Ethics of kit conversions

[charleswlkr54]

With all the talk of pirate sites, etc, I was wondering about a project I'd like to try someday, I noticed that GPM has a 1/24 Rolls Royce Pattern 1920 amored car. Now, the RAF aifield edefense people took some of these and put the hulls on Ford truck chassis after the RR cahssis wore out, added a Scarif Ring mount to the top of the turrent with either 2 Lewis or 2 Vickers K mg's.oks like all you would have to do really is change out the wheeels and add the ring mount/mg's. Is it allowablwe to do that or must I get permisssion from GPM or the desginer first?

[charleswlkr54]

I meant ETHICS, darn typos!

[Darwin]

If you have a legitimate copy of the base kit, modify the parts (or add parts you have created yourself or took from odther legitimately obtained kits), and do not attempt to distribute the modified kit, I see no ethics problem to customizing, kitbashing, or whatever name you wish to give the process. The only exception I would make to that statement is if the original designer stipulates that a condition of the download is a prohibition against resizing or otherwise modifying his kit. The thing that amuses me is this question would not have been asked if it were a plastic kit....instead, the modeler would just grab the spare parts box, razor saw, and body putty and have at it....and, if it came out nicely enough, get the build published in some scale modeling magazine.

[SJPONeill]

So long as you are working off a legally acquired original of the model and intend to keep this at the end of the build (if it is not expended during the build i.e. if you work off a scan in case of errors), then I would say that this is eminently ethical...no different than if you were going to convert a model in other media like plastic or resin...

[Jim Nunn]

Charles,

I see no issues you purchased the original kit and you are adding to the model, I assume for your own enjoyment. I would think that you could even make the "add-on" available, they would be your property.

I you feel that you need GPM's permission then ask them. My personal experience is that they will give you permission. I modified one of GPM's free down loads (jerry cans) using their PDF files and basically changed a good 40% of their work and they gave me permission to offer it on this forum.

Jim Nunn

[Darwin]

Jim, again harkening to our plastic bretherin, I know of no cases whatever where anyone has gotten into any kind of a patent infringement problem regarding sales or distribution of "conversion" kits, so long as they are able to demonstrate the item they are offering is their own work, and not a derivation from the parts in the kit it modifies. Any parts you create as original designs should be fair game for you to distribute any way you so desire. If not, every producer of photoetched aftermarket replacement parts for commercial kits would be in deep, serious trouble....and I haven't seen that happening.

[charleswlkr54]

Thanks guys! I think the difference might be you can't put a plastic model on a pirate site and claim it as your own as you can with a paper model! Plus you HAVE to buy the plastic kits, etc.

[charleswlkr54]

And yes, it would be for myself, claiming it as totally my own WOULD br a copyright infringement.

[peter taft]

I meant ETHICS, darn typos!

Typo's corrected :)

[cdavenport]

Sorry; every one of you are dead wrong. There are no copyright or ethical issues to deal with. In fact, if you make a modification or, as we call it in the plastics world, an "after market part," you are under no legal obligation or threat whatever to obtain permission from the originator of the kit.

Years ago, Monogram produced a 1/48 PBY-5A Privateer model that featured a tail section that was grossly wrong. Not months after the release of the model, a Canadian company produced a resin plug to replace the kit parts. It's still available. And Monogram (now Revell) never corrected the kit (impossible to do so without huge cost).

In fact, the production of an aftermarket part, paper, plastic or otherwise, for a specific kit is seen within the industry as a plus because it makes the kit that more attractive to someone who wishes to make the model a bit more unique. You can buy aftermarket parts for a growing number of paper models.

You can sell your add-ons/modifications with a clear conscience. In fact, you can repackage an original kit with the additional/modified parts and offer it for sale, as a complete package. It's done all the time in the plastic world. In fact, you are doing the original manufacturer a service by purchasing the kits! The copyright laws are the same for plastic and paper models, too.

