Cleopatra Shipyard 1/96

[birder]

I thought Cleo now that I've dusted her off a bit could renew a thread in the proper location, I mean really if the Toybota could be here....Today looking where the obvious holdup on Cleo is and it is the rigging for the great guns. I have chosen some simplification due to scale, but the bolt rope though an eye on the gun in Royal Navy style must stay. Here is the first gun rigged, 13 more to go. (since I have no idea what I'm doing I've asked the Captain and crew to supervise)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2281.jpg

[Barry]

Have a look at Jim Krauslis's Constitution for the gun tackle

[birder]

Thanks for that tip, Barry! However, although the thread is there, including a remarkable description, I can't seem to get in any photos. The blocks I have are too large and scarce for me to hide in this gun tackle, but Jim's described method sounds excellent, at 1/2 the scale of mine! Ha!
Here's what the paint color looks like on the guns, and some bolt ropes, but large and clumsy I think, however will make them more visable when covered with the walkway and boat rack.

[redhorse]

Glad to see you've started back up on Cleopatra, Glen. Ahhh, the joys of rigging!

[Papercut]

Oh happy day,:D I followed this thread to the last page and with sadness saw you had not posted anymore on the build. I am a ole Plank on Frame builder and I have a copy of Shipyard's 1777 Santa Leocadia. I do have a tip about the rigging for the gun tackle, reduce the thread size to smaller dia. Go to your local sewing shop in town, go to the white cotton thread, pick out several dia.s, pick up some bee wax. Go home use a size about half what you have tied up now, place a tea bag in hot water, coil off thread at least a doz. times around two fingers, cut from spool, lay thread into tea and let soak for awhile. Remove, lay on paper towel, air dry. When dried, run thru the bee wax and you have a nice size thread for gun rigging in a rich color. Two colors are required for rigging, tan and or dark brown and black for rope that has been treated w/pitch. As far as gun rigging, that is up to you how much you need to give the impression you are looking for. Not only is the gun attached to the ship's gunwales, but there is also run out rigging to pull gun back into battery after firing. So it is up to you what you want to add. I can tell you from the copy I have, the complete rigging is not included in the kit. If you are a stickler for the complete rigging prototypical of the ship, you will need to do a little research, and if you are not able to find any info for the ship you are building, understand, each type had a standard rigging depending on the country and ship builder. So if you come across a ship that is the same type as your's and there is rigging details, copy that and keep looking until the ship is completely rigged. I will give another tip, rigging puts a lot, repeat, a lot of stress on the attachments points and since this is a paper model, use caution. Hope this has helped and you finish this great ship you are building.:)

[birder]

Thank you for your interest, gents, this is a great kit, and have to study a bit obviously, however, since is the only sail warship I've done. Thank you for the info, Papercut, the ship you have would be nice too, huh? I have been building my own cannon, wood, and am now pressing on with rigging the guntackle. The return tackle I thought would be too small too see on this kit, but I guess am rethinking that now...no matter presently as still more carriages and guns to finish.:)

[Yu Gyokubun]

I am following your thread referring to the book "Historic Ship Models" that you recommended me;)

[birder]

Yu, I'm looking at page 169.:D

[Yu Gyokubun]

This evening I started from page 164 Armament and now at last reached to page 169 because my reading speed is far slower than native speaker of English:D

[birder]

I think the breeching was a bit stout, so removed it and placed attatchment points for the gun tackle and train tackle should I be able to include them. Am most pleased with the appearance of the guns now, and a few lines and blocks? Still trying to decide what type of block to use. I have several choices, but the main ones are 2mm wood (purchased from Jerzey) paper that came with the kit, or some homemade ones.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2285.jpg

[birder]

this is my plan for mass producing 3mm blocks of card. I'm hoping to make most of the blocks this way, but have some wood ones to put in conspicuous places

[Don Boose]

The view of the gun deck is very impressive!

So are the blocks.

Don

[birder]

Thank you much, Don! I spent the better part of the day yest putting together the guns, but are sitting loose still until some rigging is contrived. Will show my experiments when I can get some done. I'm thinking of sinking some anchors into the deck for the train tackles today, I'm pretty convinced this would be easily seen when the model is done (unlike the guntackle) I think the hatches are too bright white, too, what do you guys think?

[Barry]

In His Majesty's Navy white was white at all times scrub it or paint it.

[birder]

White it is then, thanks Barry!:) I don't think I'd like being in one of these ships in their day, but admire the beauty of them always.

[birder]

gun rigging progress

[Papercut]

Looking good. I like the idea of the paper blocks in the thread before this one. When I started looking at paper models, I approached like all the other ways and types of modeling as to how to improve and replace. This led to burn out while in the 10th month of that super detailed project, have learned, build with what came with the kit, and instead of replacing everything with a fortune of aftermarket parts, again build w/what was in the kit. Watching this thread has helped to show what you can do with paper. So I am not saying do not use what you like or feel, but I guess just stay with the theme of the kit and build instead of burning out. Good job birder.:D

[birder]

Thank you Papercut! The advantages are multiple to using card blocks, although I'm using other materials when they seem needed to me. Just the comparison of cost compared to a comparable wood kit is striking, and I have not invested much money in this kit, just time....:). I think the card model cost per quality model comparison weighs very heavily to the card medium.(look at some of the other builds too, really makes quality modeling available to nearly anyone)

[Papercut]

Glen, I absolutely agree, paper modeling allows anyone the ability to build what ever they desire w/in reasonable cost. It is for that reason I find card models so appealing. Here is a good example. I do not at the current time know the price of a 1:200 Paper Yamoto, so lets go with the Fuso, $64.00 plus postage, now lets look at a 1:200 Plastic Yamoto. The last time I purchased one of these, she set me back $400.00:eek:. That's a lot of paper kits and as much bag for the buck. So again, I agree, this allows the fellow with the limited budget to enjoy the art of modeling with out busting the bank.

[treadhead1952]

Hi Glen,

Nice save on the blocks for your gun tackle, nice job on the rigging as well.

I have to agree on the issue of paper modeling saving a lot compared to where the styrene part of the hobby is going. One of the reasons I am looking and working my way into this genre.

Jay Massey
treadhead1952
Las Vegas, NV

[birder]

Thanks, Jay, hope you enjoy this type of model making, materials and methods differ, but techniques can be improved upon with practice, I myself had made paper models for years before this forum, but have doubled my abilities here due to imput from others.

[treadhead1952]

Oh yeah, I am digging around looking for tips from all of you guys as well as dreaming up some ideas for additions to my own first effort. This is one of the most helpful forums I have run across in a while and I am very enthused about building this way.

Jay Massey
treadhead1952
Las Vegas, NV

[birder]

slowly completing the guntackle. I have more tackle made but not mounted to the guns yet, but when done can move forward, walks and boat racks, finish up boats, ladders. Then can move ahead with masting and rigging.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/odds006-1.jpg

[birder]

Not much building opportunity this week, but by working on bits at a time the gundeck is looking more complete. The rearward 4 guns are under the overhang of the quarterdeck, and thankfully are finished! I just had to be creative and patient to finally get them secured, they gave some resistance..:D

[eibwarrior]

Nice work on the bits and gundeck Birder.

Hey, I know some plank-on-frame builders (like my grandfather-in-law) who would be envious.

[birder]

Thanks Eib! I don't know about that, but I am studying those very models to see how this is done, and doing my best to reproduce the accuracy they achieve. It is a great fun project, and finally am starting to comprehend the rigging details, so the masts can go up to stay, timeframe?:D Not rushing this one. I have no idea how long it will take to complete. Furthermore, like Barry I flutter off to other projects frequently.:)

[Gharbad]

Looking great!
I have several ships from this period and the rigging and little rope work like that is what holds me back from trying. I was going to do one for Rick's No Comfort contest, but never started.

