A massively overconfident project [Archive]

Lex

03-17-2009, 06:05 PM

After taking the Comet and a 6-months rest (mainly learning other things), I've fixed my evil eyes on another subject. So I'm posting like last time to keep me reminded about the design so I don't slack off :D

It's a ship
It's a battleship
It's also an aircrarft carrier at the same time
Enough cues? :rolleyes:

Correct, it's the Ise-class battleship, who has been known for their unusual experience and exceptional luck in WWII.

AFAIK the Ise class is the only class in the 12-high Japanese navy battlefleet which European publishers didn't publish any kit on. All I have seen was a Japanese design. (so I need to hurry before any commercial publishers get their hands on this :D)

===========Skip if not bored==========
History-wise, the Ise class (Ise and Hyuga) were completed just after WWI, and was lying dormant for most of their career. Which means that by WWII they were hopelessly outdated. The ships participated in Pearl Harbor raid, and all was well until the disasterous Midway, when the high command decided they were suddenly lacking aircraft carriers. A simple solution was found to remove the rear turrets from the ship and replace with a huge flight deck. (The Fuso class were to follow suit, but didn't live to that day...) Thus the twins were out of action until the conversion completed in 1944, just in time to catch the (once again, disasterous) Leyte Gulf (Japanese achievements in this battle includes having Battleship Musashi becoming the largest submarine on Earth, Fuso and Yamashiro pounding to ruins with less that a dozen survivors, and all 4 Takao class heavycruisers sunk or beyond repair, to name a few.) The two aircraft carrying battleships fought fiercely to protect Japan's carrier decoy force. Surprisingly, all four carriers that day went on the underwater tour, but Ise and Hyuga came back in one piece. Then in early 1945 the twins set off to Singapore to transport war supplies to homeland, despite being a moving bomb with highly flammable fuel loaded on board, luck had it once again and the ships evaded over 20 submarine persuits and one massive air assault. In the end, Hyuga was sunk at moorings during air assault on 24 May that year, and Ise followed suit 4 days later.
===========Skip if not bored==========

Model wise, the model is going to be a free 1/200 full hull vector design. The sheer scale means the design might last beyond one year, but hopefully it's worth the time. Screenshots will follow shortly :o

Darwin

03-17-2009, 06:22 PM

Go, Lex. Go, Lex. Can't wait to see this one....it will fill a definte hole in the model lineup.

Golden Bear

03-17-2009, 06:53 PM

I totally agree with you. Ise and Hyuga have always fascinated me and I've wondered why they haven't drawn attention for models. Please post lots o' pictures!

Where have you found your plans and documentation?

Carl

Barry

03-17-2009, 07:38 PM

Look forward to watching this one.

John Bowden

03-17-2009, 08:14 PM

Very Cool............ Lex if you can use my IJN carrier decks or if you think I can help just give a shout.

This should be very interesting and enjoyable to watch......... :)

john

redhorse

03-17-2009, 08:20 PM

Thanks very much for taking this on, Lex. This is a huge hole in papermodeling and I'm positive you will fill it well. Ise!!!! 1:200th!!!

Don't have enough words here, but you made my day!

Alcides

03-17-2009, 08:36 PM

Go Lex ! Go Lex !

mabrown

03-17-2009, 10:27 PM

Please post plenty of design & build photos Lex. Looking forward to this.

Yu Gyokubun

03-18-2009, 01:29 AM

I wanted to build Ise so badly that learning you have fixed your evil eyes on that is really a stunning news!!!
I can't wait to see it too:)

APA-168

03-18-2009, 07:50 AM

Excellent, can't wait to have it, but knowing you it will be worth waiting for! This is my favorite class of Japanese battleship, along with Fuso/Yamashiro.

treadhead1952

03-18-2009, 12:50 PM

Yeah, Lex, looks like you have struck a chord here with a lot of us sea rats. Looking forward to watching this bad boy come together especially in 1/200 scale. Having built Hasegawas' older styrene kit in braille scale throwing a bunch of PE and home brewing corrections to the old kit, I can appreciate the complexity of such an endeavor.

