B-24 Liberator - pink or what?

[airdave]

I have been planning for some time to update the Liberator D kits.
And I have been doing that for a couple of weeks now.
Time to redraw the file...clean up the artwork...make some modifications.
And there is a need to update my "Lady be good" kit.

A couple of weeks back I received communication from someone who had some issues with my model.
Most specifically two things...the name plate on the right side of the cockpit and the overall colour of the plane.

I have since discovered another photo of LBG that reveals more information about the painted name on the aircraft
...and I see the need to make some changes.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/New%20Model%20%20Releases/b24LBGprofile.jpg

The colour change however, I was not as quick to agree to.
I put a lot of thought and time into the first colour I used on LBG and didn't agree with the "more pink" request.

After some reflection, I decided to go through the process again (of picking a colour for LBG and other North African based Libs).
And I have come up with a slightly different colour this time (than my original choice).
So this raises the question of whether others might agree with me.

Since I have a bunch of colour swtches already created, I decided to add some commentary
and present everything to you in one PDF that you can view
...its a normal optimized PDF at about 700kb in size.
(so its a little too big to atatch here)

Please, take a look at the PDF...feel free to print it out if you want to see how colours print...but let me know what you think.
I'd like to be sure before I release the updated model.

B24 Pink or Sand.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n0i7zknwo46t75z/B24_Pink_or_Sand.pdf)

The question of other Liberators painted in a sand/beige/tan colour is a whole other question.
This topic refers to those aircraft deemed as "pink".

[Swampfox]

Dave,

Have you seen the B-24(D)' I believe it's called the "strawberry Bitch" at the Museum of The USAF, in Dayton, Ohio? Is she the color your looking for?

I don't know myself, just asking.

I recall it having a distinct reddish cast to it. I have some Picts that I'll see if I can find. I took them with an RGB Calibrated chart so that I could duplicate the color. That was 25 years ago, not sure where they are hiding. I'll let you know.

SFX

[willygoat]

Here's a couple of pic of Strawberry B. One's inside the USAF museum w/ flash, and the other is an older outside pic w/ sunlight. I believe John Dell's version at FG is pretty good.

[airdave]

I would be interested in seeing those photos with the RGB calibration!

I've been to the Museum twice and have many pictures of Strawberry Bitch.
Problem I have with that plane is...
1. The Museum interior lighting is dark and could be casting an odd colour onto that aircraft.
2. Flash and long exposure photography also doesn't do the colour any justice.
3. If the paint is as pink as it looks, I think it has been deliberately tinted that way to accentuate the "pink" legend.

*the two photos I took (attached) show an almost "bubblegum" pink
...and we know this colour is not accurate.

Although I love the idea of restoring these aircraft for flight and display, I rarely agree with the accuracy of
colours and markings on these planes. I prefer historical facts, data and if possible, actual photographic evidence.
In this case, such photographic evidence just doesn't exist.
I think the wreckage of LBG might be the closest thing to evidence.
And its not bubblegum pink!

[YankeeBoy]

Dave, you could pink any color on your sample and someone will disagree with you. The actual color of a given aircraft would be dependent on what day in the life of the aircraft was being depicted. A week earlier or a week later and the color would have changed. My personal chioce for a well-faded aircraft would be RGB 215-166-147 or RGB 228-179-160.

The 98th Bomb Group had an application of USAAC Spec. 14109 Sand 26 (water-based) applied over the Olive Drab, retaining the Neutral Grey undersurfaces. the 35 B-24Ds of this group arrived at Ramat David, Palestine during the last two weeks of July, 1942 and went into action on the 1st of August.

Color Bulletins No.41 Amend. 1 added Sand 49 for use in North Africa and is slightly darker and more brown than Sand 26.

Specification No. 3-1 of April, 1942 replaced Sand 49 with Sand 306 (later replaced by Sand 616 in September, 1943.)

Again, unless one knows the color in which the aircraft was delivered and the locale and length of service it is merely silly to declare that one color is the "correct" one. You are already going "above and beyond' with your attempts at accuracy - so don't get too wrapped up in an unsolvable puzzle.