[Papercut]

Rigging takes the most time of the project. Take your time, and I agree, go to something else every now and then to keep from getting burned out on it. Before you know it, the rigging is done. One thing that helps is are you rigging her running, or down as if in port. Study and apply only enough to convey the function of the rigging. Looking good.

[Barry]

last time you fluttered by you did some nice work.

[birder]

Gentlemen, thanks, I have not built anything quite like this before and it is rewarding and fun. Barry thank you for that. I'm happy to see this ship enjoyed by you all, and it spurs me on to work on her. Not that it takes much prodding:D. Steady as she goes.

[Don Boose]

Cleo looks like a museum wooden ship model, Glen. Beautiful job. Lot's of innovative techniques!

Don

[birder]

Thank you Don! I do hope this model will fit in with the wood built variety. Shipyard makes the hull so well, so the rest is not all that different from a wood model build.:)

[birder]

working on preparing various things for the shrouds, here's the main mast with "wood" hoops and rope wooldings. Prior to adding them made cheeks from the hounds partway down and a front fish. No iron bands as Lees suggested these did not arrive until 1800. (love the old terms)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2350.jpg

[birder]

Status, working on getting the masts ready for rigging, although quite a bit of work to do yet, presently have prepared the foremast, not either masthead though, and now progressing to the bowsprit and jibboom
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2351.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2352.jpg

[willygoat]

Very nice Glen! I love the little bitty details. Cant wait to see that thing loaded with sails and rigging.

[birder]

Thanks Willy! It is a fun project for me, hoping to get the details right, mostly a sratch-build at this point. (no reference to the watching feline):D

[member_3]

Cat, ahoy! 3 points off the starboard beam! Run out all starboard guns and fire at Will (or whatever the cat's name is!) That is a might lovely vessel you have there. I was always a little disappointed that Shipyard did not have photos of their models in the book, but rather showed various dockyard style museum pieces. It's nice to know that the same level of detail can actually be achieved in paper (and some other stuff). I do believe that the beastie in the background has nefarious plans in mind, so be on your guard!

[birder]

Aye-Aye Captain, fire when they bear! (The rudder is unshipped though so we're a bit helpless at present.) Thank-you Ron, I'm studying Lee's book, wishing for more illustrations, but hope to fill the gaps with correct detail. Part of current project is construction of a case to protect (display?) the ship as more lines begin to dangle intruigingly.:)

[Yu Gyokubun]

With beautiful mast ready, should I refer to page 270 of the Historic Ship Models?

[birder]

Right Yu! Well, I'm not really using Mondfeld presently. but Lee's, as need more exact info regarding dates when particular changes made to the rigging. Many new changes incorporated in 1773 and Cleo is just after that date! The illustration of the mast with the fish and cheeks in Mondfeld is helpful. The masts themselves, at least the larger ones, were made up of a group of interlocking square poles that were clasped together by the bands round about them. Some of the smaller masts, on smaller vessels, were single wood poles shaped to dimension, the mizzen and bowsprit in
Cleo's case.(at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it)

[birder]

Yu that's James Lees "The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860".........this book has lots of technically but concisely written information, but doesn't really have enough illustrations. One thing it has though is fascinating photos of ship models that are hundreds of years old!

[birder]

The white one's the trouble:D
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/Picture011-1.jpg

[willygoat]

It does have that evil "slash your boat to bits" look in its eyes ;)

[Yu Gyokubun]

Glen thank you for the info about Lee's. I found it at amazon.com.

White one has fearless look but the more I see it, the more I like it:)

[birder]

I think you will enjoy Lee's, Yu. I have it at work with me today to look at.
Here is my third redo on the fore channel deadeyes, I'm ok with them, thinking on the chains, but they are unfinished. Also did the trim work in dark blue rather than Shipyard brown, I thought it would look better?
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2353.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2354.jpg

[willygoat]

That's just down right snazzy!

[birder]

Thanks Willy this is still just a great model project. I ordered Bellona, and it is bigger, lots bigger, and has nice rigging diagrams!! (I don't know if I'll have the time to build it, but sure looks nice)

[birder]

Working on the foretop, channels and chains glued down for the foremast. Deadeyes for the foreshrouds are done, but have to think about what lines to use for shrouds and lanyards, also some bow parts to do, but coming close to some real rigging!:)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2358.jpg

[Yu Gyokubun]

I have been waiting for real rigging build that I guess very difficult to make it tight. I look forward to it;)

[birder]

Thanks Yu me too! Just so many little things to do. These lines for the standing rigging, the stays and the shrouds, all have adjustability for tension, but the problem is getting the deadeyes level and the masts standing straight, after the slack removed. It is a balancing act, fore and aft, port and lardboard (to use nautical terms) I don't have much clue how this will work out, but am planning to use some tricks to get it acceptably close.:)

[Don Boose]

Checking in after being off the net for a while and glad to see Cleo continues, Looks beautiful, Glen!

Don

[birder]

Nice for you to stop in Don! This old vessel is presenting new challenges presently, but it isn't too bad if my early attempts may need redoing....although I'd be delighted to get it pretty close the first go-round!

[Michael Mash]

This is my first good look at a "sailing" ship build. It really is a whole different breed of project. I think I'll continue to watch this near completion. Beautiful work.
Mike

[birder]

Thank you Michael! It certainly is a different subject than I usually tackle:), but the hull is entirely paper. Now, though the masts and cannon are home-turned wood, and some of the blocks are wood. String now the main material and the goal is to use string of scale size, 1/96 in this case, as many different thickness lines are used on a sailing ship. I have done the math from inches circ to mm diam and now have to find the right lines, the type of weave and color are other issues, so I'm still collecting varieties from the local sewing store. The line size varies from the main stay 12.5 inches circ to seizing lines of 1 in circ. The original specs are available from Steele's 1794 book. Am about ready to take on some shrouds, with some help from some wood building ship guys(forums)

[birder]

My first bobstay and bowsprit gammoning..I've been reading about this stuff for a long time, really cool to actually do some rigging!

[redhorse]

This is turning out so incredibly well!

[birder]

Thank you Jim, that is very kind and from you with your building skill is valued! I'm not really racing along on this one, though as you can see:)

[Michael Mash]

That really is a good looking old bow.
Mike

[treadhead1952]

Excellent work on the bow Glen. Looking at the careful workmanship it is hard to believe that this is a cardmodel, it certainly puts styrene to shame. Looking forward to running the rigging after all your study and homework on the subject.

[birder]

Thank-you gents for the kind words. It really is a fun and completely different type of build, especially at present:)

[Don Boose]

It's beautiful, Glen!

Don

[birder]

Thanks Don! Working on a strategy to get the shround lines up to the masthead in a symmetric fashion, also building a case to protect from dust, ect.:)

[birder]

Well, even though have not been working on this until today have been planning some method of adjustability while the lower shrouds are put up and the deadeyes secured at a level height. I glued in the mast so the shrouds don't pull it to the rear as no stays and some flex which should firm up the shrouds slightly when the main forestay and preventer are put up
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2365.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2366.jpg

[Barry]

Clever !!!!

[birder]

Thanks Barry I am very pleased you like it! I must confess that variations of this have been done, but I have the innovation only of securing the foamcore under the ship to the other channel foamcore, which gives a feel for the pull of the lines, and makes it harder to have the foamcore move while you're working on it. The finest example I have seen of this type is the build thread of Endeavor by Lukas at modelshipworld, which I have blatently copied shamelessly.

[KCStephens]

WOW, Birder, great job. Cleo's a real beauty!

[birder]

Thanks Kevin! This is still fun, and is pretty just to look at. I have to be careful not to make too many rookie mistakes!:)

[birder]

more work on deadeyes, once well attatched (seized) can take my time as I put up a temporary forestay
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2369.jpg

[B-Manic]

Your rigging looks really good Glen. You are even picking up the Naval jargon.