I make my own vacform canopies for my paper airplanes. If I want to offer them for sale for a specific kit, I can do so at will.

What you cannot ethically do is reproduce a copyrighted kit without the copyright holder's permission. That's called pirating....in the plastics world, too.

If you want to make a new fuselage to fit, for example, a GPM kit, you can do so legally as long as you are not trying to pass it off as a GPM product.

Frankly, I'm surprised we have not seen more of that. Airdave has done a number of repaints of Marek kits, likely with permission. But, he really didn't need it if he just offered the skins and sold them to be used with Marek kits that the modeler had to purchase.

[Maltedfalcon]

Sorry; every one of you are dead wrong. There are no copyright or ethical issues to deal with. In fact, if you make a modification or, as we call it in the plastics world, an "after market part," you are under no legal obligation or threat whatever to obtain permission from the originator of the kit..

Well technically you can make add-ons, because they are "generic" and could be added to any similar scale model of the subject.

However derivatives are covered by copyright. Meaning if you base a model or model part on somebody elses copyrighted work (rather then modeling from the original) and you market it without permission that would be illegal.

One blatent example I have found of this is: You can order the blueprints of the Wright Flyer from the Smithsonian institution. You can use them to make a model of the Wright Flyer. - However if you use them to make a model to sell or distribute, the smithsonian will prosecute you.

[Zathros]

Well technically you can make add-ons, because they are "generic" and could be added to any similar scale model of the subject.

However derivatives are covered by copyright. Meaning if you base a model or model part on somebody elses copyrighted work (rather then modeling from the original) and you market it without permission that would be illegal.

One blatent example I have found of this is: You can order the blueprints of the Wright Flyer from the Smithsonian institution. You can use them to make a model of the Wright Flyer. - However if you use them to make a model to sell or distribute, the smithsonian will prosecute you.

You can make a Wright Flyer from sources of than the Smithsonian's prints, and there isn't a thing they could do about it. They would have to prove to a Judge that you had their prints, and even then, the Smithsonian could be risking a lot of Federal Funding. If they are asking $861.5 million dollars from the American Taxpayer, I find it much to think that they would sue anyone for making something who's patent ran out a long time ago. I don't agree with your conclusion either, I would like to see where that came from, and even then, just because someone wrote it doesn't mean it is right. There are a lot of Wright Flyer models out there for sale. The reason all these companies can make models of our present day Fighters/Helicopters, etc., is because of the legal question of taxpayer rights, and being doubly taxed for something we already paid tax on, the original craft! Maybe private corporations should pay, but, we will end up paying anything they get taxed on, so, double taxation.

However, calling anyone's work on this forum, or any other, "their design", is a bit much. I have only seen 1 paper model recently, that was an "original design", and that was by Dented Rick. Everything else here is derivative work. If I want to make a one piece Hull, or, an interior for someone elses's interpretation of their airplane model, there is nothing anyone could do about that. The forum may have their own private preferences, but there is no legal issue whatsoever. The more accurate the interpretation, then, logically, the more similar they will be, and then the more interchangeable the parts will become, scale notwithstanding.

[cdavenport]

Actually, the real bugaboo is licensing rights. You put the Ford/Boeing/Chevy, et al, logo on a model and you better have the license to do so. Paper modeling is so small on the radar, I doubt any company would prosecute or issue a cease and desist....but they could if they wanted.

The Zorn reprint of the Ford Trimotor is likely not covered because the model was copyrighted before the companies started requiring licensing rights.

In the plastic model world, this is one of the reasons we see such a dearth of new models based on commercial vehicles. The licensing rights gouge the profits!


Folks, the real issue here is whether we, as modelers, have the right to modify a commercially available kit, legally, morally, ethically, according to the laws of Islam, Vishnu, and the god Apollo....and sell that modification.

The answer is YES!