[MrB17]

Hi Dave, looked at your pdf and came up with a theory. The photo on the right of one of the vertical stabilizers seems to tell the story. The "pink" that is left on the part is very close to the new color model you have created. Note that under the "pink" is olive drab and that the serial number is still noticeably yellow. While the rest of the aircraft is predominantly more sand color.

Theory. This and many other B-24's were delivered in olive drab and over sprayed with Desert "pink". In the higher altitudes the uv would burned off the red pigments very quickly. There are more than a few color photo's of what is left of her in Libya. Wright Patterson AFB museum has one of the engines and cowling from her displayed beside "Strawberry Bitch". It is very clear to see the olive paint, as very little of the "pink" is left. Olive drab itself, depending on the manufacturer and batch often faded to a light sand color in a little over 1 year. I believe the parts of the "lady" that look sandier are the remains of the olive underneath. There are a lot of parts that did not receive direct sunlight and look very "pink" indeed and are more indicative of the original "pink". I think the color you have come up with is very close and quite satisfactory for the way she would have looked pre crash. If someone wanted to do a crash diorama of the way she looked when found, that would be an entirely different and multi colored paint scheme.

Here is a review I did of a new B-17 model that illustrates my take on WWII aircraft colors: AeroScale :: Built Review: B-17G Flying Fortress by Jeff Dick (http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=6041)

In one of my previous jobs, I painted 1/1 aircraft for a living, specializing in warbirds. Anyone trying to achieve an exact match in model paint to an FS number is building an aircraft that has not yet left the factory, at best.

I admire your work and with a new printer just delivered will be buying some of your wares.

Hope this helps
Jeff :)

[Vermin_King]

I have to agree with YB. There are some questions that will not be answered. Now if you could go into the museum and chip off some of the new paint so you could see the old paint, you might get close to the 'correct' answer, but they would never allow that.

I wonder if the museum has any pics from before the restoration

[Dlazarus6660]

Here is a couple I got from an old Air International magazine.

[John Dell]

YankeeBoy sums it up well. There is a LOT of leeway in how these colors could appear. There are many things to consider such as what company manufactured the paint, the weather conditions when it was applied, how long it was on and the environment the aircraft is in. And as YankeeBoy said, “there will always be someone who disagrees with you. I look forward to seeing how they turn out.

[airdave]

Dave, you could pink any color on your sample and someone will disagree with you.haha so true!

....
yes...great...excellent stuff!!

although I do not want to discourage any further comments or opinions, I have to agree
with what has been said so far. Basically what I was trying to say and what I have been
thinking. Thanks for basically agreeing with me!

I did not know about the overpainted Olive Drab issue...excellent information!

I feel like I put a lot of thought into making a paint colour decision and then along comes another person,
with a justified intelligent opinion and asks me to make the paint colour "more pink"
(based on unsupported information and photos of Strawberry bitch! lol)

Its hard to say no

...but its just as hard to agree
and change the colour based on a lack of information.

I appreciate the input.

[Don Boose]

Don't want to drag out the discussion, but wanted to say that I very much enjoyed the well-informed and intelligent discourse. I appreciate the length that you go to for as much accuracy as is reasonable to expect, Dave, and I like to hear the kind of details that YB provided. You had some of the really good (and level-headed) researchers and model builders respond to your question.

Don

[airdave]

Don, thats the point...as far as I see it..."the length that you go to for as much accuracy as is reasonable to expect"

Theres only so much I can do
and only so much I am willing to do sometimes.
Just not everything can be done in a paper model.

But sometimes I come across areas that are fairly easy to modify,
even those that might not have a great impact on the whole model,
and for the sake of a little research and a little effort, I can try to be
as accurate as possible (or as aesthetically pleasing as possible, in some cases).

In this case, I modified the model template to make it easier to work on.
This is one reason I am "redrawing" older models that had a lot more raster elements.
And this means I can now swap out skin base colours a lot easier (on an entire model).
So, that means I can spend a little more time deciding on a skin colour and
try various colours if necessary.
And choosing colours is not a "set in stone" action.