Ready-Aye-Ready

[Don Boose]

Excellent deadeyes.

[birder]

Thanks Douglas "Do ya hear me there!?" Don, I'm not sure that making the deadeyes is worth the time involved, but I like them in walnut. Made enough for the main lower shrouds and channels done so am pretty much unimpeded now to just work ahead. However, have another fg plane to work on now, so she may have to set on the desk and gather dust for a bit. Your May get together sounds very fine and I wish somehow I could come, maybe next year will be better (if I bring a couple Koga's zero's?).... have been contemplating converting my present one to the diorama idea, but that would not be completed by May I don't think even if I worked only on that which I won't be able to. Then make another in AAC colors hey? Just call me Old Troll....

[Wilfried]

Hello Glen,

just stumbling over your fantastic CLEOPATRA build; your build bringing over the sphere of the old sailing ships - I've had the pleasure to visit the little bigger VICTORY in 1979 in Portsmouth ... the colour of the deadeyes are perfect ... and the rest of it, too! :)

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Thank you Wilfried! This is my first try at a sailing ship, or card ship of any type for that matter, but have enjoyed it immensely. Really have only made aircraft as have designed a number of simple models for Fiddlersgreen. You can imagine how much time needed to study to build this frigate....hope to get it mostly right!

[redhorse]

Thanks for the update, Glen. It just keeps looking better and better. I hate to think how many hours you've got in this.

[birder]

Glad you like her,Jim, I guess it's fun enough not to notice the time spent:D

[Don Boose]

It sure would be great to see you some day, Glen. Especially if you bring some of those fine models! There would always be room for Cleopatter, no matter what the official theme might be.

Don

[birder]

Thanks for the kind sentiments Don, but for the obvious challenges to such a trip I would so show up.

[birder]

update, was able to run the deadeye lanyards today, but have not lashed/whipped the lanyard ends, this is theoretically so adjustability in shroud tension if the mast was pulled over to either side, but I don't plan on any adjusting now. Some work to do on odds and ends before I can do the same with the mainmast.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2371.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2370.jpg

[Don Boose]

Wow! Cleo is really a beautiful ship, Glen! The shrouds and ratlines are turning out very well.

Don

[birder]

Thank-you kindly Don! She is coming along prettily, but much to do I'm afraid yet...and learning so things not as perfect at the masthead as I would like, but overall am pleased and 'satisfied':D Will complete the forestays (the main forestay is up, preventer , bobstay and bowsprit shrouds yet to do, some finishing up the guns, ladders, boat supports and rear belaying pins I think I'll need to do as less access once the main lower shrouds go up. May also work my way up the foremast, too a bit. Loons on the lake, VG swallows in the boxes.....nice.

[birder]

Update, not much new on the ship but completed the case, not perfect, but looks pretty good to me, the end panel pulls up to access and haven't got out all the sawdust yet. The top facing end trim removes to lift the side panel. Didn't measure before putting it on the desk, but can only just remove the panel still.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2372.jpg

[Papercut]

Not only are you an accomplished ship builder, but a cabinet maker as well or I should say display case, so much talent and I do good to cut out the parts!:eek:Rick

[birder]

Rick you are much too kind, because this is my first paper ship, and some have built many ships. I am fortunate though to have done quite a bit of woodworking and some building, so built my own shop to house my tools summer before last, which is just perfect for little projects..It's just too small to build a Piper cub, bummer.:D

[dansls1]

Very nice. Is that glass sheets or plexi?

[birder]

Thank you Dan, is plexiglass. Just one sawblade kerf thick so easy construction and not overly heavy. In fact is really not heavy even with the ship together is about 10-15lbs. The heavy base makes it look more solid appearing...

[Michael Mash]

I am with you Glen. If you spend six months or more of hard work and labor on a project, then I say it deserves a dust cover. Nice job on yours.
Mike

[birder]

Thank you Mike! Was a fun little project of it's own:)

[Wilfried]

Hello Glen,

for me, your cabinet looks a little bit overscaled? :) It seems, you like to change the Cleo later against the Victory?

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Wilfried, not a bad idea....Bellona? Bellerophon? :D

[Wilfried]

Glen,

For me I like all the Chatham Ladies... :) and if you in a close contact to your better half, why not at next time an new adventure on British rulers on the waves?

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Moving nicely today, finished rigging the gundeck guns, so put up ladders and walkways already made. Belaying points not completely done but getting there so moved the foamcore to the main channels. Will hope to thow the shroud gangs over the masthead pretty soon, then on to the mizzen, before topmasts. Quite a bit to attach to the tops before the topmasts can go up. Can anytime now put on the boat racks and boats also made previously. The foremast and bowsprit are not fully stayed yet so have made the heart blocks for the fore preventer stay, bobstay and bowsprit shrouds.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2376.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2375.jpg:):)

[Don Boose]

Looks good, Glen. A complex business, that rigging!

Don

[birder]

Thanks Don, you know the learning curve on this is steep in that way, but isn't so bad (it takes so long to get there, by the time you're there you're ready for it):eek:.

[eatcrow2]

Really nice work Glen!!!!! Really like the "jig" that you made up for rigging the shrouds.. Has me looking at my "Lexington"..:)

[birder]

Thank-you Peter! Please do build the Lexington! There are many ways to do the shrouds, and none foolproof, but this I think has been do-able for a novice sailing ship builder. Overall the Shipyard kit is close to flawless, which is fun for a builder. Rigging is nearly scratch. Overall really fun:)

[birder]

Much going on presently, so progress on Cleopatter is slow but perceptible..boats temporarily on racks which are partly attached. The main stay needs to wait until a couple shroud lines up, then can attach properly, then preventer, then can tie up the mainmast deadeyes. Fore topmast is up now to stay still not showing the full height yet..but she does look more completed although far from it really:)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2455.jpg

[birder]

One more pic, originally was going to not include this one, but it does show the mainstay line going to starboard of the foremast, with it's large heart block, largest line on the whole ship excluding anchor line (cables).
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2456.jpg

[Don Boose]

Step by step she grows and gets prettier all the time, Glen.

I am VERY impressed with the rigging. By the time you finish this, you will know all the ins and outs of Napoleonic era ship fittings and rigging.

Don

[redhorse]

You know, I still can't believe this one's made out of paper. Incredible!

[Yu Gyokubun]

Glen sensei(teacher)

I am still in the middle of reading Mondfeld and am going to purchase Lees’ in the near future. With Mondfeld, Lees’ and your Cleopatra’s pictures all prerequisite for success are ready….except for my skill:(

Your student

[birder]

I am honored by your comments, Don, Jim and Yu, its just fun really, having already studied ships of sail a bit is helping. Yu, you are the master builder, but I am glad to show you some basics of sail rigging, which I have been learning. One thing about technology today research is much easier to do with internet resources. If you look in the Greenwich collection National Maritime Museum, London, ship models, search for "amazon class" a ship similar to Cleopatter is there, built in 1780!

[birder]

Progress on the mainmast head, jeers, stays with stay mouse, in this scale have taken some shortcuts as needed, but I think the effect is overall there. Next up, lots of smaller deadeyes, mizzen chains to prepare for mizzen shrouds to get caught up with the other masts.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2503.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2504.jpg

[member_3]

Aye, the old gal is looking more and more shipshape. If the yard workers are slacking off I recommend a judicious application of the cat. That usually sets them straight. This thread makes me want to open up my Billings "Wasa" and revert to my wooden ship model days.

[birder]

Aye Captain, if we had our full compliment of help this vessel would have been fitted out and in service. We may have to resort to the press to be anywhere near schedule.:D

[Michael Mash]

Nice detail on that rigging work Glen. Yes, it reminds me of the sailing ships I used to build in plastic as a kid.
Mike

[Don Boose]

Fine work on the rigging, Glen!

Don

[eatcrow2]

I think the rigging is outstanding... Just beautiful work on the whole model.