Lex

03-18-2009, 07:24 PM

Should've done this earlier if I'd known so many people has interest!:rolleyes:

I am never good at looking for references, can't be helped with that. (therefore some details might and would be a little off from "reality"...) For reference I only have BS Profile Morskie's (aka designer's gospel) booklet with me, and also I can check on the forbiddingly insane Halinski Fuso kit for small details -- I know Hal itself doesn't do a good job on historical accuracy... But I'm even worse!:p

I have designed one full hull before, and I say the hull is one of the hardest pieces on a ship to design. BS's cross-section diagram wasn't very detailed, so I had to build a compound surface from the information I have, and take detailed sections from that, then, painstakingly, adjust every control point by hand...... After a night's struggle I finally had everything in check, --but still lacking the torpedo bulge and a bit detail on the stern. More on the subject later.

PS for those who can't wait for a kit of the Ise... (or Yamato, or Nagato, or Mikasa)
papercraft etsutan (http://www.geocities.jp/papercraft_etsutan/index.html)

mabrown

03-18-2009, 07:37 PM

Lovely hull shape Lex.

I think I have a similar issue with my hull for the modified Leander that you have with your Ise. There aren't enough cross sections on my plan so I've let the software do a best fit curvature. From that I intend to position my own frames. Did you create your cross-sections by adding new curves at the points you wanted them, hand adjusting to fit what had been lofted? I'm thinking that I might be able to slice the original hull somehow, perhaps using a boolean or something so as to avoid hand tweaking the curves.

Design of the torpedo bulge should be interesting to see. I tried that once on a polygon model. I didn't do a very good job of it.

Don Boose

03-19-2009, 06:36 AM

Very good! Another excellent addition to the growing fleet of Japanese warships executed in paper. You have a very diverse range of design talents and interests, Lex! I wish you the best with this design.

Don

Lex

03-24-2009, 09:17 PM

It's been a week since the last update, and as some might have guessed, I got stuck on the bulge... The BS reference didn't draw it in at all:eek:, but from all other sources it's there for sure. So I have to refer to Halinski Fuso's bulkheads for details. --The hull of that kit in fact has its own inaccuracies so I couldn't rely solely on that. Nevertheless after days of minor adjustments the hull is complete now, minus the screws. Phew... What a massive ship she is :o

Also the reference picture was truely large, and I had to turn my video card to max power to get anything moving in Rhino at all. Glad I bought my laptop last year concentrating on best graphics performance, --it was good foresight!

mabrown

03-25-2009, 12:02 AM

The hull looks great. I can't wait to see the structure rise from the deck on this.

Barry

03-25-2009, 07:12 AM

Nice job Lex

treadhead1952

03-25-2009, 02:43 PM

Excellent work on the hull and she is a big old beastie, even in 1/700 scale, she dwarfs most of the other ships in my collection. The old Morskie Monograf is pretty fair on the deck details and such so it will come in much handier there. I had more than my share of fun when it came time to figure out how to put the stack, complex tower structures, various platform levels and other details just in that area alone. When you look at the bridge structure and after deck areas they are a whole 'nother set of areas that can get extremely complex.

Once you get it all sorted out, it will be an amazing piece of work with vast amounts of eye candy to check out from stem to stern. Looking forward to your progress updates.

member_3

03-25-2009, 03:01 PM

Looking mighty fine. I am in awe of those of you who do that 3D magic stuff!

Lex

05-03-2009, 04:44 AM

Sorry for the wait, didn't get quite much done for now. Waterline hull turned out to be much harder than I thought (as always...) Hopefully building the model won't be as hard as it was to design:D

Oh and there probably won't be any more updates till mid June as I'm busy writing my degree thesis:o

Don Boose

05-03-2009, 09:47 AM

That's an impressive-looking shot, Lex!

It will be well worth waiting for the next reports to appear.

We'll all be thinking good thoughts for you as you work through the final stages of that thesis!

Don

P.S.: In the images of the Ise there are many light anti-aircraft gun mountings on the rear deck. I presume that there was no intention of conducting flight recovery operations on that deck -- or were the guns of the disappearing mount type, as were installed on the aircraft carrier Hōshō, that could be hydraulically lowered into tubes?

redhorse

05-03-2009, 10:11 AM

P.S.: In the images of the Ise there are many light anti-aircraft gun mountings on the rear deck. I presume that there was no intention of conducting flight recovery operations on that deck -- or were the guns of the disappearing mount type, as were installed on the aircraft carrier Hōshō, that could be hydraulically lowered into tubes?

That's interesting to know. The Zuikaku model also has AA guns all over the flight deck.

Good luck with your thesis, Lex. I'll be paitiently waiting for your next update!