And, the research is almost always entertaining and educating!

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/B24%20Liberator/LIBLAYERDETAIL.jpg

[Wad Cutter]

If your taking a photo outside in the Sun then the lighting of your subject will be effected. If you have to use the light inside a building then you might need a filter to correct. Just my 2 cents worth. wc

[airdave]

If your taking a photo outside in the Sun then the lighting of your subject will be effected. If you have to use the light inside a building then you might need a filter to correct. Just my 2 cents worth. wc

AGREED!

lets face it, natural light is always going to give you a bettershot at real colours.

[cbg]

@ dave,
for what it's worth, I've always seen/read the color you are trying to perfect as 'desert pink'.

so. . .the pinker, the better would seem to rule your color search.

remember the movie, 'operation: petticoat'? red lead and white lead do make pink, but hollywood aside, painting in the field was not uncommon.

cbg

[airdave]

yeah, but my argument has always been that the "pink" is more of a salmon/orange
...faded by the sun it gets pinker and then beiger
...and not a "strawberry" pink as many seem to assume.

when you look at "desert sand" aka "desert pink" its definitely a strong orange colour.

lol ...tiring isn't it?

Based on what has been discussed so far, and the great input here,
I think I am even happier with the colour choice I have made (refer to the PDF)
and I think I am going to finish up the LBG model with what I got.

...and get back to that damn Centurion! LOL

[John Dell]

I was finally able to look at your PDF, for some reason it would not open yesterday. It looks like you had already considered most of the points I brought up. I can recommend a couple of excellent reference books. Perhaps you already have them.

This first one is a bit expensive but definitely worth having.

http://www.amazon.com/USAAF-Aircraft-Markings-Camouflage-1941-1947/dp/0764302469/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374666715&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=u.s.+aircraft+markings+and+camouflage (http://www.amazon.com/USAAF-Aircraft-Markings-Camouflage-1941-1947/dp/0764302469/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374666715&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=u.s.+aircraft+markings+and+camouflage)

This next book is making me seriously consider doing some addendums for some of my B-24s. I really wish I had a copy when I was working on them. Though it only covers nose turreted Liberators you might find much of the information useful. The author is planning to write a similar volume on the early greenhouse nose B-24s. I’m anxious to get my hands on this when it comes out. I have found that B-24 noses can be like finger prints.

http://www.amazon.com/CONSOLIDATED-MESS-Illustrated-Nose-turreted-Production/dp/8361421165/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374667040&sr=1-1&keywords=Consolidated+Mess (http://www.amazon.com/CONSOLIDATED-MESS-Illustrated-Nose-turreted-Production/dp/8361421165/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374667040&sr=1-1&keywords=Consolidated+Mess)

And I imagine you are familiar with this excellent website.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/ (http://www.b24bestweb.com/)

I wish there was a comparable site for the B-17.

At some point I want to re-do the B-24Ds I did years ago for Fiddlers Green. Since doing them I have learned that “The Strawberry Bitch” should have a ball turret. When she arrived at the Air Force Museum the turret was removed and installed into the B-17G. There are apparently plans to re-install it. The paint scheme “The Strawberry Bitch” now wears does have some inaccuracies. There are several wartime photos that show the nose art as being much more refined and the style of the number “24” on the nose varies. One photo I’ve seen shows no number “24” at all. When I was originally working on my model of “The Strawberry Bitch” I debated with myself if I should try to match the markings from wartime photos or match as she now appears in the museum. I finally decided to do the museum version as that is the paint scheme she has carried the longest and is the most well-known. When I re-do it I plan to offer both variations.

As I said, I look forward to seeing how your re-vamped B-24s turn out.

[MrB17]

I agree with John, the USAAF Colors and Markings book is worth its weight in gold, if you model any USAAF aircraft. It discusses paint, geometry of the insignia and lettering and has numerous color photo's illustrating unusual markings and colors. A lot of stuff I never knew!

I also wish there were an ultimate B-17 Website. Maybe when I retire I'll do it myself.

One B-24 I would love to see in paper is "The Blue Streak"

looking forward to the updated "Lady be Good".