[Wilfried]

I think the rigging is outstanding... Just beautiful work on the whole model.

no hurry, you are on the right way; this lady is on the way to be one of the best sailing ship models made of cardboard, we've ever seen ...

with lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[redhorse]

I love the updates, Glen! Wonderful work.

[Barry]

Looks wonderful how you get your fingers around everything is beyond me. Look forward to the next installment.

[birder]

Thank you my friends for your kind remarks! Just for that I took a set of pics of the ship as she is presently,
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2507.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2506.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2508.jpg

[Don Boose]

Very impressive, Glen!

Don

[birder]

Thank you again Don! Credit must be given to Shipyard for designing such a model. They anticipated the possibilities with these kits, and even suggest ways to improve on the card kit, much as I am attempting to do. Although I must make myself go slowly, my natural tendency is to push on through, but this type of thing has to be done properly, and it just takes time to research the details.

[Yu Gyokubun]

Glen,
Seeing the pictures of your ship, your research is payed off.
I've made up my mind to buy Lee's so that I may be able to build a sailing ship as half good as yours

Yu

[birder]

Yu-sama, I look forward to seeing your ship!! It is a different type of model than what we usually build, some thought into paint colors and overall colors to try to make it match. If you need to know what colors I used I can recall most of them. Have you considered a particular ship?

[Michael Mash]

Impressive. And larger than I realized. What is the total length of the hull?
Mike

[eatcrow2]

Stunning work!!!! Beautiful photos showing the current stage of the model....

[birder]

Thank you Yu, Michael, and Peter! On this one you just keep plugging along and the beauty of the model comes out.. as sailing ships are beautiful from an asthetic point of view. She is about 18 inches without jib, so exact measure will have to wait till I get home. One way to judge scale is that the shroud lines are.7mm, the mainstay 1.3 mm. The lanyards for the deadeyes are .5mm, and the deadeyes are 4.5mm
Peter I was able to get some pictures without needing flash, so shadows from the light coming in the window adds to the view.

[birder]

Overall length is 24 inches now, will be a couple inches longer with the mizzen boom. Estimated overall height should be about 20 inches. This will probably fill the case pretty well by then

[Michael Mash]

Overall length is 24 inches now, will be a couple inches longer with the mizzen boom. Estimated overall height should be about 20 inches. This will probably fill the case pretty well by then

The furniture in the backround gave me the impression the hull might have been closer to 36 inches. Nice work mate!
Mike

[Wilfried]

Hello Glen,

your Cleopatra looks at the moment like a ship in that time should be; the rigg is well dimensioned and the ropes well proven before add ... all in all a very good imagine ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Wilfried you are most kind! I'm having fun trying to build this the way the wood modelers do as far as the rigging goes. Some of the wood modelers have answered questions I've posed for them about details I was unsure of, and Mondfeld's book and James Lees' book also are helping me stay on track as possible. Some things are hard to do in this scale 1/96, when some of the wood models are 1/64 or 1/48. I'm not worming and serving, or paying full attention to direction of line winding, but these things would not be easily done or visable. Thank you for following this, it really has been alot of fun to do!;)

[Wilfried]

Hello Glen,

I think, we all have the same inspirations when we build models; diving into a century - where our models are situated in real .. and bringin' them back in our livetime - or not? :)
You have a reference like Wolfram von Mondfeld - a very good choice; If you go further in the future with models like you do now, I can heartly recommend the "Bemastung und Takelung von Schiffen des 18. Jahrhunderts" from Karl Heinz Marquardt ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Thanks Wilfried! And thank you Michael! Was a striking contrast to metal vessels that came along so soon, yes? Merchant vessels of sail were contemporaries of your model and for some time to follow, up to about WWI...was enjoying the Star of India a couple years back, such a feast for the eyes..

[birder]

Progress may not be visable, so will point the eye, redid the railing as had taken some abuse from handling, and am rigging the 12lb guns and building swivel guns (not shown). Deck furnishings are made, but removed to allow access to the guns for installation. No real choice, and this all has to be done before the mizzen can be started. So overall very little change, but once the mizzen and lines go up, then can start with the topmast riggging and things will move more noticably
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2568.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2569.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2515.jpg

[Padre]

That looks GREAT. I love old sailing ships, I built two wood ships myself. One of these days I am going to have to try one of the Shipyards ships.............BUT I HATE rigging!!!

Great job!

[birder]

Padre, thank you sir! As for the rigging....:eek: Actually I am not loosing interest in the rigging, I guess because of the challenge?:)

[Yu Gyokubun]

Yu-sama, I look forward to seeing your ship!! It is a different type of model than what we usually build, some thought into paint colors and overall colors to try to make it match. If you need to know what colors I used I can recall most of them. Have you considered a particular ship?

Glen-san,

How nice to know that I have sailing ship specialist to count on.
I have Cleopatra in hand but you are building superb one so 'Santa Leocadia' may be or Alert might be better as a starter because it has only one mast....

[birder]

Yu-san, you could build a beautiful ship of any of those, also Shipyard has the brig Lexington (two masts), how about Victory?:D (100 guns:eek:) Bellona with 74 and 3 masts of course is making me have second thoughts!

[birder]

This is showing the swivel guns, I only have 3 of 12 made, but just a rolled peice of paper with strips of paper on for detail, and painted flat black, compared to a 12 lb gunhttp://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2571.jpg
Still working on the best way to mount them on the post, would very much like them to "swivel" but fear of putting a wire through without comprimising the paper tube...

[eatcrow2]

Those look great Glen!!!!!!!!

[member_3]

Well, they are very impressive for "just a rolled piece of paper..." You certainly have a way with "fiddly bits" and this model is going to be museum quality when finished.

[birder]

Thank you Peter and Ron! I'm trying...erratum the other gun is a 6 lb gun the 12's are quite larger, but are done as far as complete guns, I have quite a few "dummy" guns to make but only the barrel tip needs detail, besides the port lids and something to support the gun that can fit in the port.

[cjwalas]

I'm continually amazed at just how fantastic this is coming out. You've maintained a really high level of quality at every step. This will indeed be a museum quality piece!
Chris

[Don Boose]

Just found the photos of the swivel guns. Amazing little rolled pieces of paper!

Don

[birder]

Thank you my friends, this is really fun, although too involved to devote time to uninterruped (I'd be seeing double swivel guns in my sleep I think):D

[Yu Gyokubun]

Glen-san, early this morning I saw the swivel gun but I couldn't believe it is made of paper and I thought my glasses have some problem so I bought new one then see it again. Now :eek::eek::eek:
When you build next sailing ship please let me know beforehand so that I can avoid being embrrassed by building same ship.

By the way, you have lucky lines in your hand. It shows a long life.

[birder]

HA! Yu-san I'm still chuckling over your comments.. but sincerely appreciate them! Of course this is not as small a tube to roll as some here, although I did study Wilfried's method, these are rolled dry with bond paper, to get a small tube and rolled smaller with the wire used to roll with removed, trimming extra paper away as tube narrows. This is how I normally do that, but am anxious to attempt adding water..

[birder]

Just a comment on the armament carried by this ship, there is considerable confusion and I think I have come to understand the situation-maybe-, well, the records consider her a 32 gun frigate of Amazon class. The model of the Amazon at Greenwich displays 8 six# and 28 12# guns, which is 36. Shipyard has paper rolls which could be used as guns, 26 12# and 10 6# which would make 36. The placement of the guns varies as well, and the Amazon model has all 8 6# guns on the quater/poop deck none on the focsl. Modellers have interpreted this in different ways, but I think although ports for 28 guns are present the forward two considered airing ports and usually not holding a 12 # cannon. Which would make 26 12's. The six# guns could be more easily moved about the ship and I think have multiple placings that could be used so the 6 total (to make up 32) would usually be 2 forcastle and 4 quarterdeck/poop. Does anyone have more to add to this?