GPM has reprinted the 1/33 scale B-52, but it's in its original colors. If I want to make a repaint so that it fits the frame of the GPM B-52, I can do so and sell it without any legal/ethical ramifications. If I want to design a completely new kit that builds exactly like the GPM kit, I can do so. In fact, I wish someone would do so because the GPM kit has some annoying profile errors.

Case closed.

[Zathros]

Actually, the real bugaboo is licensing rights. You put the Ford/Boeing/Chevy, et al, logo on a model and you better have the license to do so. Paper modeling is so small on the radar, I doubt any company would prosecute or issue a cease and desist....but they could if they wanted.

The Zorn reprint of the Ford Trimotor is likely not covered because the model was copyrighted before the companies started requiring licensing rights.

In the plastic model world, this is one of the reasons we see such a dearth of new models based on commercial vehicles. The licensing rights gouge the profits!


Folks, the real issue here is whether we, as modelers, have the right to modify a commercially available kit, legally, morally, ethically, according to the laws of Islam, Vishnu, and the god Apollo....and sell that modification.

The answer is YES!

GPM has reprinted the 1/33 scale B-52, but it's in its original colors. If I want to make a repaint so that it fits the frame of the GPM B-52, I can do so and sell it without any legal/ethical ramifications. If I want to design a completely new kit that builds exactly like the GPM kit, I can do so. In fact, I wish someone would do so because the GPM kit has some annoying profile errors.

Case closed.

Well, I just want you to know that for what it's worth, I am in complete agreement with you. I find a lot of this whole issue presumptuous, has been beat to death, and some people's demand for some pretty specific "preferences' for work they have copied, preposterous.

[goodduck]

so....... cdavenport, base on your opinion and your interpretations of the copyright law. I can then go take airdave C-130 gunship kit that I repainted and sell it commercially? Or, just give it away to anyone for free?

Hey, airdave, it is cool with you I go sell or give away my repaint of your c-130? And how about I selling your c-130 with six blade propeller mod, that's cool with you too right? .......... well maybe be not give away free, I'll sell it. I put too much work repaint and mod your model to give away free. Anyway, just want to give you a head up airdave, maybe you would like to buy my repaint and mod. Yes, I will give you a discount, airdave. After all, I am working off your kit. Oh, airdave, can you make a c-17 too so I can repaint and sell it too, thanks. :) And whoever did the Piaggio Avanti, Is it cool with you too I go sell my repaint of your Piaggio Avanti? How about you, cdavenport? You designed any models I can repaint, mod and sell?

Oh, look at the time, I got a ton of free models I need to go download and repaint, and put them up for sell. Thanks to you guys interpretations, it open up a whole new opportunity for me. So, please excuse me, I got to go, I going to be very busy.

[SJPONeill]

Nope - you can only sell those modification parts that you have made yourself...that might not have come through above as clearly is it should have done...so you can sell yo recolour skin but NOT the rest of the model...

[cdavenport]

Nope - you can only sell those modification parts that you have made yourself...that might not have come through above as clearly is it should have done...so you can sell yo recolour skin but NOT the rest of the model...


Thanks SJPO! That's the whole argument in a nutshell. So, Goodduck, have a ball! I really wish I had your skill/knowledge to do the repaints digitally. As it is, I have to build the model and paint it by hand to get something different....exactly the reason I moved to paper models; I'm tired of painting!

[goodduck]

..... let me see, just the part that repainted, .......... That's still everything, down to the front conver, actually, I have not repaint the cover yet, but I will now. I will repaint the cover pink, and the instructions too. and whatever airdave sell his c-130 for, I will sell my repaint ..... 3 bucks less. I'll take per order now, thank you.

[goodduck]

ok, enough of this silliness, is like I really will sell airdave or anyone else repaints. If "I" didn't made the part out of nothing but take someone else model to mod or repaint, then that is not mine. I am in fact be profiting off somebody else labor. This is my interpretations.

