff because the width is wide enough and the lenght is long enough for the A4 size print. If you are out of letter size card stock, legal size would do just fine too. Just my two cents.

[Rubenandres77]

Papersmithforge (what an awkward handle... hereafter I'll use "PSF" - got a name or something?); Ruben:

I concur and learn. This has been a good and productive exchange. The outcome of this thread ought to go somewhere more permanent. PSF or Ruben, how about you do a short article in the article section, reviewing and refering to this thread, and reiterating the basic figures arrived at? Setting the standard, so to speak?

Leif

Leif, I doubt I could write something coherent in the near future about the subject http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e376/ruben77/icons/sweatdrop1.gif

[Leif Ohlsson]

I just wish to report that I have remade all 21 pages of a little re-scaling & recolouring project I aim to finish soon. Pages now conform to a virtual paper size of "L4" (thanks for the alternative title, PSF, but it's a little bit longish, isn't it...?), i.e. 210 x 279mm, and a printable area of 11mm less, all around, i.e. 188 x 257mm.

Since I'm not hampered by ungainly fractions of inches, I can allow myself the maximum area possible, given the restraints we have discussed.

This will, from now on, be my standard size. Many thanks for the most advanced discussion of this theme so far.

Did I mention that I had to divide up a very complicated part in two halves, just because of this, and add another page? Oh, well. Good for one's karma, I guess.

Leif

PSF, how about you picking up the torch and write your findings up in the article section? Your figures, and the very explanatory image they refer to, ought to be preserved at an easily accessible spot.

[papersmithforge]

Sorry about the handle Leif, it's the title of my website. I'd be happy to recreate this thread with a fuller explanation in the Tutorials section of the Design thread. The Articles wiki seems a bit daunting, and I'm not big on editing stuff like that, not to mention geared more towards construction than design.

[Leif Ohlsson]

Go, PSF, go. But edit it hard, to your own liking. The important thing is the pedagogic image, the principle, and the crucial numbers arrived at. And to have those around, in a readily accessible way.

Thanks, Leif

[Leif Ohlsson]

I just made an interesting experiment: On my Mac, and in Adobe Illustrator, I defined a default A4 document. Margins then turned out to be 6.5mm each side (13mm total), and 6.5mm top plus 14.5mm bottom (21mm total). This setting is obviously intended to incorporate just what it says in my Mac Page Setup window: "All printers".

If I define the same A4 document for specifically my own Epson D88 (a garden variety inkjet printer), I get a document with 3.5mm margins all round (7mm total in both directions, which is markedly larger printable area).

Now, if I were to apply the smaller "All printers" setting margins, to our universal (A4 and Letter) - the now famous or infamous L4 - paper size 210 x 279mm, a quick calculation renders the universally L4 printable area to be 197 x 258 mm (ca. 7.75 x 10.1 in).

The inkjet L4 printable area still is markedly larger, namely 203 x 272mm (8 x 10.7 in).

This is a calculation, and I have no way of trying it. But it would be interesting if others made the same or similar experiment. Perhaps someone with several different printer drivers (both lasers and inkjet).

The reason for suggesting this is that the maximum size universally printable are suggested in this thread may be unnecessarily - albeit only slightly, but still - conservative. Why not try to establish some really hard knowledge, particularly since this is a problem affecting everyone here?

Leif

[papersmithforge]

Why not try to establish some really hard knowledge, particularly since this is a problem affecting everyone here?Challenge accepted. Please prepare yourself for a lengthy explanation. Every printer defines a media print area. It locates this area by defining an origin point and then specifying a width and height from the origin point in which it can print. It varies from printer to printer. As an example PDF printers tend to have an origin at 0, 0 and a printable area that constitutes the entire width and height of the page.

I was curious what the printable area of my printer is. I found the specifications, and it matched with the technical data listed by the article from DELL technical support that I listed previously. However, I went one step further and decided to determine it using code. Utilizing the code listed here (http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/2d/printing/printable.html) as a building block, I altered it slightly to instead print a page from any of your printers that would calculate the left, right, top, and bottom margins in both inches and millimeters for whichever printer you specify.

In my case the printer is an HP Deskjet 820Cse, and the results on a Letter (8.5 in. x 11 in.) size page were:
Left: 0.25 in >>> 6.35 mm
Right: 0.25 in. >>> 6.35 mm
Top: 0.039 in. >>> 1.0159 mm
Bottom: 0.46 in. >>> 11.684 mm
These match the specification listed by DELL (rounded as necessary). So, if anyone cares to participate in this survey to determine the "universal" print area, read on for what to do.