[shrike]

Only that ships cannon were very mobile during their lifetimes and that it wouldn't be unusual to find a mixed bag of guns, or that at one time or another she might have carried enough 6# cannon to fill out the ports at the expense of a few larger guns, or vice versa. I imagine the captain would outfit the ship to suit his personal preference - whether he preferred a longer range encounter or up close and nasty.

She could also have mounted carronades, which often weren't counted as 'guns' for the official tally

[birder]

I think that is just so, Shrike! Your's is an excellent description of the variability of these ships. There were times that guns had to be removed to lighten the load of the ship, and so many variations, as with the rigging, that although the ship was built in 1778 it survived until 1814, and may have been upgraded with regards to rigging several times. Could even have been coppered, if it was a larger vessel.:)

[Michael Mash]

Enjoyed your comments on the arament Glen. You and Shrike provide some good information on the flexibility of these ships as to what guns they carried, and when.
Mike

[birder]

Quarterdeck furnishings getting attached
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2608.jpg

[Barry]

A lot of fine detail there Glen nice work

[birder]

Thank you Barry! I was getting a bit bogged down in the fiddly bits, but almost to where I can go up vertically again:)

[member_3]

Hmmmm...what's that old saying?? "The devil's in the fiddly bits?" You would appear to be a master fiddler, sir.

[birder]

Thank you sir! I will be glad when the hull details are done and can spend energy on rigging again, it is really fun..I do have to do the gunport lids, but Cleo only has a few compared to most fighting ship models of the age. I'm looking forward to having the topmasts up and stayed.

[eatcrow2]

Love the detailing that your getting done on this. Gets better with each update.

[redhorse]

Glen, I don't think I've commented on Cleopatra for a while now... but I'm seriously enjoying this build. Every update is great, it's up there with Eib's Arizona for me.

[Yu Gyokubun]

‘getting a bit bogged down in the fiddly bits’…I looked up trusty OXFORD English dictionary but I don’t understand what does the writer try to get across by this but considering the context it seems Glen-san is saying it humbly because Cleo is getting meaner by the minute. Is my English comprehension right?

[Art Deco]

YuG, a "bog" (or "swamp") is an area with water covering the land, very muddy and difficult to cross. To "get bogged down" is to be slowed down by something that takes a lot of time or energy to get through, like trying to walk through a muddy bog. So, he's saying he's "getting a little slowed down by the small parts which are difficult to handle".

By the way, I often admire your English - your grammar, range of vocabulary and knowledge of idioms is very impressive! :)

[birder]

Thanks for the kind words guys, hoping to post progress, so you can see I'm still plugging away at this ship!:) Yu-san, thank you again for your support on this build;)

[Michael Mash]

Nice looking image of all that fine detail Glen. I like the "red" gun carriages beneath the black gun barrels.
MIke

[Yu Gyokubun]

Thanks a lot, Art Deco. Now clear. Glen-san, you are welcome:)

[Wilfried]

Sorry guys,

my small knowledge of the English language doesn't allow me to dive into the fine colloquial language used at Oxford and Cambridge, sorry! Glen, let me say it in my "Oxbridge", your build is becoming a very fine masterpiece! :)

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Thanks once again Wilfried and Mike.:) I have "discovered" Google translator, has made it possible now for me to read your forum, Wilfried, and I find it fascinating! I don't know what a post translated to German sounds, like, probably not exactly right..:rolleyes:

[elliott]

Hi Birder!

I'm so glad to find that you're an active member here. This thread is more comprehensive than at the other site - guess that comes from more support here. I'm with you; the hull and deck furniture is always tedious in the extreme to me. I look forward to rigging as soon as I start. That makes the rest of it bearable. The high quality of your work speaks for itself. What do you have planned for your next adventure?

[Wilfried]

I have "discovered" Google translator, has made it possible now for me to read your forum, Wilfried, and I find it fascinating! I don't know what a post translated to German sounds, like, probably not exactly right..:rolleyes:

Hello Glen,

I use the Google translator sometimes; it is a good crutch to help you act in a foreign language; the translations could not be perfect especially in building reports; but in relationship with the pics they are ok. All forums are very proud to have members of foreign countries; little errors in grammar are blown away with a smile ... :) We all speak one language - cardmodelling - this language is global ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Elliott hello! :):)Yes the thread was started here, but thought would share for others contemplating these kits that might enjoy it, as I wade into unknown territory. The Shipyard kits are a joy to build, well fitting and well researched. Next project? I have various things already going.. but officially I don't really know yet! Just made a plexi case for my Hal Zero.
Wilfried, you're right of course, pictures are better than words for modelers:D

[birder]

Putting in some little things at the stern of the ship that may be easier to access now before the mizzen is up:)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2626.jpg

[B-Manic]

Cleopatra is looking very fine Glen. The level of detail is amazing, the more you add the better it gets.

[Jimmy Three Shoes]

Wow!!!! I keep finding more great builds!!!!!! This would be way too hard for me, but looks REAL!!!

[Phil]

I am so out of my league...Fabulous work Glen!

[elliott]

Nice work Glen. The deck looks great. Have you been holystoning it again?

[cjwalas]

Simply an astonishing masterwork, Glen! I cannot express how impressed I am with the quality, amount and fortitude of your efforts!
Chris

[birder]

Thank you Douglas, Jimmy, Phil, Elliott, and Chris, for the kind words. I'm having fun doing these little things and trying to put it together the way it may have looked. Have the bumpers and stairs on the hull now, too, so next up more rigging!! Elliott, you noticed the holystoned grey color, I did recolor the decks, last year(!) with photoshop. :)

[Michael Mash]

Unless I am mistaken, this must be one of the oldest (in historical terms) ship builds on the site. It is a real education to see this done in paper/card. And it has more color than just about anything going. Nice work Glen.
MIke

[elliott]

No one ever said I was fast on the uptake! :p

[birder]

Thanks Mike you didn't mean the slowest-oldest build,:D it is fun, I have not made a modern warship, so don't know how to compare to one, with all those railings, and small peices on deck.
(Elliott, you may not of seen the beginnings of this build as this thread has been moved from the "No Comfort and Joy Challenge")

[birder]

Progress on Cleopatter, mizzen up and stayed, so standing rigging for lower masts pretty much done. I have made some spars and gaff jaws and driver boom jaws and boom, thinking ahead although the upper masts first up.http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2627.jpg
amd here is how the model looks presently
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2628.jpg:)

[Barry]

just enjoying watching. A lesson in history no less

[Don Boose]

". . . mizzen up and stayed, so standing rigging for lower masts pretty much done. I have made some spars and gaff jaws and driver boom jaws and boom . . ."

This thread is now my substitute for the late lamented Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey and Maturin novels. Even if there is no dolphin striker.

[birder]

Thank you most kindly both of you who's opinion I admire highly, I am happy to provide some interest! And happy to have folks enjoy looking in at the process, although not really delving into the rigging of deadeyes or lathe turning of masts or spars, as not really papermodeling. However, I would like to point out a tip I found to use the thread itself as the needle through blocks, deadeyes and such as must be, you soak the tip in thin superglue and let it dry, works like a charm to save time.

[B-Manic]

You are really bringing Cleopatra to life Glen. Your build makes me want to start on Alert however . . .

[birder]

Thanks, Douglas! Do you have Alert with the laser cut frames and everything? That seems like it would build easier but is a bit pricey?:eek: I think a great first sailing ship.:)

[birder]

Just wondering if this link works
F2897-2 - 'Amazon', starboard ¾ bow (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/greenblackwall/viewRepro.cfm?reproID=F2897%2D2#content)
contemporary model as Lees would say

[Michael Mash]

Looks terrific Glen. These old sailing vessels really are a real piece of work when it comes to rigging. I am enjoying watching yours.
Mike

[birder]

Thank you Michael! I have more time to think and plan than to work on her, so nice to get a few things done!:)

[B-Manic]

Thanks, Douglas! Do you have Alert with the laser cut frames and everything? That seems like it would build easier but is a bit pricey?:eek: I think a great first sailing ship.:)

Yes I do. It seems a pretty pricey but, not for what you get. I got it on E-bay over a year ago for a very good price. It comes with masts, lines, brass cannons, paint and brushes, glue and pretty much everything else you need including a comprehensive build manual.