[Zathros]

ok, enough of this silliness, is like I really will sell airdave or anyone else repaints. If "I" didn't made the part out of nothing but take someone else model to mod or repaint, then that is not mine. I am in fact be profiting off somebody else labor. This is my interpretations.

That is the nature of this whole Hobby. All these jets and boats and planes, nobody who designed the originals gets any money, so, it is profiting off of someone else's labor, and in that respect, it is the America, and most Capitalists societies way. That is why it is not illegal! None of the parts are made ut of nothing, they are made from studying the pictures of the originals. This discussions always end up the same way. If no one has the right to make the same model as someone else, then no on e has the right to make the model. The closer you get, and adhere to the standards used, the more similar the models will look, until, they become indistinguishable. One thing that is unique is what lies underneath, and the methodology used. Your box method for connecting the formers is exactly what I did 4 years ago on the first ESKA model I interpreted. It was nothing like the original ESKA model. That was far before I met you (I did these back in 2007) and I had never seen anyone do that before. Like minds produce like results.


http://www.zealot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51299&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1185346460

http://www.zealot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51566&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1185346795

[airdave]

Hey, airdave, it is cool with you I go sell or give away my repaint of your c-130? sure! would you like to try to sell my Car too?
I really need a new one.

I agree with everything the Major has said so far... 100%
The rest of you can go jump in the lake!
You first Allen!

[spaceagent-9]

i didnt read all this thread, but i have a comment.
ethical means basically to consider as you would feel, if you were wronged, as if you were in the other guy's position, and how you would feel about it.

so, if you are not claiming credit for the author's work, or you are not ruining the sales of his product, or if you are not taking some interface middle man position, cutting off anyone who tries to go thru you to get to the author, you are NOT BEING UNETHICAL.
however, some people are very touchy about thier work.
to avoid an artist's hurt feelings, you might want to send him an note about it first, carefully read what the author says and see if he even cares about others moding his work.
that is about all that can be said, anything else falls into another person's opinions about thier feelings.
i suggest that you change the topic from ETHICS to WRONG.
an ethical act mean that you are determining your position by thoughtful consideration.
an WRONG act depends on the reactions of those who are wrong. once you do that, you can discuss what is wrong about mods to no end .
jim

[charleswlkr54]

A 1/33 B-52? Good Lord, that must be a MONSTER!

[charleswlkr54]

I'll more than likely do that, Space-agent, project is off in the future though.

[cdavenport]

A 1/33 B-52? Good Lord, that must be a MONSTER!

Yeah, I have one, unbuilt. The wingspan is almost 6 feet.

[charleswlkr54]

Lol! :-) Yes, they were!

[charleswlkr54]

Sound like you proctically need a hanger to keep it in! And I thought the old Monogram B-36 was huge!

[paperairforce]

Awww shucks…..I saw it…it’s an interesting discussion…it‘s pertinent….good fun…so my two (twenty?) cents…..

1. I think murky copyright issues will ultimately come down to what is determined by a judge if an “injured“party sues. There is a provision, as stated by Malted Falcon, of derivative work pertaining to copyrighted material - which paper models fall under, being design works on paper. I think it would come down to each judge or lawyer’s talent to outline where that boundary is with each case, and which ruling may change from judge to judge.

2. I respectfully disagree that almost all paper designs could legally be considered derivative works (if that is what is being said). I do agree, that much of the design will be based on the real plane. As such, many models based on that plane are going to look extremely similar. Especially the wings and tail.

But, P-51s don’t come built in paper pieces we can use to make our models. They have compound curves. It is very much up to each independent design to convert those curves, and that plane, into paper. It is an art as to where and how the plane is chopped up. That is the first step. There are many ways that it could be done, and each design in converting the plane to paper is an independent design in itself. Sometimes, there are even discrepancies in the shape of the cross sections, wing thickness, etc that are interpreted differently by each designer. Many bulks must be “designed”, because bulks may be needed in paper models sometimes where they don’t exist in the real planes. The resulting pieces are the hard work of the designer, and are the design, and are copyrighted as such - and understandably so I hope. Taking someone’s pieces is to take, or steal, their design - and isn’t right.