Jeff :)

[airdave]

Well, I have a question in regards to "Blue Streak".

After participating in Operation Tidal Wave (the Ploiesti raids), Blue Streak
was earmarked for promotional tour back in the US (similar to the
return of "The Squaw" to the US for the national War Bonds Tour.)

She was then decorated with a lot of artwork, same as The Squaw, depicting
mission details, maps of the Mediterranean, and other information that would
be of interest to viewers back in the States.

I thought about creating Blue Streak as she was with the Liberandos,
how she looked up to Operation Tidal Wave...without all the extra 'stuff'.
But then I realized I put out "The Squaw" as she looked for War Bond Tour duty,
with all the extras paintwork in place.

Basically "Blue Streak" looked like Teggie Ann (except shes Olive, not sand coloured)
...up to and during the Ploiesti missions.

And for her remaining mission(s) and then on tour back in the States, she was painted up more like The Squaw.

Which would you prefer?
One...or the other...or both?

[chaparral2d]

The color started out as a shade of sand. Exposure to the sun caused it to turn into what was referred to as desert pink. The Strawberry Bitch has the right color.

Dave

[MrB17]

Well there's a long story regarding "Blue Streak". She started out as "Florene Ju Ju" (port nose) and was then transferred to the 376th. where she was renamed "Teggie Ann" The area on the nose that had the old name and #10 was oversprayed with fresh OD. The name "Teggie Ann" was used on 4 different B-24's One "pink" like your model and the rest OD. The name was painted just above the demarcation line/ lower on the nose, fore and aft of the nose wheel following the slight curve of the demarcation line. When it was renamed "The Blue Streak", was painted over the darker area where "Florene Ju Ju" was oversprayed. "Teggie Ann" was over painted with a better matching color and this area is hardly noticeable. "Teggie Ann" was then added under the pilot's window in smaller letters. As for War bond tour era, she looked very ragged. there were areas replaced with bare metal and all 4 cowlings and nacelles were bare metal as well, all 4 propellers were polished aluminum. There was a lot of paint chipped off of the wings and tail. The bomb bay doors were heavily dimpled from dirt lumps and rocks and missing a lot of paint.

So I would settle for a just renamed "The Blue Streak" with the small "Teggie Ann" under the pilot's window. I believe the map and score tally were added for the bond tour, as with "The Squaw". Additionally there were over painted panels on the aft fuselage with more facts and figures. As to what these colors would be is pure speculation. Maybe two nose sections could be done with either name, everything else looked the same, even the white number 71 on the nose. If you like I could do up the graphics in Illustrator?


The B-24 was the crate the B-17 came in. Hahaha ;)

Regards,
Jeff :)

[Doubting Thomas]

Hi all,

Airdave, there's a special edition Air-Combat article from 1983-84 that has an article
about the LBG. I didn't know if that was in your reference collection. I re-read the
article and found out that the ill fated crash of the LGB was on her first mission. The
article also mentions that she might have encountered enemy fire because of 20mm
flak hole. Did you come across any new information?

Jeff

[airdave]

First mission? not sure I ever read that...but not sure I didn't either.
It would be a sad fact, but doesn't make the loss any more terrible.
I think the worst part is knowing that the majority of the crew survived the crash (parachuting out)
and died waiting for a rescue that never came.

I know the aircraft turned around for some reason...I thought it was just mission scrubbed
...a bad weather, bad visibility issue...which is the reason they lost their bearings and overshot the base.
But then again, I am no expert on the LBG, having only read what I need to
as pertains to whatever part I am working on.

[nebeltex]

Just adjust your "gamma red" settings for your textures and then layer over...lol! Sweet D versions...

[airdave]

LBG...more info...

no mention of flak damage , but since the plane did fly over enemy territory, its possible that
she may have received some, but it wasn't of any real importance.