I highly recommend it, and if you can get it for a good price so much the better. I don't know when I will build it, perhaps after I retire but, it does keep calling out to me.

[milenio3]

amazing!!!

[Wilfried]

Hello Glen,

absolute fantastic; to bring an old sailing ship alive is the highest level in cardmodelling. I've seen a lot of beginners - but you're one of the modellers, who jump over the cliffs when riggin' is on the plan ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

Thank you for those kind words Gerardo and Wilfried! :):);) This model is a great design by Shipyard, just have to be willing to spend the time to build it is all. (will be a year next month:eek:)

[birder]

Not much card here. but I'm hoping you guys don't mind, as I'm proud of this main yard and blocks. The yard is turned wood, the wire is floral wire, and the rings for the studding-sail booms are card. The blocks under the tops are for the buntline blocks and for the leechline, still trying to figure this out as hoping to represent the blocks as they would be on a yard although am not now planning on putting up sails (want to see the rigging)which isn't on yet..
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2631.jpghttp://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2630.jpg
It is really fun to finally make a yardarm..been reading so much about this, unfortunately have uncovered a couple errors on my part, but not sure if they are needing correction, oh Don for sailing terms note the catharpins and futtock shrouds

[redhorse]

Glen, this is one of my favorite builds ever. Looks every bit as good as the best wooden ships and another addition to the ICBIMOOP category. Did I get the acronym right?

[birder]

Thanks again Jim, if it wasn't so much fun to do I would have quit a loong time ago, but keep finding more fun stuff to do. I did "cheat" on the futtock shrouds, usually made with a wire loop for the upper deadeyes, but I used the line of the shroud to run up around the deadeyes, I did try the wire first, but not only tedious was hard on the card tops, so used this method. Will allow me to proceed without bogging down too much:)

[Yu Gyokubun]

Glen-san, I always enjoy your thread making reference to the book you recommended but today I am in the office without the book so there are a lot of terminologies I have to check later but enjoyable by seeing photos of ICBTMOP or slightly different ICBIMOOP:)

[birder]

Thank you Yu-san! I had to work more than I wanted this week so I know how it goes, but was able today finally to sit down with Cleopatra.:)

[dansls1]

I bet only the author of the book you read would be able to tell if you corrected your errors or not ;)

This is such an incredible model. I love seeing updates to this thread ;)

[birder]

Thanks Dan, I'm trying to finish to move on to other projects, but it is too much fun to do any others just yet:)

[B-Manic]

Looking good Glen - I really like the no sails idea. Show off that rigging.

[Don Boose]

Glen -- I missed your post yesterday. Just saw it now. Yes - your cat-harpins are great, and I can imagine the Jolly Jack Tars clambering up, hanging upside down from the futtock shrouds . . . but I'm not sure that we are allowed to say "futtock shrouds" in public.

Seriously, though, this is a magnificent model.

Don

[mabrown]

Absolutely beautiful model. You can be justifiably proud of this work of art.

[Barry]

Looks great ..........a sudden thought with the detail you have already included are you going to tie the foot ropes with individual knots ?

[birder]

Thank you Douglas, Don, Mark and Barry for your kind words. I'm planning to tye all the ratline knots but use a small thread so not too huge a knot in this scale, you're right Barry will be a mindless chore to do, but I think will show the ship properly. Don, Patrick O'brien made frequent references to the studding sails, or studs'ls mentioned the lubbers hole which is the space the shrouds go through of course, though no sailor would be caught
entering the top without climbing up the futtock shrouds(which also have ratlines). Also have footropes and blocks to go on the yard and jeer blocks before she can be swayed up into place to be prepared for the bending of sail (which I am omitting I think). Then it will be an approximate run and fall and eventual belaying of the various lines...I'll go into that later..........:)

[Michael Mash]

Always a treat to see new images of this masterpiece. The rigging on something like this is quite a project. Nice work.
Mike

[birder]

Thank you Mike, you are right the rigging causes me to use quite a bit of reference material, but is rewarding it it's own way:)

[elliott]

I've been waiting for you to get more completely into the rigging phase of your build and am really enjoying all I've seen so far. Are you enjoying rigging her more than building her hull or is it more each has its own rewards? Either way, keep raising the bar!

[birder]

Elliott, yes I recall you are fond of rigging, yes? It is all new to me, although I thought I had a general idea of the rigging plan, it is more research intensive than the hull, and errors that may haunt me are more likely to occurr here. Is that a vague answer or what? Here's what I've done to improve the look of the main top, will move to fore top next:)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2633.jpg

[Gharbad]

:eek: Rigging!

It's scary looking, looks great Glen.

[Yu Gyokubun]

It looks like real ship's rigging! I can see with my mind eye Jack Sparrow is holding a rope with his left hand and wielding his sword with right hand there

[dansls1]

It looks like real ship's rigging! I can see with my mind eye Jack Sparrow is holding a rope with his left hand and wielding his sword with right hand there

Really? Because I'm picturing Keira Knightley...

Ship still looks awesome - amazing patience and attention to detail. I would compliment you more but I am a mere engineer and run out of words. Perhaps I need to start making some up :D

[Yu Gyokubun]

Really? Because I'm picturing Keira Knightley...

Ship still looks awesome - amazing patience and attention to detail. I would compliment you more but I am a mere engineer and run out of words. Perhaps I need to start making some up :D

Wow! Keira Knightley... She is wonderful. I've changed my mind. Jack Sparrow is holding Elizbeth in his arms on there in the moonlit night

[birder]

That's Captain, Captain Jack Sparrow:D

[birder]

Sorry Yu-san to distract from your mental image from a moonlight evening sailing along aloft, there must have been some nice scenes from the main top sometimes, despite the hardships of sailing life.:)

[Michael Mash]

Impressive image of the main top Glen. The deadeyes are all there along with a lot of rope. It gives it a very authentic look. Nice work.
Mike

[elliott]

Elliott, yes I recall you are fond of rigging, yes? It is all new to me, although I thought I had a general idea of the rigging plan, it is more research intensive than the hull, and errors that may haunt me are more likely to occurr here. Is that a vague answer or what? Here's what I've done to improve the look of the main top, will move to fore top next:)

Yes, I find rigging most interesting. I suppose it's the interplay of hundreds (thousands?) of blocks, sheaves, etc., combined with miles of line in different sizes, colors and purposes, used to drive a ship weighing hundreds (thousands?) of tons through the water. Also how it all combines with sails to create what appears to be a lacy ethereal appearance when, in reality, the parts are massive and heavy. And the whole clunky thing works!

Please forgive my poor attempts at describing the indescribable. Patrick O'Brien (Forester, Melville, etc.) I'm not.

Your picture of the maintop reminds me of drawings in Longridge's Victory book. Well done!

[birder]

Thank you Kuba, Yu, Dan, Mike, Elliott:):):):):) Will post progress when some occurrs, Yu Mondfeld is helpful on the yards and sail lines, which blocks will have to be represented, and the yard braces and clewlines even though no sails..should be fun?:eek: The Shipyard drawings do show in general where these lines they suggest should go, but the way of attaching the blocks and tackle and falls for lines that need it are not shown. So it is up to my interpretation, which isn't all bad, who could argue?:D

[Wilfried]

Hello Glen,

if you like, make a list of all rigging questions are not fulfilled with help of the Mondfeld. Send me a PM. Maybe I can give you some solutions from my library ..?