Lex

05-03-2009, 10:17 AM

Thanks! On the flight deck though, the design was a last-ditch attempt and there was no intention of recovering aircraft with that, they probably need to land on a nearby airfield or another proper carrier. Though if the plane had floats like the Seiran, there shouldn't be a problem with that. Thanks for the interesting info on Hosho

Yu Gyokubun

05-03-2009, 10:45 AM

Me too waiting for your next update paitieeeeeeeeeeently, Lex:)

cuthbert

05-03-2009, 02:38 PM

Hi Lex
It must be difficult designing the hull with all the complex curves. Just curious, which CAD program are you using?

Barry

05-03-2009, 03:16 PM

going well......good luck in the exams

JohnMGD

06-01-2009, 02:57 AM

Hi Lex,

Etsutan Wakayama, did already an ISE Battleship/Carrier design in scale 1:400, maybe this is interesting for you, see:?? (http://www.geocities.jp/papercraft_etsutan/ise000.html) (Just click on the question marks)
The NAGATO 1931 model I'm building right now is also a Wakayame model enlarged to scale 1:250. I use the model as a template, a large part is scratch build and more detailed. (see attachments) For the grey I use a grey cardboard that I buy in an artstore, so no edge coloring with paint or color pencil!!
If interested you can contact me, and thanks for you response on ASHIGARA.

John.

Lex

06-10-2009, 05:22 PM

Hi John, thanks for the info and I like your Nagato build a lot. The model on that site wasn't terribly detailed, which was the reason I'm undertaking this design in the first place.

I had my thesis binded and handed in today, so updates might follow shortly.

outersketcher

06-10-2009, 05:54 PM

Yep, I'll be following this design thread too. Thanks for taking it on.

David

Golden Bear

06-10-2009, 06:25 PM

Lex, I love your work. Interesting to me that the hull shape is so square. Hmm.

But John, am I allowed to say Holy Craaaaaa@@@! here? My goodness but that is one of the sharpest models I have seen in a long time. Like, WoW, man.

Carl

57townsman

06-23-2009, 04:26 PM

Wow Lex,

That's some project you're taking on. I'll be checking in often to see how she's coming along! Good luck with your thesis :)

SteveK

GreMir

08-22-2009, 06:59 PM

One of those days I will have to run a petition to outlaw deceptive thread titles :D
If not for the mention of Ise in another thread I would never have stumbled here to see this most unique ship being created.
Great work and I will be watching it closely now.

Amazyah

08-22-2009, 08:08 PM

Oh my!
You have my full attention! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/aiw/wink.gif
I can't wait and I've got me eyes on this thread from now on! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/aiw/good.gif
I'll be watching even when you think no-one else is!
Good to see you back in the swing of things, Lex! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/aiw/victory.gif

Russell

Lex

08-23-2009, 12:12 PM

Lol thanks for all the support. Though summer was busier than I had expected and a vacation placement ate up my time. Still, from Mid-September I might have one month off to do some serious design work... So please stay tuned :D

redhorse

08-23-2009, 02:41 PM

We will stay tuned!

Lex

11-30-2009, 08:04 PM

Life is tough... I failed to get anything done recently. [gets shot in the head by the angry crowd] Over pretty much since the last post, I find myself struggling to get enough sleep among endless question sheets (never thought I'll be having more lectures), not to mention going anywhere near this project. It's not going to finish anytime soon......... (>.<)

Back to topic though. I did a major, but rather invisible overhaul on the hull which essentially meant that every curve was retouched from top down, to better fit the drawings. Then I managed to keep myself going and added a little more waterline, but got stuck on the stern which had been extensively modified in the 1942-44 reconstruction.

I had noticed Halinski's Fuso had a deck slightly slanted outboard, but I chould not see this feature documented. Surely those designers, ahem, no, gods, would not make something up, so I wonder if anyone can give an idea of how the decks should've been? Before I finish dealing with the hull I'd like to make absolutely sure of this subject...

That's all for now, I'll lock the time capsule again and in year 2136 maybe I'll come back and finish the design:o

redhorse

11-30-2009, 10:27 PM

Nah, it was only a few months, I bet you unlock the time capsule in another six or so max. Good to see an update though and good luck with the lectures... and Ise.