Firstly, you need to know how to compile Java source code. Second, you require the source code:/*
* Copyright (c) 1995, 2008, Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved.
*
* Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
* modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
* are met:
*
* - Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
* notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
*
* - Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
* notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
* documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
*
* - Neither the name of Oracle or the names of its
* contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived
* from this software without specific prior written permission.
*
* THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS
* IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
* THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
* PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR
* CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
* EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
* PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR
* PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF
* LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING
* NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS
* SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
*/


import java.awt.*;
import java.awt.event.*;
import javax.swing.*;
import java.awt.print.*;

public class HelloWorldPrinter implements Printable, ActionListener {


public int print(Graphics g, PageFormat pf, int page) throws
PrinterException {

if (page > 0) { /* We have only one page, and 'page' is zero-based */
return NO_SUCH_PAGE;
}

/* User (0,0) is typically outside the imageable area, so we must
* translate by the X and Y values in the PageFormat to avoid clipping
*/
Graphics2D g2d = (Graphics2D)g;
g2d.translate(pf.getImageableX(), pf.getImageableY());

/* My alterations for computations of media print area */
Double leftMargin = pf.getImageableX() / 72.0;
Double topMargin = pf.getImageableY() / 72.0;
Double rightMargin = (pf.getWidth() - pf.getImageableWidth() - pf.getImageableX()) / 72.0;
Double bottomMargin = (pf.getHeight() - pf.getImageableHeight() - pf.getImageableY()) / 72.0;

/* Now we perform our rendering */
g.drawString("Left: " + leftMargin + " in. >>> " + (leftMargin * 25.4) + " mm", 100, 100);
g.drawString("Right: " + rightMargin + " in. >>> " + (rightMargin * 25.4) + " mm", 100, 150);
g.drawString("Top: " + topMargin + " in. >>> " + (topMargin * 25.4) + " mm", 100, 200);
g.drawString("Bottom: " + bottomMargin + " in. >>> " + (bottomMargin * 25.4) + " mm", 100, 250);

/* tell the caller that this page is part of the printed document */
return PAGE_EXISTS;
}

public void actionPerformed(ActionEvent e) {
PrinterJob job = PrinterJob.getPrinterJob();
job.setPrintable(this);
boolean ok = job.printDialog();
if (ok) {
try {
job.print();
} catch (PrinterException ex) {
/* The job did not successfully complete */
}
}
}

public static void main(String args[]) {

UIManager.put("swing.boldMetal", Boolean.FALSE);
JFrame f = new JFrame("Hello World Printer");
f.addWindowListener(new WindowAdapter() {
public void windowClosing(WindowEvent e) {System.exit(0);}
});
JButton printButton = new JButton("Media Print Area");
printButton.addActionListener(new HelloWorldPrinter());
f.add("Center", printButton);
f.pack();
f.setVisible(true);
}
}Lastly, the tiny Java App will basically create a window with a button on it that says "Media Print Area". Click the button and your standart Print Dialog will appear. Select the printer you want to use. BE CAREFUL AND MAKE SURE YOU SELECT TO PRINT FROM PAGE 1 TO PAGE 1 !!! On my computer if you select All for the printing options it tries to print 9999 pages. Print your results and post them back here along with the printer you use. Hopefully, we can collect enough data from various printers to determine a "universal" media print area.

[papersmithforge]

I've modified the source code to no longer print the page. It SHOULDN'T print the page. Assuming it does engage your printer, the page will print blank so no ink will be wasted. Instead, now the program generates a nice little pop-up that gives you all the relevant data./*
* Copyright (c) 1995, 2008, Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved.
*
* Complete copyright available in previous post
*/


import java.awt.*;
import java.awt.event.*;
import javax.swing.*;
import java.awt.print.*;
import javax.print.attribute.*;

public class HelloWorldPrinter implements Printable, ActionListener {


public int print(Graphics g, PageFormat pf, int page) throws
PrinterException {

if (page > 0) { /* We have only one page, and 'page' is zero-based */
return NO_SUCH_PAGE;
}

/* My alterations for computations of media print area */
Double pageWidth = pf.getWidth() / 72.0;
Double pageHeight = pf.getHeight() / 72.0;
Double leftMargin = pf.getImageableX() / 72.0;
Double topMargin = pf.getImageableY() / 72.0;
Double rightMargin = (pf.getWidth() - pf.getImageableWidth() - pf.getImageableX()) / 72.0;
Double bottomMargin = (pf.getHeight() - pf.getImageableHeight() - pf.getImageableY()) / 72.0;