The flight was indeed the first 'combat" mission for LBG. The target was to be the Harbour installations at Naples.
The mission was scheduled for late afternoon on April 4th 1943.
The mission didn’t start well as not long after the 13 Liberators grouped together in a defensive box,
they flew straight into a huge sand storm!
9 of the 13 aircraft suffered mechanical failure due to sand entering the air filters on the engines,
with engines gasping for air and running rough 9 of the B24’s made emergency landings back at their base.
“Lady Be Good” and 4 other Liberators carried on towards Naples and their target.So some of the aircraft including the Master and Deputy Navigation aircraft returned to base,
but four aircraft including LBG continued on to target without the navigation assistance.
Only two aircraft bombed (a secondary target), while LBG and the other B-24 dumped their bombs in the sea, before returning to base.

Sand storm and bad weather were indeed a factor, but the question of inexperience has also been raised.
Returning to base proved to be a disaster for LBG.


Later that evening the unmistakable sound of a 4 engine bomber was heard above Soluch Field, flares were lit and a homing signal was sent by radio.
However the Lady Be Good did not alter its course it carried on southwards headed deep into the desert!
The other 3 B24’s made it home to base, Lady Be Good was declared missing in action and the crew declared missing.Now, heres the real awful facts...

The wreckage was discovered, almost intact, 15 years later in the desert,
about 400 miles southwest of Soluch Field Libya.
There were no bodies with the aircraft.

The machine guns on the aircraft still worked, a battery was connected to the radio and it worked!
Water and food was found on the aircraft and the water was still drinkable as was some coffee found in a thermos flask!
It was clear that all of the 9 aircrew bailed out of the Liberator before it crashed into the desert.8 of the 9 crew survived the bailout, with one body found tangled in a fouled parachute.
The survivors did not return to the aircraft wreckage.


The co-pilot “Robert Toner” had kept a diary from when the crew bailed out
it stated that the crew were hopelessly lost and thought they were over the sea!
The aircraft was running out of fuel and the captain gave the order to bail out.The remaining 8 crew walked, with only one canteen of water, north.
5 men were found about 100 miles north of the LBG wreckage, having succumbed to the heat and thirst
and the bodies of the co-pilot and two others were found another 27 miles north.

I am guessing, that the crashed plane might have provided shelter from the elements
...the water and coffeee might have sustained them for some time
...and the working radio might have summoned help.

if only the crew had returned to the wreckage.

[Doubting Thomas]

Considering all the bad luck, the fact the crew was inexperienced,
even if they did make it back to the plane, I'm not so sure that they could
have survived because they didn't have any water with them in the plane,
just a thermos half full of coffee.

Also their airbase didn't search in the opposite compass direction of 330 degrees
heading they sent to LBG. Bigger question is how come the crew didn't see the
flares if someone at the base heard them flying over. Just more mysteries to the legend.

Anyways, we'll remember them through the models. Great job! on all of the versions
Dave. I wouldn't worry too much about the desert pinks, the army/and USAAC called
their summer uniforms "summer dress pinks" too.

I always thought they looked more like tan/taupe/khaki colored to me.

[Burning Beard]

The summer uniforms were TW's (Tropical Worsted) Pinks were the grey pants and shirts.

My father was a USAAC pilot, and we have his Green and TW blouse.

Beard

[airdave]

Water and food was found on the aircraft and the water was still drinkable as was some coffee found in a thermos flask!

The source said they did in fact have some water and rations...as well as that half full flask of coffee.
But I think the bigger factor would have been the working radio to send out a distress call (to anyone).

We'll never really know beyond what the Co-Pilot recorded in his journal.

[airdave]

Well there's a long story regarding "Blue Streak". She started out as "Florene Ju Ju" (port nose) and was then transferred to the 376th. where she was renamed "Teggie Ann" The area on the nose that had the old name and #10 was oversprayed with fresh OD. The name "Teggie Ann" was used on 4 different B-24's One "pink" like your model and the rest OD. The name was painted just above the demarcation line/ lower on the nose, fore and aft of the nose wheel following the slight curve of the demarcation line. When it was renamed "The Blue Streak", was painted over the darker area where "Florene Ju Ju" was oversprayed. "Teggie Ann" was over painted with a better matching color and this area is hardly noticeable. "Teggie Ann" was then added under the pilot's window in smaller letters. As for War bond tour era, she looked very ragged. there were areas replaced with bare metal and all 4 cowlings and nacelles were bare metal as well, all 4 propellers were polished aluminum. There was a lot of paint chipped off of the wings and tail. The bomb bay doors were heavily dimpled from dirt lumps and rocks and missing a lot of paint. :)

wrong wrong wrong and wrong
lol

kidding...sort of...

just wrapping up the Blue Streak kit and as usual, researching the look of a plane
finds lots more info than necessary.
And with the Blue Streak...some very interesting "facts".

