N&A Tift's Turret ship (Confederate Monitor)

[ct ertz]

With Shawn off working on a special project I decided to take a moment away from the construction of parts for that project and male a vessel I had long wondered about, the Confederate Monitor!

Researcher and all around great guy John Wallis has sent me some more plans, ships built or proposed by Nelson and Asa Tift of New Orleans. You will recognize their names in association with the famed CSS Mississippi.

After the success of the Monitor, Sec. of Navy Mallory asked the Tifts for help in designing a Confederate turret ship. John Wallis used the basic construction methods used on the Mississippi to reconstruct this ship. It is not thought that the turret would have been round, but rather a shape more in keeping with Confederate production capabilities. For turning, passably something like a RR turn table would have been built into the deck.

Armaments would likely have been two large rifled guns and the thickness of the armor would have been 3 inches (although the turret may have been doubled to six inches.)

So, her it is, the Tift Turret ship.

[ct ertz]

A few more pics.:)

[ct ertz]

And a few more.:)

[CSNIronclad]

Mr Ertz,
I have purchased copies of most of your models of CSS Ironclads and wish to say that you have done a superlative job in the recreation of these vessels.
In your work and histories, you credit Mr John Wallis as providing the primary source for your plans. In my extensive studies of this period, my main reference point has always been Dr Robert Holcombe of the Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, GA and his thesis on "The Evolution of Confederate Ironclad Design". In this work, he mentions all of the vessels you have worked on, but in most cases there are no actual plans or only partial plans of the vessels that exist.
I was hopeful if you could give me a reference to talk to Mr Wallis so that I might determine how he found these plans.
Thank you

[Paperwarrior]

CT,

Very interesting ship. I find the turret an interesting design, too. It makes sense to keep the turret "simple" in keeping with the industrial capabilities and putting it on a RR type turn table. It would be interesting if the system would be strong enough for the Brookes Rifles and the like.

I look forward to seeing your progress with this one. Thanks, Jeff

[cdavenport]

Is this going to be a full hull model, CT?

[rebelatsea]

That was quick Corey.

[rebelatsea]

CSNIronclad, Hello. Yup Bob's plans are a good starting point, He was mi inspiration to start the project which has taken more years than I like to get anywhere near completion. Attached is a list of my info sources for your and everyone's benefit.

[rebelatsea]

James H Warner designed a turretship later in the war. I use the term turretship, rather than monitor because in the context of the onflit of 1861-65 CSN designs differed in having a hull proper, instead of the armoured raft surmounting a submerged underhull favoured by the USN and Russian navies..

[ct ertz]

Thanks guys. John has been of great help in so many of my ship models. He has taken the vast amount of research and has compiled three way drawings based on that research. Like many of you, I have come across some of the research available, however, with few pans actually out there, it is nice that John Wallis has taken that next step. As I have mentioned before, one day (soon I hope) a new book will be available for all us CSN junkies, and I can hardly wait. John has plans to publish his book and make it available for all of us.

Thanks John, and by the way, I also have the little Tift river ironclad about done in digital as well.

CT

[ct ertz]

That one by Warner is the one I actually read/heard about at some point, but I find the Tift turret ship more interesting (and possible). Warners turrit would have been a tough hall for the South I think, at least with out the full support of the ship builders in Scotland and England.
CT

[ct ertz]

CSNIronclad, welcome to the forum, by the way. And thank you for your kind coments about my model designs.
CT

[rebelatsea]

The conning position on the Tift turretship would have turned with the turret I think. The assembly would have been as simple as possible in keeping with the Mississippi type construction. I think though the armour would have been 4" on the hull and possibly 8" on the turret.
Warner's vessel was to have had 11" iron on the turret, which appears to have been intended to be constructed something like a railroad water tower tank. I don't think European help would have been needed as by the time this vessel would have been built the CSN naval ironworks were capable of constructing the necessary machinery.

[Wyvern]

Simply fascinating, Corey!

Wyvern

[ct ertz]

OK, getting stuff worked out now. The Warren and Tift ships will be available as a 2 for 1 waterline only model, both in the same pdf kit, "Confederate Turret Vessels". Also, each model will be released seperately as a full hull kit, but I am not there just yet. And, for kicks, I am doing a cut-a-way version of the Tift Turret and pilothouse as I see it working, in a much larger 1/72 scale. So we are slowly getting there! Fun fun!
CT

[ct ertz]

ok, working on the turret. Here is what I have come up with, pictures soon. The pilothouse and turret turn as one. The weight is supported by a number of train wheels rolling on a circular track the same way a Rail Road turn about supports an engine. Running through the decks and up to the pilot house would be a center pinion, that is fixed to the ship. This does not turn, and this is what the ships wheel would be mounted on. The center pinion would have a hollow running down it to carry the steering rigging below and possibly a latter running up. The deck of the pilot house would be made of wood grating to make communication some what possible.