JOptionPane.showMessageDialog(null, "Width: " + pageWidth + " in. >>> " + (pageWidth * 25.4) + " mm\nHeight: " + pageHeight + " in. >>> " + (pageHeight * 25.4) + " mm\nLeft: " + leftMargin + " in. >>> " + (leftMargin * 25.4) + " mm\nTop: " + topMargin + " in. >>> " + (topMargin * 25.4) + " mm\nRight: " + rightMargin + " in. >>> " + (rightMargin * 25.4) + " mm\nBottom: " + bottomMargin + " in. >>> " + (bottomMargin * 25.4) + " mm", "Results", JOptionPane.INFORMATION_MESSAGE);
System.exit(0);

/* tell the caller that this page is part of the printed document */
return PAGE_EXISTS;
}

public void actionPerformed(ActionEvent e) {
PrinterJob job = PrinterJob.getPrinterJob();
job.setPrintable(this);
boolean ok = job.printDialog();
if (ok) {
try {
job.print();
} catch (PrinterException ex) {
/* The job did not successfully complete */
}
}
}

public static void main(String args[]) {

UIManager.put("swing.boldMetal", Boolean.FALSE);
JFrame f = new JFrame("Media Print Area Calculator");
f.addWindowListener(new WindowAdapter() {
public void windowClosing(WindowEvent e) {System.exit(0);}
});
JButton printButton = new JButton("Proceed");
printButton.addActionListener(new HelloWorldPrinter());
f.add("Center", printButton);
f.pack();
f.setVisible(true);
}
}

[Leif Ohlsson]

That is a serious response PSF. I wish I knew enough to participate. As it is I can only wish you luck. You are doing a good thing, I hope some knowledgeable people picks up the gauntlet, and I do look forward to the result of this.

Leif

[papersmithforge]

In order to facilitate users like Leif who don't know how to compile Java programs I went ahead and included the compiled source. The only reason I hadn't was of course some people are hesitant to run programs they don't know about for fear of system corruption and/or viruses. In any case, if you feel bold enough, the zip file attachment contains the compiled program as a JAR file which is the native "EXE" of Java.

Most people these days who use the internet have the Java Virtual Machine installed on their computer (even if they're not necessarily aware of it), just be sure to update it if that's not the case. If it's set up properly typically you can just right click on the JAR file and select the Open option and it will run the program automatically. It works this way on Debian Linux as well. If that doesn't work for you then you'll need to open your command prompt/shell (or in Windows XP go to the Run command on your start menu) and type the following:

java -jar "C:\PathToTheFile\PrintableArea.jar"

The PathToTheFile represents the directory where you downloaded and extracted the zip file's JAR file to. In my case it's "C:\Documents and Settings\User\My Documents\PrintableArea.jar"

Hopefully, this will help the less technically inclined.

[Leif Ohlsson]

Much obliged, and equally impressed. Results of double-clicking "HelloWorldPrinter.class" are as follows:

Width: 8.26 in - 209.9mm
Height: 11.69 in - 297.0 mm
Left: 0.25 in - 6.35mm
Top: 0.25 in - 6.35mm
Right: 0.25 in - 6.35mm
Bottom: 0.57 in - 14.5mm

This is for printer Epson Stylus D88

HelloWorldPrinter$1.class did not work on my computer.

You understand that I haven't the faintest idea what I'm doing here, just following instructions. But I am impressed by the result which coincides with my result for "all printers".

I still think I can get a larger area for the Epson than your programme indicates, though.

Did this help at all? For me, it confirms that the universal printable area (all printers, Letter as well as A4 paper sizes) is

Width 210 - 13 = 197 mm
Height 279 - 21 = 258 mm

Is this a correct deduction?

Leif

[papersmithforge]

I would say your deduction is correct in the sense that your conclusions are correct for your specific printer, but you can note the obvious difference in print margins from your printer and my own. To make a more informed decision, as in through experimental method, a larger data set is required. So it would be of benefit if we could get more people to participate.

To empirically test your print area I can suggest the following: go into a graphical applicaton such as Inkscape, and draw a gray rectangle whose border touches the border of the page. Then draw a white rectangle to the size of the specification margins and in the proper offset from the upper left hand corner. Finally, shrink the white rectangle by 10% or so. Print that page. The printout will not appear as designed because unless your printer can do borderless printing you will have a white border on your page as opposed to a gray border. Now you can physically measure how much your Epson can print.