As we all know by know, "facts" are never what they seem.
And the truth usually isn't what all the facts lead us to believe.

but these are some of the "facts" as I have found...

In the case of Blue Streak...yes, that was the name, Blue Streak...
the "The" was added when it was redecorated and prepared for combat retirement
...the commonly accepted look of the Blue Streak is what we see in photos of the plane after it had reached stateside.
I'm not sure if it actually toured in support of the War Bonds,
but it is known to have toured in support of a number of factories and manufacturing plants.

But the biggest rumour is that the plane named "The Blue Streak" was in fact an imposter.
Since the real "Blue Streak" was in such disrepair after 110 missions, another B24D was quickly redressed as 41-11613 and made the trip home.
Might explain why she went home with bare aluminum and red painted engine cowlings.

There are some photos that show what looks like a repainted patch underneath the Blue Streak noseart.
This in fact would be clear varnish applied over the nameplate...a common practice by the noseart painters.
Which leaves what sometimes looks like a darker, fresh paint patch as if overpainting an existing artwork.

Anyway, the original aircraft was an Olive Drab plane.
She was in fact an early RAF D model, acquired by the US to be part of the HALPRO unit.
The so-called "blue bellies" were delivered painted Olive Drab and sky blue undersides.
The only US Libs to remain in these colours.

As I said...just wrapping up the Blue Streak kit.
I am adding a "fact" page to the kit, with all this info and more.
I decided to go with a well worn Olive Drab finish and leave off all the extra
Tour artwork. However I am keeping the Liberandos crest and including
the "The" on the Blue Streak name.
I've even added some wear and tear (paint chipping) at a few obvious locations!
Should be getting this ready for release tomorrow.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/B24%20Liberator/B24bluestreakartworksm.jpg

[MrB17]

Great news! Another B-24 in the Hangar. Is the artwork the final look of "The Blue Streak"? Just curious about the RAF fin flashes. Here is a pic, just as you described her. From Texas State Historical site. This is State side and looking pretty shabby with a lot of paint chipping and aluminum panels and the red cowl rings and still has the RAF fin flashes both inside and out on the fins. I am not sure why some B-24's kept them and some over painted them. I believe they were part of the "Operation Torch" markings, so maybe it was bragging rights?
Looking forward to this one too, Dave. One Pink and one Green. Maybe a Polka Dot or two? LOL :)

[airdave]

yeah...I had the same thought.
first I ignored the RAF fin flash...until I read about it originally being an RAF painted plane.
Then I wasn't sure.
And based on the info, the plane in the photographs might not be the original 41-11613 anyway.

But, I think I will bow to the available info and put the fin flashes back on.
Easy enough to do...and the model artwork mockups are just as easily altered.

...
also forgot to let everyone know that MrB17 pointed out to me, that the props
on LBG are reversed...backwards...
and as I said, not the first time that has happened!

Anyway, I have mirrored the artwork for all future models.
(For example, Blue Streak will have the altered props)
I'm not going to pull the LBG model just for that...but I will keep a set of
prop blades at the ready for anyone who asks (by email).
(You can also mirror reverse the props yourself when printing to get the correct part)

...
no I don't want to do that "First Seargent" assembly ship.

[airdave]

updated...
and I think its ready for release.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/B24%20Liberator/B24bluestreakartworkupdated.jpg

[MrB17]

no I don't want to do that "First Seargent" assembly ship.
[/I]
Yeah, I guess you'd see spots before your eyes and that would be without any alcohol or recreational pharmaceuticals! Imagine the first time anyone saw those in WWII, there probably would have been a lot of WT? LOL

Regards,
Jeff :)

[airdave]

I did a couple of assembly ships already.
And there are a couple more I like.
So I may do another one or two...one day.
But I don't want to get carried away with those.