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

[birder]

That's kind of you Wilfried, nice of you to offer I may need some assistance if I can't figure it out with the references I have, (quite a bit accumilating):)

[Yu Gyokubun]

Hardship of sailing life reminds me of my youth when I joined a shipping company about 30 years ago. My then boss recommended me to read “Two Years Before The Mast” which describes common sailor’s hardship of sailing life on board in 19th century. As you said some scenes must have been spectacular then when earth did not have environment pollution. Clear sky, skyful of stars, blue lagoon, and verdant hillside on the island and so on.
To get a better grasp what you said I brought Mondfeld with me today to the office. When I build first sailing ship she will be no sails to enjoy seeing those detailed tackles, deadeyes, shrouds, stays…. even though they are not correct we can enjoy the feel of sailing ship that must be the most beautiful creature human being ever created.

[birder]

Nicely said Yu-san!:) Have you read any Alan Villiers'? He wrote nice articles for National Geographic in the 30's-50's but I'm reading "The War With Cape Horn" great book about the last days of sail. Wilfried's beloved "Flying P line" of Hamburg amoung the finest sail ships of any era, of which Passat-Verlag has two examples for sale in card. The only sailing example being the Kruzeckstern, ex-Padua which Fly model has made available also.

[Don Boose]

Mondfeld is a good resource, Yu-sama.

I once read a LOT of Alan Villiers, Glen, and hope to do so again, but was unaware until now of The War With Cape Horn. I'm building a big "to read" list as well as a "to build" list in the short time I have after finishing the current teaching stint and before the next wave hits.

And as we discuss good books about sailing ships, may I recommend "The Last Grain Race" by Eric Newby. It is a little like Dana's book in that it is an amateur's account of a first (and last) voyage as crew of a sailing ship. In Newby's case, it was the great sailing ships that carried grain across the seas just before WWII. The Last Grain Race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Grain_Race)

Newby is a great writer and had many and varied experiences (Special Boat Service in WWII, escaped prisoner of war in the Balkans, the fashion business, hiking in Afghanistan, boating on the Ganges River, and so on), each of which he turned into a book. The titles alone indicate the range: The Last Grain Race; A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush; Something Wholesale; Slowly Down the Ganges; Time off in Southern Italy: Love and War in the Apennines; The Big Red Train Ride; Round Ireland in Low Gear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Newby

And then there was Fitzroy MacLean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Fitzroy_MacLean,_1st_Baronet


Don

[birder]

You have opened the book on a number of interesting subjects, Don! Thanks for the recomended read, and I recall Villiers writing about the grain races in the Geographic, with photos of the old merchant sailers waiting at Aland(sp?).
Just a note on my paper frigate, the main and fore stays, mouse and all, had to be replaced due to wrong configuration at the masthead, so that is done and now am moving ahead will post pic shortly.

[birder]

Well here's the pic, topmast shrouds and deadeyes, upper crosstrees with topmast stay and bad hair day on the foretop. We're camping this weekend so no changes to Cleo for a bit:):
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2643.jpg

[Michael Mash]

Nice image of her, awaiting your return. Enjoy your camping.
Mike

[birder]

Thanks Mike! Yes wonderful time at the Ocean, my son was able to start lots of campfires, and marine invertebrates aplenty. Back after the long drive to the daily grind shortly, but am happy with Cleo as the main topmast was not too bad, so hoping the fore and mizzen will go well, have to try maybe slightly harder to acheive the proper symmetry.

[Wyvern]

Birder, this is coming along beautifully, and you are doing a superb job! Far as I'm concerned, this wouldn't be out of place in a museum. I've got Shipyard's Alert/LaCoureur package, and am mining your build thread for tips. As a frigate man, I'd love to acquire Cleopatra as well. I've followed your posts on modelshipworld, too.
Wyvern

[member_3]

This continues as one of the most inspiring threads on this site. The rigging of 17th-19th century sailing ships can be a daunting task for the modeler but your diligent research and skillful construction are making it look easy.

[birder]

Thank- you kindly Ron, I know you have some shipbuilding time yourself, I think it is more difficult the first go-round, but this also gives one the chance to try things not usually done....;) Wyvern thanks, you can't go wrong with a shipyard kit as far as fit goes I think as far as museums go there are lots of models better than this in wood as you know, but fewer in paper so far, so hoping to have a little taste of Greenwich here (sortof):):)

[birder]

Just an update on Cleopatter, the first backstays are up, to the main upper crosstrees, but while attempting to put up the topmast stay I ran into a snag. The tops are not right, my building or Shipyard's parts I think both, but a space needs to exist behind the masthead on each top, and there isn't any. This space is for the passage of lines (topmast stay for example) so I spent today making this space while dodging lines I really didn't want to have to repair, however the job is done now, and the topmast stay is in the process of being run to the deck, but it has a tackle and falls to make to have this happen, also the first yet on this boat. I had to assume slightly how the run of this is, but hooked to an eyebolt on deck abaft the foremast on the starboard side. My way of thinking is the main topmast isn't done with standing rigging until the stay and preventer stay are up, then can move to the foretopmast.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2662.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2663.jpg

[Michael Mash]

Very nice image of her Glen. Intersting reading your account of "engineering" the various rigging elements.
Mike

p.s. I just noticed you are in eastern Washington. That must be near the "badlands". Is that where you do your camping? I saw an interesting program about how they may have been formed (theory). Fastinating geography.

[birder]

Thanks Mike! I'm pretty satisfied at times to just look at the ship as the lines and symmetry of the design had been refined over the centuries to this level of wooden sailing craft.
(Yes Eastern Washington is very different than Western, the Cascade mountains being the divider of the wet West from the dry East, much like Oregon (Ashrunner, Carl). We are not near the "badlands" as I know, but the Palouse to the South, North Idaho to the East, "Potholes" to the Southwest, Canada (BC) to the North. My son and I went to Newport Ore for our "traditional summer coast trip." The temp on the coast is nice and cool even though inland usually hot and dry this time of year.)

[eibwarrior]

It's been a while since I've commented Glen. Great work on the rigging. My father-in-law builds ships of sail. I'm very impressed with his and your skill.

This is definitely not a kit for a novice, and you're presenting it beautifully.

[birder]

Thank you kindly Eib, comments from you and Mike who have built such nice ships are valued highly. I think with sailing ships card holds a great potential, as the wood kits can be expensive and require more tools and space to build, but card results can be similar in some ways. I am learning this as it goes along, but as mentioned it takes so long to get this far it is ample time to learn it seems..(officially one year on the hobby desk this month!!)

[B-Manic]

You'll be a rigging expert before you are finished this Glen. All I know is she looks more beautiful every time I see her.

[birder]

Thanks Douglas, I think the changes now are smaller, and you can pretty much tell what she'll be when done (no sails planned at present.)

[Don Boose]

Cleo is looking very good, indeed, Glen. In the close-up shot of the top, I can't find any trace of your delicate surgery. Watching you build this beautiful ship has been a real pleasure, and I always enjoy hearing about your interesting life -- and the birds.

Don

[birder]

Thank you my friend, we are both at work today...no work on Cleo, but I did bring the La5 with me should any time permit (unlikely though). I think the opening up the top worked ok on the foremast, but still trying to get such a good look for the maintop (alot of lines in the way). Don, I picked up a book at a used book store at the coast, "Incredible Victory" by Walter Lord, about the defense of Midway island, lacks your writing skill and references, but is an interesting read, 1967 I think. Amazing indeed is a nightime raid by PBY's of all things all the way from Oahu.

[Don Boose]

Glen -- I'm happy to have my writing compared to that of Walter Lord. Both Lord (another Baltimore boy, with family connections to the Old Bay Line) and John Toland wrote highly readable and generally historically sound books on the Pacific War, as well as other subjects. I remember reading Incredible Victory with great pleasure and think it still holds up very well, as does his Pearl Harbor book, Day of Infamy.