Now - you might make your own design and wind up with something that almost indistinguishable by accident. But, the chances of their being exactly the same are very slim to none - even though they are based on the same works.

3. Taking someone’s proprietary pieces, making them bigger (or smaller), chopping them up as needed (to be joined back together, producing a resized but same piece), shrinking and joining 2 pieces together, or adding or removing color, I believe would all be considered direct and blatant derivative’s copied from someone else’s work.

For instance, I don’t consider I can just take someone else’s model, remove all color, blow it up, chop it up, add removeable tops and moving control surfaces, (maybe re-arrange the sheet pieces) and call it my own. I think that would be stealing someone else’s model, even if the end modification and resulting pieces are barely recognizeable from the original. And actually it would be more trouble than it is worth.

4. Comparing plastic kits. If you took a plastic kit, bought necessary molds, and started reproducing them exactly - even with a few “improvement” modifications - It’s my belief the model company would feel compelled to tell you no unauthorized reproduction is legal and to quit making copies - even for your own use. It’s the same with video tapes ( I think) . You can’t copy them. Period. Sale or private use. But people do. As long as they don’t go trying to distribute them, I never heard of anyone getting bent out of shape, or into trouble about it….

With paper models - it’s so easy to make the reproductions. That is where the confusion is. But when you scan it, or print it - you are making almost an exact copy. Just as if you made a mold and made another plastic kit. The kit company would not be comfortable with that. Even if you change the color. (say gray plastic, to red plastic) . It something different to buy their plastic kit, and modify it for your own one-time build. That is ok. Making a reproduction of it for an unlimited build of plastic kits, would probably not be. The plastic companies would almost certainly want you to buy a second kit.

5. Aftermarket parts. If you want to go ahead and make your own work, that will fit an existing kit out there, and is not a copy in any way of that kit - I don’t see any issue with that. I think it is your own original work that you have made, and not in any way stolen from someone else. For example - if anyone would like to make a cockpit kit for my airplanes - and sell them - feel free! I’d be honored and thrilled and won‘t be trying to sue you. I’d buy one. Maybe lots of them.

These are my thoughts, right or wrong. I don’t feel comfortable stealing anyone else’s kit and just removing its color, resizing it, and I don’t want anyone “taking” one of mine without permission - downsizing my parts, adding color, joining them together, etc. Whether it can legally be done, without being considered a “derivative” of a copyrighted work - will be up to the judge who decides each case. I don’t think it would fly honestly, and if anyone would admit to a judge to copying the outlined pieces of the work in question, but just changing it a little.

And just so you know…no lawyers were harmed in the formulation of these arguments…

[Darwin]

And just so you know…no lawyers were harmed in the formulation of these arguments…

Gee, that's too bad. Better luck next time.;)

[charleswlkr54]

Hey, watch that business about lawyers!I'm going to school right now, a course in Legal Office support staff, hope I'll end up working in a court, though! ;-)

[goodduck]

airdave, I never have any intention to sell or give away repaint of your and anyone else models. I was just poking fun of this thread. This thread and many other threads of this kind that never get anywhere, but boat load of fun to read. But however, I will go jump in the leak this weekend. But, are you serious I can sell your repaint, after I jump in the lake? Really? :)

"If" I didn't built every parts out of my own hands but using any parts of (for example) airdave's c-130 as a base , repaint it, mod it and then sell it. Then that model is not mine, and I am in fact profiting of airdave labor no matter how much icing I spreading on it, it is still not mine. People can spread icing as thick as one want. Decorate it with silk and flowers. But still, somebody have to bake the cake first before anyone can spread icing on. airdave baked the c-130, I came alone and spread icing all over it with silk and flowers, I can't sell it, it would be unethical of me if I do so. But, now that he give me the ok to sell (as everyone seen in his post), that changed the game for me :) .......... just kidding, airdave, just kidding. :) So, Zathros, that's what I ment when I said make thing out of nothing. That's how I see it, my interpretations and only apply to me and I am not forcing it on anyone else. Is somebody here is a real life Copyright Attorney that can set us straight? No? Ok, everyone have their own interpretations, so, veryone will have to make their own judgment call.