Trying to squeeze out as much area as you can shouldn't strictly be your goal Leif. That would make more sense if you were a factory attempting to produce the most parts on a sheet because of printing, cutting, and other such costs. Most of these parts have to be physically cut by humans, the placement of the parts is more dictated by comfort and sensibility (i.e. similar parts on a similar page) than efficiency in space usage.

Also, continually trying to squeeze out the most may work for your particular printer setup, but someone else on the forum may have a printer whose margins are larger. Therefore, it would be in their interest to have a smaller area. At least in my case I'm attempting to determine universal compatibility as opposed to maximum print area for a series of printers. If you want to see it from a different perspective compute the percentage of area you're actually squeezing out. You'll probably note that it's no more than a 10% increase, which in the grand scheme of things given a rectangular shape, a 10% increase isn't all that great a gain if it's done proportionally on all sides.

[Leif Ohlsson]

Wise words to which I do subscribe wholeheartedly. My remark really was off the point. I'll study the proposed experiment (which I have carried out on my own, albeit less systematically).

My problem, at its root, is not to squeeze as much as possible into a given area (I hate that; as you say, it is a consequence of commercial printing economics), but to be able to know with certainty how large parts you can squeeze into a format that I might still safely offer to others.

I run into large parts a lot in the 1/16 scale I am trying to make more popular. :)

Leif

[Art Deco]

This is a great idea! I think it was a good move to compile the script. It's easy to use, and took me about thirty seconds from download to results.

I encourage others to contribute to the dataset - the more who contribute, the higher the level of confidence in the findings! The final result will be very useful for designers.

My results:

Printer: Canon Pixma iP1180

Width: 8.5 in >>> 215.899 mm
Height: 11.0 in >>> 279.4 mm
Left: 0.2516 in >>> 6.392 mm
Top: 0.1167 in >>> 2.963 mm
Right: 0.2483 in >>> 6.3076 mm
Bottom: 0.1983 in >>> 5.03766 mm

[SCEtoAUX]

I rounded to three decimal places.

Canon Pixma MG5220
Width 8.5 in >>> 215.9mm
Height 11.0 in >>> 279.4mm
Left 0.252 in >>> 6.392mm
Top 0.117 in >>> 2.963mm
Right 0.248 in >>> 6.308mm
Bottom 0.198 in >>> 5.038mm

Epson Stylus NX515
Width 8.5 in >>> 215.9mm
Height 11.0 in >>> 279.4mm
Left 0.117 in >>> 2.963mm
Top 0.117 in >>> 2.963mm
Right 0.117 in >>> 2.963mm
Bottom 0.117 in >>> 2.963mm

[papersmithforge]

Change the app slightly so that now when the results dialog box appears you can select the text and press Ctrl + C to copy it to your clipboard. This way people won't have to waste time transcribing the text. Also, it now rounds to three decimal places to avoid the extra text.

[Leif Ohlsson]

You've started something good here, PSF! - L.

[codex34]

Epson stylus D68
Width: 8.268 in. >>> 210.000 mm
Height: 11.693 in. >>> 297.000 mm
Left: 0.117 in. >>> 2.963 mm
Top: 0.117 in. >>> 2.963 mm
Right: 0.118 in. >>> 2.990 mm
Bottom: 0.118 in. >>> 2.995 mm
Spec says, Bottom margin is expanded to 3 mm when paper dimension is defined by using command (ESC (S and Remote “SN”), otherwise it is not expanded (12.5 mm)

Leif, your results are wrong? earlier in the thread you had 3mm all around, which is the spec on the c87/d88 but your results say it's 14.5m bottom margin and >6mm sides.

[Leif Ohlsson]

codex

No. If I format for D88 specifically, I get 3.5 mm all around. The 6.5 mm sides and 14.5 mm bottom is for "all printers".

I'll do another measurement with my printer turned on. I might have forgotten that last time... (stupid, stupid!)

No. I still get the same:

Width: 8,264 in. >>> 209,903 mm
Height: 11,694 in. >>> 297,039 mm
Left: 0,250 in. >>> 6,350 mm
Top: 0,250 in. >>> 6,350 mm
Right: 0,250 in. >>> 6,350 mm
Bottom: 0,569 in. >>> 14,464 mm

This I believe to be a fault in the program (or my handling of it, since others get appropriate figures). I know for sure that the Epson D88 will give you 3.5mm margins all around, by my earlier, manual, measurements. So pay no attention to this.