The turning of the turret/rail road table would be by hand, using block and tackle. because of this, both of the 7 inch Brookes rifles would be on a pivot carriage, giving each individual gun an additional 30 degree of windage for aiming. These guns fit, with carriage, and have enough room to pivot enough.

As with the first monitors, leakage around the turret base would be problematic in heavy seas, but this ship has a higher feeboard.

This part of the ship, the turret section, will be a separate model in cut a way in 1/72 scale. Pictures soon.
CT

[ct ertz]

OK, here is the pictures so far. Does it look right. Even with the angle of the wall, the crew would have room to work the guns.

[rebelatsea]

Corey, it would be possible to support the turret on 32pdr cannon balls as was proposed in at least one Union design. Bearing mind the shortage of railroad equipment in the south.

[jmr248]

Corey
Looking forward to adding this to my hard drive of unbuilt ironclads. About to finish the Virginia II finally after numerous restarts. As a side note, please pass on to Tera that I enjoy her writings and look forwoard to her comments and views. Teel her to keep up the good work.
Joe

[ct ertz]

Joe, thanks. I let Tera know, and she said to look, her up on Facebook, you might enjoy some of the discussions she gets going on there.

Rebelatsea, bbs of .117 cal would be about scale ammunition for an eight or nine inch gun, at 1/72 scale. I could see the turret sitting on a rack of balls instead of wheels and rails. It is keeping with the simple way to go. I wonder what kind of set up they would need for turning it the turret with rope. A simple gear ring and wheel would work, but I doubt that casting a 14 foot geared iron or bronze ring would be likely. But some sort of simple winch or pulley set up would work as well. And dead on persition would not be needed as the guns could pivot slightly to get the target.

So, what do you think? BBs-I mean eight inch shot in a race for the turret?
CT

[rebelatsea]

Hi Corey,

The turrets of HMS Royal Sovereign were handworked using handspikes and tackles, so you are not far wrong. the weight of the double gunned fore turret was 163 tons, and rotated on a coned ball race. The Eads turrets in his river monitors rotated on 32pdr balls, so yes it is eminently practical. I'm not sure that the guns in Tift of Warner ship could train within the turret as sideways movement would be very limited. I'd like to see your preliminary drawings please.

[rebelatsea]

More, Sorry I didn't spot your drawings earlier !

I think the centre stationary tube is a good idea, but would the Tifts have thought about that as it was only introduced in the Passiac class monitors when the pilot house was put atop the turret. I suspect the ship would have been steered from somewhere below decks,probbaly aft and voice pipes used to convey instructions, as that was already known technology in river boats.

[ct ertz]

The 1/250 scale waterline model is ready for a test build if I have any takers let me know!
CT

[ct ertz]

Closing in on another release, number 41.

[Zathros]

I imagine a little historical guessing has to be taken. After all, ,most of these ships were not built and it is a fun exercise of what could have been. Reminds me of the Luft '46 offerings.

[Hudsonduster]

Just starting to cut out the sneak preview of this. Corey's given us just enough of the turret innards to tempt me to kloodge up planking for the inside and leave one wall hinged to open. 1:250 is teeny to think in such things! but I'm thinking.

If the con was just for visibility and command, we're talking three systems of bells or speaking tubes to run the ship: engine room, helm, and turret tackle. Pretty tall order. We'd need little other than a grate as a floor, and all communications cables &c. through the center column.

Could the working of the turret be part of the gun crew's responsibilities? We still need to figure where the rotating tackle goes, and how--above or below deck, who does the cranking, who does the commanding. Pretty problem for sure. The kind of thing that keeps Speculative Revisionist Engineers like me up at night, but smiling.

I'll pose a question based on nothing at all (what my real-Historian friend calls "What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub?" thinking): is there precedent for capstan-and-cable drive for the turret? Crank a drum winding on a long loop of cable running around the perimeter of the rotation. No complex ring gear needed, the cable could be kept in place by a circular track or something as simple as an array of pegs.

We need a time machine.