[Zathros]

Actually Allen, your model of the Savoia S-21, taken from a "Anime Cartoon (the word cartoon is so inappropriate for that kind of movie) is virtually pulling something out of thing air. The plane is different in many shots of the movie, and if anyone made that model, and it was proportioned like yours, it would have to be a copy. That is no where close to a U.S Navy boat. or Air Force plane that has blue prints and line drawings all over the internet. Those are not creations, they are interpretations of someone else's work, as are the model's offered by PaperAirforce, if not, why would they be called what they are called? That is in fact what this hobby is about though. I don't know why people see that as a negative. It is not.

Copying a model part for part is "unethical". No doubt. I have seen only one a handful of models on this forum with "copyrights" on them. I don't remember seeing any foreign ones that had U.S. copyrights on them. If you want a good example of what models no one has rights to, just look what is sold on ECardmodels. Chris is vigilant about bringing down people who try and pirate direct scans of his offerings, but he would not host one Star Trek or Star Wars model, or give one away, or a Car model hand had an active companies logo on it. The reason is obvious.

This is circular, but as Goodduck said, sometimes, reading the circular arguments is entertaining. Nobody feels their own work is derivative, but don't hesitate on naming their work that the model is "not" derived from! That's actually kind of funny! There's no money to be made in this hobby, that's for sure! :)

[Maltedfalcon]

You can make a Wright Flyer from sources of than the Smithsonian's prints, and there isn't a thing they could do about it. They would have to prove to a Judge that you had their prints, and even then, the Smithsonian could be risking a lot of Federal Funding.

Probably not...
here is the revelant passage of their copyright license, you have to agree to before you get the plans.

3. PROCEDURE: Requestors of air and space craft drawings must execute an agreement (http://nasm.si.edu/research/arch/WebPDF/indem.pdf) (PDF format 109k, requires the free Adobe Acrobat Reader (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html)) with NASM indicating their intent to use the drawings and data supplied by NASM only for historical research, exhibition, model making, or non-profit restoration purposes. Requestors will also agree that the documents and data are intended solely for personal and non-commercial use, that these documents and data will not be used to create a replication of any aircraft, and that copies of the documents and data will not be reproduced, distributed, or transmitted. This signed agreement must be provided to NASM before orders for copying of drawings are accepted.

I suspect they have pretty good lawyers...
and to be specific, Its not their "design" that is copyrighted it is their presentation of the specific, accurate measurements they have made of the original object. So yes you could absolutely make a model of the Wright flyer, What I said was it would be illegal for you to make it based on the drawings from the smithsonian.

And regardless of how you feel about it derivative works are covered under copyright law. Without permission they are illegal. Doing it because you think it unlikely you will be prosecuted or even noticed , or that someone else has done it before doesnt effect the legality.

The simple and correct solution is ask first don't assume.

[Maltedfalcon]

I have seen only one a handful of models on this forum with "copyrights" on them. I don't remember seeing any foreign ones that had U.S. copyrights on them.

All the works you have seen on this forum are copyrighted.

From the US Copyright office...

When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf).”

The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights. However, the United States does not have such copyright relationships with every country. For a listing of countries and the nature of their copyright relations with the United States, see Circular 38a (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf), International Copyright Relations of the United States.


There's no money to be made in this hobby, that's for sure! :)

I have made thousands of dollars from paper modeling, and I know quite a few people who make more than me, I am sorry that you have not been as successful with your models.

[goodduck]

Of course there is money to be made, or all the papermodels companies will be no more. When I finally master this craft someday, I am going all out, planning to make money left and right. So don't anyone telling me there is no money to be have in paper modeling.