I'm in the office doing student evals that I should have finished up last week (but, among other things, I got sidetracked trying to figure out the kanji on the tail of Gordon's Halinsky Ki-84, which was much more fun).

I'm trying to clear the decks because oldest grandson, Don4, arrives tomorrow for his annual week-long visit, during which we intend to spend a couple of days in Philadelphia, including visits to the Maritime Museum, the battleship New Jersey across the river, and the Franklin Institute. Might do a little model building together, as well.

I'm looking forward to seeing the future work on Cleopatter and the La5.

Don

[birder]

Don have fun!!

[Wyvern]

Birder- your recent photo (with the sofa as a backdrop) is just... fantastic. And the detail shot of your maintop... incredible. Truly paper engineering. The highest compliment I can pay you is that your build has me itching to start one of my Ship yard models and try to do half as good a job as you are!
You may have addressed this earlier and I missed it, but are you working with your kit's original parts or scans? I read on another site where Shipyard modelers often, due to the cost and intricacy of their ShipYard kit, scan the parts rather than use the originals.
I've got a Washington connection, as well- two year's residency in Bremerton. I hated to leave, at the time.
Regards,
Wyvern

[birder]

Thxs Wyvern, this has been an ongoing project, but I would do it over again in a heartbeat. Exactly right about Shipyard, flawless kits, although if you take them this far then details need to be filled in by the builder. I have been copying my kits for some time, on my printer, only a couple pages that I worked on colors, ect, I scanned into photoshop.
There are wood parts, the masts and yards, the cannon, mostly. The beginning of the construction is in the No Comfort and Joy contest thread. It may help if you do "embark" on such a kit...it is fun building!!
(When winter comes we will be wishing we were in Florida;))

[Papercut]

OK, now you opened the door,(HMS Victory) I will ask: Will HMS Victory be in your future. I have followed your threads and must say for anyone thinking about tackling one of these works of art, your threads will help them along the build. There are several that are no longer printed that I hope to see re-done. However HMS Victory is available. I do like the high end kits, but after looking at them more closely, I just can not justify the price for them. But the HMS Victory is a good deal. I do foresee her in a future build from me. Most of the tall ships I have build have been in wood, but I am willing to give a paper version a chance after seeing what you have done with this one. I for one think you have done an outstanding job and keep going with and not give up!:DRick

[birder]

Hey Rick, was away from computer a couple days, I think possibly Bellona next up if I do another Shipyard? There are so many builds of the Victory and some nice ones in paper. Bellona as a Slade 74 is very tempting, as is Fly's Kruze..(Padua easier to spell). I don't really have hard plans laid, as I have a design I'm working on for fg hopefully to finish, and another or two I'd like to do (aircraft). ( I've even considered a nameless 74 out of Shipyards Bellona, as many famous 74's have not been modeled in paper)

I do hope my trial and error approach is helpful for someone doing these ships, and the kit's fit is good, having experience building a napoleonic era warship invaluable I would think.

[Wyvern]

Hey Glen, I was just going through your photos on this thread again and again I am stunned. I too would love to see a "generic" 74. Another couple of ships I'd love to see ShipYard (or someone) put out would be HMS Agamemnon (allegedly Nelson's favorite of his commands, a 64) or the 4-deck Santissima Trinidad as she fought at Trafalgar.
Regards,
Wyvern

[Papercut]

Hey Glen, I was just going through your photos on this thread again and again I am stunned. I too would love to see a "generic" 74. Another couple of ships I'd love to see ShipYard (or someone) put out would be HMS Agamemnon (allegedly Nelson's favorite of his commands, a 64) or the 4-deck Santissima Trinidad as she fought at Trafalgar.
Regards,
WyvernOh yea, the HMS Agamemnon, now that would be one to build.:eek:Rick

[Wyvern]

Rick, I guess we can hope someone at ShipYard reads this forum and takes note of our wish list!

Wyvern

[birder]

Working my way upward to the highest point of the ship, above the upper crosstrees to attach the topgallantmast shrouds. (only done on the main so far) The upper crosstrees just act as spreaders in this case as the shroud line passes through them. Also up are the stays for the foretopmast which pass down to the bees alongside the end of the bowsprit and I think attach by thimbles and a lanyard to eyebolts on the front of the outer hull beside the base of the bowsprit.http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2686.jpghttp://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2687.jpghttp://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/IMG_2688.jpg

[Michael Mash]

See this. Look at the height of those masts! Wonderful Glen. This adds another dimension to a ship that already has so much going for it. Nice overhead shot as well.
Mike

[Yu Gyokubun]

I can’t squeeze out witty comment though you inspire me with those superb masts. Please wait until I build enough vocabulary to express my impressions

[birder]

Thanks Mike and Yu-san(nice to hear from you!):):). My plan is to complete the standing rigging the month of August, as it was August of last year that I started glueing formers. Although my original goal of having her completed would mean rushing, and subsequent mistakes, so can see the standing rigging nearly done now!! There is much to do, of course, even on deck with the remaining guns and ports, but not realistic to have the yards up and rigged this quickly.

[Michael Mash]

I hope you don't hurry Glen. I (and probably many others) are enjoying seeing your work one step at a time. Just like the old saying: "its the journey, not the destination".
Mike

[Don Boose]

Nothing to add on the build, but an Army War College colleague who has just begun the Aubrey-Maturin books (and who has borrowed my collection of Patrick O'Brian references, including the Lobscouse book) was in the office this morning and I showed him this thread, which he looked through with fascination. He's a P-3 driver getting in touch with the old sailing Navy.

He not only was amazed at Cleopatter, but he waws impressed at your command of the language of lines, standing and running, not to mention spars and take-ul.

Don

[birder]

That is fun to know Don, thanks! I read all those POB books including the "Unknown Shore" and "The Golden Ocean" the latter based on the amazing factual account of the British rounding the Horn for Naval purposes and surprising the superior Spanish Navy. Harsh times, those, though. Did finish Walter Lord's book and found it wonderful as he capaply (probably from interviewing survivors as his more famous book on the Titanic) expresses views from both sides and many concurrent story lines. The plastering taken by the Yorktown and her hard-working crew, wow.

[elliott]

I was thinking along the same lines Glen. Your English sailing navy vocabulary has increased to the point that I must ask - when do you plan to start writing naval fiction? :D Are you enjoying the rigging process yet?

@ Don - I thought it was tay-kul. Help? :confused:

[Don Boose]

elliott -- That's what I was trying to say -- tay-kul. Your phonetic transcription is better than mine. Don

[Wyvern]

Or as Dewey Lambdin's Capt. Alan Lewrie, RN, refers to it, "all that nautical cant and humbug."

[elliott]

elliott -- That's what I was trying to say -- tay-kul. Your phonetic transcription is better than mine. Don

Thank you kind sir! I thought perhaps I'd been mis-informed. :)

[birder]

It seems the terms are old and unused due to the 100 years since square rigged sailing vessels were operating commonly. It is almost a lost language in some ways. To the modelers (wood kits or scratch builders) my knowledge of terminology is basic only, most learned by necessity "that's just what those things are called"..
Elliott, rigging is time consuming and a bit tedious. I'm not patient enough to admit to enjoying it? I will say that time flies by when I'm working on it. You'll not see a book by me I don't think, unless it has alot of pictures, look for titles by Don and David !
Wyvern I'm glad you're following along as I know you have an interest in these vessels, I have plans to do more someday

[birder]

I have been working on Cleopatter to try to complete the standing rigging by the end of August (1 year goal) and am coming close. After constructing the driver boom and gaff, have made some tackle and falls for the smaller stays, jib, maintopmast, mizzen topmast. Have some work to go, and will post pics shortly no access to camera today, but am making a push to try to have the standing rigging done. Then spars. Now that time has gone by am also not happy with the capstan, and my give that one another go.