I have a small issue with how some of these early assembly ships actually looked.
Later planes had more carefully executed paint jobs.
Better laid out designs, masked off, cleanly painted.

But in old photos, some of the early assembly ships show very sloppy,
brush and roller painted artwork and graphics.
The planes look quite the mess.

And I would love to (and rather) show them as they were,
but I don't have proper reference material.
(I don't like working from aircraft artist profiles)
So unless I have some good photos of a plane, I won't produce it.

[John Dell]

Dave, you need to get this book…

http://www.amazon.com/Assembly-Mighty-Eighth-Robert-Jackiewicz/dp/8392491416 (http://www.amazon.com/Assembly-Mighty-Eighth-Robert-Jackiewicz/dp/8392491416)

Fortunately I got my copy as a gift. It goes for a decent chunk of change but I can highly recommend it.

It goes for a much better price here…

http://www.aberdeenbookstore.com/books/air-combat-ww2/assembly-ships-of-the-mighty-eighth (http://www.aberdeenbookstore.com/books/air-combat-ww2/assembly-ships-of-the-mighty-eighth)

The book on “Hacks” by the same author is also worth checking out.

[umtutsut]

C'mon Dave...you gotta do the NAMU PB4Y-1! :)

:cool: Les (The Voice of Authority)

[airdave]

I thought this plane was done already?
you asked me about this before, right?
but didn't Dell or someone else take care of this one?

if I am wrong, I will look into it.
I'll have to dig thru my files and see what I collected.
didn't this plane need some modifications though?

[Scott K]

Oops Brain fart and slip of the fingers on the keyboard

Scott K.

[airdave]

I'm not understanding.

Are you telling me I shouldn't do this model
because someone else [secret] is working on it right now?

I hate working on a model, only to have someone else put out the same model
just before I release it! So, I really don't want to do that to someone else.

[airdave]

So, I checked...and I did create a folder for this model some months back
but I really don't have too much researched yet on the NAMU PB4Y-1
And I definitely have not started a model.

But I love finding good photos like that B/W one!
And now you've got me seriously interested in that plane again! lol

I'm busy with some other stuff right now, but I've bumped it up the "to-do" list.
And if someone else is already working on a version of this plane, I invite them
to let me know privately.
Last thing I want to do is steal anyone's spotlight.

[umtutsut]

Mucho thanx, Dave! I'll see what else I can dig up on the aircraft.

As far as another model in work, you may be thinking of when I told you I was going to repaint the Lucky Gordon B-24D. I just don't have the necessary skills for that big a job. So take my $$$$$!!! :)

:cool: Les (The Voice of Authority)

[airdave]

anybody want to test build a Lib for me?

I would like to make sure all the graphics line up
and i would like to see a photo or two of the complete build.
but most importantly, I need some help with the rear Turret enclosure.
This plane has the rear Turret replaced with some sheet metal
...its now a viewing compartment
...and I have created a very simple modification.

Anyway, I was going to build the tail section myself...I just don't have the time to
build a whole plane...but I would also like to see a complete model.
So if you would like to build this for me right away, just let me know.
Seriously, I need this done fairly quickly.
Please do not offer to do this and then let me down.
I know that life gets in the way...so if you aren't sure you can stick to the project
then pass on it.

I'm not worried about landing gear...in fact, I can give you a stand for it.
(Same goes for prop blades...if you want to do the inflight look.)

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/B24%20Liberator/B24balloffireAartwoerk.jpg

[Muttleyy]

I have time on Saturday and Sunday. It should be possible to build in two days.

[airdave]

Hi Muttleyy

I don't think you are going to build this model in two days?
If you started today, you might be done by Sunday? lol

Have you built any other kits like this one?
Have you posted any builds I can see?

Let me see if anyone else can get started a little sooner than Saturday, okay?