[ARMORMAN]

Allen,

There are piles of money to be made for sure.......piles of pennies ;)

[Zathros]

You: "I have made thousands of dollars from paper modeling, and I know quite a few people who make more than me, I am sorry that you have not been as successful with your models." Now you're not, neither am I. I have no wish to make any money off of paper models!

Me: Thousands of dollars Eh? Every couple of weeks? Any time span longer than that, and you won't be able to live in Connecticut, or, most of the New England for that matter.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________
You: "You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work.", "Hmm. not a good start, if you were so sure, why did you not file when you created the model", said the Judge, case closed.

Me: Paperairforce is the only work I recall seeing any "Permissions" from, and some questioned that!

You: "And regardless of how you feel about it derivative works are covered under copyright law. Without permission they are illegal. Doing it because you think it unlikely you will be prosecuted or even noticed , or that someone else has done it before doesn't effect the legality."

Me: Yeah, I know, that was my point. Derivative works, i.e. "Star Wars" models, are illegal, yup, that's what I said. What did you write about assumptions, or maybe you misread something?
________________________________

You: "The simple and correct solution is ask first don't assume.":confused:

Me: Who?
I didn't ask anything either. I doubt I would take any risk on what could cost money based solely on the musings of some anonymous poster in a paper model forum, would that be wise, why,I don't think the advice wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on!

I think it's CDavenport's turn to be quoted, I agreed with him. So there! :)

Also, I never charge anyone for anything I do in regards to paper models. I have quite a stack of models that I have accrued from people who have sent me their work for various reasons, helping with parts, being nice, amongst other things, I respect their privacy, most willingly. I have lots of models. I have even been able to give some back to people who lost their original work because of Hard Drive crashes.

I am hoping for a CraftRobo for Christmas, then a CraftBuildo for putting them together. Then, a CraftPosto, that reads the posts of your favorite forum then posts and responds accordingly.

There are some people who put out tons of free models, and charge for very few of their works. That is more in keeping with what this hobby has been about.

Now, go quote someone else, I am sure that many must take exception from my "derivative" suppositions, and musings". :rolleyes:

[spaceagent-9]

see what i mean about the artist being touchy????????
and the one thing that is repeated over and over from all is to ask for permission, or at least dont pretend that you came up with thier stuff on your own without giving credit.
thats all people seem to want on this, is recoginition of thier work, so using the chemists solutions, and boiling it all down to its basic components,
pirating is taking credit or cash for someone esle's work without acknowlaging them as the artist.
jim

[goodduck]

Pennies is still money, ARMORMAN! Even my wife and I both have a good paying job still, thanks GOD. But every time she and I see pennies laying around on the streets we'll still picking them up with joy. We'll roll them up and put in the bank. Every pennies we picked up is free money to us. Ten pennies make a dime and so on. So keep chucking them away people. I'll be there to pick them all up with a big smile. Thank you very much! See my picture. I just picked up couple pennies that day when they took my pictures. :)

What give, Zathros? Dude! A thousands bucks is a thousands bucks! So what if it took a months and months to get. It's still a thousands bucks more then one have before. Of course one still keep his /her day job, if one still have job nowadays. Don't forget to chuck your pennies, Zathros. :)

[ARMORMAN]

"It's a joke, son, ya missed it!" - Foghorn Leghorn

[Zathros]

Pennies is still money, ARMORMAN! Even my wife and I both have a good paying job still, thanks GOD. But every time she and I see pennies laying around on the streets we'll still picking them up with joy. We'll roll them up and put in the bank. Every pennies we picked up is free money to us. Ten pennies make a dime and so on. So keep chucking them away people. I'll be there to pick them all up with a big smile. Thank you very much! See my picture. I just picked up couple pennies that day when they took my pictures. :)

What give, Zathros? Dude! A thousands bucks is a thousands bucks! So what if it took a months and months to get. It's still a thousands bucks more then one have before. Of course one still keep his /her day job, if one still have job nowadays. Don't forget to chuck your pennies, Zathros. :)

Hey, you not supposed to pick up money that is on the street, That money is for "Widows and the Fatherless, etc.", as gleaning the fields was in ancient Biblical times. I tell my son not to pickup change on the street. I tell him to leave it there for either the person who dropped it, or, for someone who may really need it.