Leif

[codex34]

Oh that's ok, thought you might be posting for another printer.
I think what your getting there is a windows thing, the printimage object is settable as well as readable, so if you set the margins in one program, windows retains those margins until you set them again. Not entirely sure though.
You could try printing a full A4 blank image with photoshop and trying again see if it changes, probably won't though if you set the margins in the driver.
I'll dig out my universal 'print actual size' image, see if it's any use to you.

[papersmithforge]

Not to revive a possibly dead thread, but I wanted to thank you all for your contributions. Secondly, I've made some update/progress and rethought some things so I wanted to also apologize for letting the thread go untouched for a year. I was hoping to get a much larger data set but, not many people participated. Following are the conclusions made given the data provided.

On a US Letter sheet regardless of printing device the margins should be set at the following:

Top -> 9/32 in
Left -> 9/32 in
Right -> 17/32 in
Bottom -> 1/2 in

On an A4 size sheet the margins should be set as follows:

Top -> 7 mm
Left -> 8 mm
Right -> 7 mm
Bottom -> 30 mm

In both of these cases from your particular PDF program of choice, regardless of the sheet size you're given, you would print at 100% scale and the margins would take into account the print area that is available. Whether you're given an A4 or Letter sheet or whether you're printing onto an A4 or Letter sheet now becomes irrelevant.

Obviously, if you adjust the scale of your model this no longer holds true. For the sake of the curious you lose about 15% of the page on a Letter sheet and about 18% of the sheet on A4.

Furthermore, in the hopes that more people will participate I took the idea that I suggested to Leif about printing and physically measuring the page and incorporated it into a PDF. The reason I avoided this early on was for fear of confusion that people might measure incorrectly and other such human errors. However, given the points made by codex and Leif about the output of the program and printer drivers, it would seem that programmatic results should also be viewed with some scrutiny.

So what I've done is create two pdfs. One is done to A4 size, the other is done to Letter size. Each of the files contains two pages. Each of the pages contain 4 rulers on the margin. One page uses a ruler that measures 32nds of an inch, the other page uses a ruler that measures millimeters. If you print it front and back you have both units available to you and you'll only use one page.

So how do the pages work? Simple, as stipulated before you need to print from your PDF program at 100% scale and select the appropriate page size (A4 for the A4 pdf and Letter for the Letter pdf). Your printer will not print the entire ruler, instead it will print whatever it is physically able to print. Your job is basically to see which is the first tick mark that appears at each margin.

I will list my printer as an example, programmatically the margins were determined to be 0.040 on the top, 0.25 on the left and right, and 0.460 on the bottom. These measurements also agree with the technical data supplied by the printer manufacturer for a Letter size page. Lastly, when I printed the Letter PDF on my printer (both front and back to get both rulers in millimeters and inches) I could visually verify that the top margin was given as 2/32 of an inch, the left and right margins were 9/32 of an inch, and the bottom margin was 15/32 of an inch. Flipping the page over it also agreed that the top margin was 2 mm, the left and right were 7 mm, and the bottom was 12 mm. Thus, I can make the conclusion that everything I've learned and observed agrees and therefore in my case I have more than reasonable results.

Obviously those of you who are wary of downloading a foreign script and executing it shouldn't. However, you can now still contribute by simply printing and taking note of your results. Assuming you don't perform a misread I would assume the physical measurements to be more reliable than those produced by the script.

Keep in mind, what you're looking for is the first visible tick mark closest to the respective margin, NOT the first number you can read. On my bottom margin for instance I can see the number 14, but the first tick mark I can see is the one that belongs to 15, so THAT is my measurement.

If I receive more substantial data I'll update once again, but for now I'll work with the ones that I've determined programatically. Thanks again everyone.

[jagolden01]

Just stay at 7" x 10" and it'll be fine. Simple as that.

[Leif Ohlsson]

@ Papersmithforge (what an awkward handle - any first name or such, in a signature or so?):

That is a really useful and simple device. Thank you!! Have used, will save. Result is, for my printer, 3.5 mm all around. Confirmed.

@ Jagolden01 (what an awkward handle - any first name or such, in a signature or so?):

7" x 10" = 17.8 x 25.4 cm. Which surely is fine and safe for printing on all kinds of printers. For inkjet printing you could go up to 19.7 x 26.6 cm, which works for both A4 and Letter. On inkjet printers.

Thanks for keeping this discussion alive.