[legion]

Damnit Dave, why are you planning a red/white plane...

I never wanted to build a Liberator before, but now, I have to! I do not have the time to testbuild it for you though, so I'll wait for the release.

[Texman]

I have time on Saturday and Sunday. It should be possible to build in two days.

I've built two of these B-24's. Two days just isn't realistic with this type
of kit.

[airdave]

Damnit Dave, why are you planning a red/white plane...

I never wanted to build a Liberator before, but now, I have to! I do not have the time to testbuild it for you though, so I'll wait for the release.


haha..sorry

To be honest, if someone can build the fuselage and test fit the tail parts
that would answer my questions.
A complete build isn't really necessary at first.
But I would like to see photos eventually (of a full build)
and a report on any issues I may have missed.

Muttleyy...as Texman says, this model cannot be built in two days
and judging by your posts here, I wonder if you have the experience to
give me a proper test build report.
Keep working and learning, and eventually you will be test building for many!

[legion]

Well, I could atleast do that, Dave. I can start tomorrow, if needed.

[airdave]

legion...email me if you would like to tackle it for me
and I'll send you the file right away.

got my email? cutandfold(dot)info AT rogers(dot)com

[legion]

Message send from a certain Spiketail/Michael/legion.

What kind of paper weight should I use for the model?

[airdave]

65lb is what I use

can you receive a 10mb email?
I hope so...I sent the file.

[legion]

I use Gmail, if that can't handle it, no other email provider can! 65lb, that is close to 160gr, going to use that then!

[airdave]

for more on a NAMU PB4Y, converse here (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/dave-winfields-projects/22279-namu-pb4y-1-a.html) please

I have questions!

[airdave]

FYI
I modified my Mustang Pedestal Stand to fit the B-24 model.
For those of you who hate building landing gear (lol).

Enlarged it, and altered the pedestal to match the Liberator fuselage.
You can download it free along with the other stands at my website
and at Paper Model Shop Home (http://www.papermodelshop.com) (in the Extras section)

Warning...the Lib is a much bigger model, even at 1/50 scale!
And so the stand will require some bracing and strengthening underneath
with some heavier card. I leave it up to the builder to sort out the best
display options using this stand...but at least it gives you something to
start with!

[airdave]

well, I've been sitting on this kit for (how many?) weeks now...
and as usual, I should have just test built the parts myself.
One of these days, I will learn.

so, I printed up the latest version of the "enclosed tail" parts and gave them
a test fit...and with a couple more tweaks, I think I have a working design.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/B24%20Liberator/balloffiretaildetail2.jpg

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/B24%20Liberator/balloffiretaildetail.jpg


I also noticed a funny thing about one of the rear formers.
Seems the last few kits have a slightly different Former H.
(Thats the former that sits directly underneath the horiz. Tail wing)

It is taller than it should be.
Not the wrong shape...just a little too tall.
You see, the top of the former is cut off to allow clearance for the Tail wing.
Darwin showed, in his "Grumpy" build thread, that the following former (I)
also need to have its top lopped off for clearance.
(On his Grumpy build, Former H was correctly sized)

http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/attachments/aviation/165519d1367978655t-grumpy-12.jpg (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/attachments/aviation/165519d1367978655-grumpy-12.jpg)

But for some reason, I have a second Former H floating around...and in a couple
of kits...that is too tall.
So...its a simple matter of trimming down the Former to meet the wing cutout.
Its pretty obvious I think, so I won't changing all the models in stock.
But its something I am alerted to and will try to make sure all subsequent B24s
have the shorter Former H.

Nothing else to see here...move along.

...............
so, give me an hour ...or a day or two
...and the B-24 Assembly Ship "Ball of Fire" will be ready and in the shop!

[rickstef]

Dave, you asked me the same thing about Former H in my Liberator build

I was thinking it was to lock the internal frame from the tail into the fuselage, but I never saw anything more on that

Rick

[airdave]

yeah, obviously I noticed something, changed something, messed something up
...and then forgot all about it.

thats the problem with having too many projects on the go all the time.

...and getting old.