B-Manic

12-05-2009, 12:26 PM

The decks usually have a camber from the fore-to-aft centre line to the strake. This permits water to run off the deck. There is often a spurn-water (or spurn rail) welded to the strake to channel the water to an overboard discharge. This keeps the water from staining the entire ships side. Depending on the size of the ship and the scale of the model the camber maybe too insignificant to include. If it is included then the base of all the deck fittings/structures have to accommodate the camber's slope (rise over run). It is very frustrating trying to glue a flat based part to a cambered deck (this occurs far to often in paper ship models).

Don Boose

12-05-2009, 01:22 PM

Excellent information, as always, Douglas. Hope all the ship designers are watching.

Lex -- I'll be happy to tune in whenever you return to Ise.

Don

Lex

12-07-2009, 05:11 PM

A thousand thanks to Doug! This is a feature I noticed on Halinski kits and no other publisher -- HMV, GPM all had flat decks on their most detailed ships. But if real ships have this feature then I guess on a 1:200 battleship it's within reason to include it, erm perhaps... [I fear going overboard would stall this project for good

(And lack of naval engineering knowledge sucks... Thanks again to BManic)

Scott K

12-07-2009, 05:21 PM

I had just finished adding deck camber to my 1/350 Edmund Fitzgerald when I lost the files in a disk crash (the very next day!:mad:) Possibly too small a scale for it, but I wanted to have it anyway. I started on a 1/250 version once I recovered an older file, but I haven't added the camber yet. I'll be watching yours with interest, if you decide to attempt it.

Scott K.

redhorse

12-07-2009, 05:39 PM

The Answer Isuzu I built does have cambered decks in 1/200. It is actually noticable at that scale. I'm not sure about A/C carriers, are the flight decks cambered? I was on USS Lexington last year and didn't notice it, but I was wasn't really looking for it either. I wonder if Ise's rear deck was cambered...

I would imagine adding a camber would increase the work on designing quite a bit though.

Lex

12-09-2009, 11:51 AM

I believe the flight deck was not cambered, but have no absolute reference to check. I think I will at least attempt at cambering the main decks, and see what I come up with...

Lex

04-08-2010, 03:02 PM

Okay a tiny update (or shall I say, "predate") on progress. I might have to stick with the less important things like AA guns and aircraft for now, as I just got myself some more reference material from Japan, and it seems that Profile Morskie's research on the hull shape had been somewhat off, the structure with rear mast is in a different position (they were off by miles) to what the Japanese research say. I am giving more trust to the Japanese publisher which means a complete overhaul on the hull - it's their ship after all so they could afford much more attention to details, and more importantly... their data provides a much more realistic draft distance and deck height (and HAS included the correct torpedo bulges). Also this one does give the appropriate deck camber so that is another problem solved... It also seemed that the amount of reference material simply lying around the internet is not scarce at all, and so it's time for me to get back to reworking: "Back to the drawing board"

I did tell you I was being over-confident! :D

SJPONeill

04-08-2010, 03:23 PM

Over-confident is where you go charging in armed mainly with hope - the way i read the design thread, you are taking a practical and methodical approach that will pay off in the long term...

Keep chipping away...

Lex

04-17-2010, 06:52 PM

ONeill your words are comforting... But the hard questions remain unsolved. Rather than having a friend scanning pages of the Gakken book to me I'm tempted to order a copy of this reference from @mazon Japan myself. (hopefully without destroying my budget...) I'm starting to think whether it's better to just ignore whatever accuracy there might be and press along, but strangely I'm not feeling like giving up the tiniest bit of accuracy yet. (And that's not like me!:eek:)

On a related note, I have finished redrafting the hull, and comparing it with the first draft was like... oh holy... Picture speaks for itself. According to Morskie the propeller would eat into the hull:rolleyes: I'm more inclined towards the new blue version as it provides a much higher number of sections, complete with internal armour and compartment arrangement at which Morskie failed miserably. Only wish I had more naval knowledge......

The flight deck is also drafted, and for bridge I intend to make use of material from Gakken and Miyuki (http://www2.odn.ne.jp/miyukikai/museum-3dCG3.htm) to move forward. Await release in the next century... perhaps:o Lesson: Never rely on a single piece shource of information alone >_<

Don Boose

04-18-2010, 11:19 AM

Miyuki is a formidable resource, Lex!

This certainly a gigantic project. I wish you well -- for the entirely selfish reason that I love IJN warships and really want to see where you go with this.