Leif

[jagolden01]

Leif,

Don't understand the "awkward handle" thing.

Also, how can it be said that the "determined measurements" will work for ALL inkjets. Rather a broad statement without actual samples to back it up.

[papersmithforge]

Just stay at 7" x 10" and it'll be fine. Simple as that.

Also, how can it be said that the "determined measurements" will work for ALL inkjets. Rather a broad statement without actual samples to back it up.It isn't my desire to sound rude or start a flame war or anything of the sort jagolden01, that said, you essentially made a sweeping statement in your previous post and then try to point out that logic fallacy in another's argument.

The purpose of this thread is precisely to try and gather as many samples as possible so as to make an informed conclusion. You chose not to provide samples from your particular printer and I respect that. The measurements I have determined as "universal" have been computed from the 20 or so different printer's data that was made available to me (on this forum and others). Also, I have looked at data from various printer manufacturers available on their websites, not extensively, but I have indeed surveyed them.

I can make available the dataset, but that wouldn't serve much purpose as I would imagine most folks are interested in the result rather than the work.

@Leif: I have included my nickname in my signature now, so Mig will do just fine, and happy to know you're still keeping an eye on the thread.

[rjm]

I have an old iMac driving an hpdeskjet 920c. I suppose Carl (goldenbear) could
tell me how old and outdated that is! I don't see any to set margins.
On letter paper at 100% and fit to print set to none I get the following:
Top first mark is 1, Left is 9, Right is 8 and bottom is 16 in 32nds.
Top first mark is 4, Left is 7, Right is 7 and bottom is 12 in mms.
On A4 paper Top first mark is 2, Left is 4, Right is 4 and bottom is 15 in 32nds.
Top first mark is 2, Left is 4, Right is 4 and bottom is 12 in mms.
Sometimes I have to tell the printer I'm using Legal paper but deselect
centering to get the length to print in full on A4 paper.
Do these numbers tell me anything? (Other than buying a new printer,
that is).

[papersmithforge]

That's alright rjm, and thatnks for contributing, I myself have an HP Deskjet 820 Cse so I'm running even more ancient tech. What that tells me is that the area I determined should successfully print on your printer regardless of paper size. Although I will highlight something that seems to be amiss. Your A4 sheet all works as it should, but your Letter sheet seems to have a discrepancy. The left, right, and bottom margins are fine in the sense that if we convert from inches to millimeters or vice-versa we get the numbers that are there. However, when we convert the top margin's 1/32 of an inch we don't get anywhere near 4 mm. So either your printer decided to print more on one cycle or maybe it didn't track the paper correctly on one of those two prints. My HP has some issues with gripping the paper. I have to physically push it into the feeder with my hand to get it to cycle.

Thanks again for helping rjm.

Assuming you can resolve the issue of the top margin, these numbers also tell you the maximum page area available to your particular printer. So if you were designing stuff for yourself you could maximize the size and placement of pieces. This way you wouldn't chop off anything inadvertently or have unnecessary unused space.

I find the centering command to be unreliable so I try to avoid it altogether, because again that all depends on printer setups and maximum print area and stuff your average user might not think of. When you center it may shift the page downwards which is why some of it may get cut off.

[rjm]

Thanks Mig,
Actually the numbers I gave are what I thought you were interested in, that is
the first full mark that had a number associated with it.
On both sides of both pieces of paper the printing starts at 2mm from the top
and stops printing at 12 mm from the bottom. This bottom measurement is
what causes me to select Legal size paper to print on A4 and Letter size paper
without losing the full print at the bottom. The Left and right sides of the A4 sheet
print to less than 4mm from the sides, I put the paper in the printer right up
against the right side of the tray since it (the tray) is Letter size width. This is
useful when the model has something to be printed on the back so that it is
in registration with the front. The Left and Right sides of the Letter are both
at 6mm from the sides.
To me this is consistent from page to page so I think the printer is "grabbing"
the paper the same way every time. The only time I have trouble starting a
page correctly is on photo paper, sometimes it gets really messed up.
I had an older hpdeskwriter that had provisions for setting the margins, but
this one doesn't as far as I know. So I'm stuck with what I have. Most models
I download seem to be ok, but not all. Some don't have a problem going to
a different scale than what is advertised by doing a "fit to" what ever paper
they are using, but if all would agree on whatever works on both A4 and
Letter size IMHO we wouldn't have to.
By the way I bought the "Bear" from eCardModels and printed it at 1/72nd
scale which is big enough for me.
Thanks for this thread.
Bob