'Duster

[ct ertz]

I would do what ever toy think would work. If it is practical-non complicated-in a N&A Tift way I would say it is as likely as not. Simplicity seems to be the name of the game with this ship design I like the rack of 32 pound cannon balls as a bearing for the heavy turret, and all that would be below the main deck. The whay the guns are set up, the turret only needed to face the intended target, the guns could be trained (slightly) side to side for accuracy. This would be a big plus if communication was bell, speaking tubes and pointing compared to the shooting on the spin methode of the Monitor and it's fixed guns.

CT

[Pem Tech]

A few more pics.:)

Excellent work.....
Strangely enough, it resembles a modern stealth warship.

[ct ertz]

This Tift Ship is but one of the designs N & A Tift had on their plate. Only the CSS Mississippi got off the ground, and it was never completed, but they were on to something. John Wallis (Rebelatsea) believes that had the CSS Mississippi been completed in time for battle or had been able to be towed up river for a future completion, it would have been a successful design. After looking at the plans of what the ship would have been like once completed, I agree. All of the other Tift designs would have used the Mississippi base and would likely have been just as successful. Rather a turreted ship of this design would have proved useful or not, It would have been at least as successful in concept as any of the monitors in the Union Navy.

Anyhow, I will have some of the other Tift designs up soon, as well as the Mississippi. I hope to offer a complete Mississippi kit of three models, the one offered to the Confederate Naval board in 1861, the concept model of Tift-Pierce collaboration, and the Completed Mississippi

Anyhow, I still think a 1/72 scale of the turret-ship mid section showing the 32 pound shot ball bearings would be awesome.
CT

[rebelatsea]

Hi All, As I started this one I'll add my 4 cents worth!

The turning mechanism need be no more elaborate than men with handspikes as in HMS Royal Soveriegn - see my earlier comment, although the CSA had built and operated a wooden turret on a railroad turntable at Port Hudson, so the technology is there. Ead's 32pdr cannon balls came later in the war with his river monitors, and may be a step too far for 1862.

I think a grating floor to the top of the turret eminently sensible and most likely to allow ventilation to the guns below. There's nothing wrong with voice pipes and or bells, again technology already in use on river boats, but I suspect directions to and from the turret would be by guys shouting at each other, this was indeed how Royal Soveriegn's turrets were trained.
I use her as an example because she is the nearest (and only) contemporary wooden turretship.

Just to complicate matters, twin turreted vessels were ordered for construction at New Orleans before the Tifts came along, and a model of one was in New Orleans Museum until the later 1880s when it disappeared
a certain Alfred T Jones designed a shield ship, with a rotating hemispherical shield for which Mallory actually placed orders,
unfortunately not fulfilled.
Neither of these projects help, but do indicate the level of interest ingetting turretships for the South.

I use the term turretship for the Southern vessels as they were different in concept to the "Monitor" design ie raft on top o a submerged lower hull.

[Hudsonduster]

JUST what I'd hoped to shake loose with my wild speculating, many thanks!

[ct ertz]

The basic waterline of this model is now in the downloads!

[rebelatsea]

Hi, well I finally finished the Tift turretship, I've made some changes to the model: different colour scheme, moved the stack away from the turret, and given her three boats.

[ct ertz]

Thanks John! Cool build.
CT

[rogersjr]

Hi CT.

I produce a newsletter for our members as part of our campaign to the the breastwork monitor, HMVS Cerberus (1868).

Is it ok to use one of your Tift monitor images in our newsletter?

Secondly, were any Tift monitors built?

John Rogers
Fleet Engineer (Victorian Navy)
website, research & Friends of the Cerberus President.
Cerberus dot com dot au

[rebelatsea]

Hello John,

Obviously I can't give CTs permission for use of his drawings, but I've attached my plan which you may use with pleasure. Unfortunately the vessel never got built or even anywhere near. It's worth noting that since I drew up this plan, an increasing number of researchers are wondering if the Tift turret would have been round after all, as the basic structure had already been used at Port Hudson.

[rogersjr]

Thanks very much John? CT replied via private message and we have emailed each other about these fascinating monitors. If you are interested in seeing the draft newsletter item, in which I credit your plans as the source of CT's images, just send me your email address by private message.

John Rogers
Fleet Engineer (Victorian Navy)
website, research & Friends of the Cerberus President.
Cerberus dot com dot au

[ct ertz]

As I said, a wealth of good information! I am excited about a book coming out in the (near!) future.

Now Your Newsletter can show the plans I used as well. Images are always good!