Gleaning

Another form of social provision was gleaning. We need to understand this. Narrow pathways would separate the fields of the different farmers or families. The Jews were forbidden from harvesting the corners of their fields. Why? As a form of social welfare provision, the poor, the widows, the orphans, the socially disenfranchised, even sojourners (foreigners traveling through the land), had the right to glean.


Thousands of dollars making models? I'd rather fix TV's, or audio equipment. I can fix a TV in an hour or two and charge $300 bucks. How long does it take to make a model? Someone comes to me because their $8000 Lawn Tractor (not the cheap Sears kind), cracks the deck. I prepare the metal, weld it, and charge $300 dollars, for an hour and a half's work. How long does it take to make a paper model? Don't quit your day job is right. Actually, if you need money really bad, don't build paper models at all and put that time to better work (this excludes certain persons i know who do this professionally, they know who they are, and out of respect for their privacy, I do not say their names).


I really enjoy the Hobby aspect of paper modeling. It is the best part. The sharing of ideas. The Free sharing of ideas. The exchange that goes on. I guess the money aspect, is what always brings up this question of "rights'. Someone wants to make money (nothing wrong with that ) and then this question arises, it used to be eery 6 months, it seems like every 3 months.


When this question rises up, and you (me) voice an opinion, there's always insults as in :


"I have made thousands of dollars from paper modeling, and I know quite a few people who make more than me, I am sorry that you have not been as successful with your models." and "The simple and correct solution is ask first don't assume." by malted falcon


That is the sad and worst aspect of this Hobby. Here is someone judging my input and being negative about it, knows nothing about what he could not see, but what has happened is the discussing and making paper models for fun has become burdensome and boorish.



"To be or not to be, that is the question:
Whether \'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing, end them"..............................all this over paper models ? ......................get a life comes to mind.

[airdave]

LMAO
This line is the best.

all this over paper models ? ......................get a life comes to mind.especially after posting 6 of the 42 posts in this thread,
These 6 posts consisting of more sentences and words than all 36 of the other posts put together!

This is hilarious.

So when people agree with you, they are your best buddy?
but if they disagree, they must be attacking you personally?
Just calling it the way I see it.

When this question rises up, and you (me) voice an opinion, there's always insults
Here is someone judging my input and being negative about it, knows nothing about what he could not see, but what has happened is the discussing and making paper models for fun has become burdensome and boorish.

[cdavenport]

Well, guys, it's time to cut and run. If I ever design something and you want to make an add-on and sell it as a complement to the basic model, go ahead. It's legal, and it might help to sell my product even more!

[airdave]

Well, guys, it's time to cut and run. If I ever design something and you want to make an add-on and sell it as a complement to the basic model, go ahead. It's legal, and it might help to sell my product even more!

exactly the point...
Kooklik let me repaint his Sub after sales had started to slow down.
If nothing else it helped sell Subs for both of us.

But if I hadn't gotten Kooklik's permission, then I think it would just have been "bad form" to continue.
Chris Gutzmer knows this, and thats one of the reasons his business is thriving.

I'm done with this thread too...always a blast.

[goodduck]

Why so serious(in The Joker's tone). Debate like this never get anywhere but all good fun!

[Zathros]

Oh! no quid quo pro, Sorry!

[Zathros]

Why so serious(in The Joker's tone). Debate like this never get anywhere but all good fun!

Yup, your right, goes nowhere, not even fun!

[rickstef]

Alright folks, kicking you out of the sandbox on this one, closing this thread