Don

JohnMGD

04-21-2010, 02:12 AM

Lex,

Sent you an e-mail a few days back about revisions!!

John.

Lex

04-21-2010, 01:36 PM

Oh... Sorry didn't check, received intact, Thanks

Lex

04-21-2010, 04:52 PM

While the larger parts have stalled, nothing can stop me from dealing with all the standard weaponeries on the ship, this one is the infamous 25mm triple AA that can be found on just about any vessel of IJN. It's enough effort trying to model this in a PC, but thinking about someone actually have to build a dozen of these at a size no more than a fingernail, I flinched... I vote for a Ctrl+V button in real life!:rolleyes:

By the way the grids are 1cm in size...

Barry

04-21-2010, 06:12 PM

Nice drawing Lex I ended up with all 3 breeches welded together

Lex

04-21-2010, 06:29 PM

Oh actually if you had done this before Barry could you share your treatment to this part? Or I would like to know what everyone has in mind about something on this scale

Barry

04-21-2010, 07:03 PM

I am afraid it is very crude at the moment not even having the rotation plate fitted and I am not sure of the footrest treatment probably just an extension to the seat. The only comment is it is buildable. I also took advantage of the fact the magazines are never loaded normally.

Lex

04-21-2010, 08:07 PM

Thanks for the picture on your Agano! Is it just me or there is two types of arrangements for this gun? I had a few photo which showed the three individual guns lying mostly bare, and another few on the replica Yamato which showed them boxed up in which case your box depiction is far more accurate... My version rests on the assumption that a lot of the structures could be made from copper wire, and the smallest paper parts would not be too demanding to build (hopefully)

B-Manic

04-21-2010, 08:35 PM

The Model 96 25mm Hotchkiss AA Gun in single, double and triple mounts replaced the previously used 40mm pompoms in the IJN. There are some really good 3d Cad views here 3D CAD Browser - 3D Model Preview - Type 96 Japanese Triple AA Gun (25 mm) (http://3dcadbrowser.net/preview.aspx?ModelCode=2798) and a single mount here http://3dcadbrowser.net/preview.aspx?ModelCode=28843

Lex

05-01-2010, 04:29 PM

Thanks for the link! I also use this one as a pictorial reference:
Mechanisms of Imperial Japanese Navy Warships in 3-D (http://www.ijn.dreamhost.com/index.html)
...but relying on other's secondary interpretation is sometimes not a safe idea perhaps :D Though what's safe? I didn't use original photos either...... :o

Moving on with the small things...... Both versions of the 25mm AA gun and the 5in dual AA cannons are complete. Details are only tentative and might get cut down when I try building these. Might move on to the aircraft next, but one thing bothers me on the 6 anti-air rocket launchers added towards late 1944 - I couldn't find any reliable pictures or diagrams on them (except BS)...

[again 1 grid is 1cm]

Lex

05-02-2010, 07:33 PM

Small guns are all set, so next step is slowly moving on to the aircraft carried on board - D4Y2/3 Judy/Suisei and E16A Paul/Zuiun, might also include the D3A1 Val because there are photo pf it being tested on board, and a "what-if" A6M Zero, if I have enough time to waste...:p

Then it struck me that these planes are going to be more than 6cm in size:oLarger than I had ever imagined (due to my ignorance, truth is I have yet to build anything larger than 1:400...:rolleyes:). The implication is that transparent cockpits might be needed and so... urgh, even more details.........

One more thing I wished to ask, does 300dpi (~0.04mm dots) offer a good resolution for bitmap prints? And does domestic printers handle 600dpi properly so that it makes a visible difference compared to 300dpi?

Barry

05-02-2010, 07:43 PM

Nice graphics Lex

I print at 300 on an HP cheapo printer C4280 which gives pretty good results but 600 is better when I printed Carl's sheets however they have much more detail than mine.

Yu Gyokubun

05-02-2010, 11:15 PM

Thanks gents for reference sites.
Here you will find IJN ship’s CG references at the center of the page http://www2.odn.ne.jp/miyukikai/newpage6.htm (http://www2.odn.ne.jp/miyukikai/newpage6.htm) Here is one of CG links http://www2.odn.ne.jp/miyukikai/museum-3dCG2.htm (http://www2.odn.ne.jp/miyukikai/museum-3dCG2.htm) I hope those could be of any help to you

Lex

05-03-2010, 11:19 AM

Barry:
Thanks, I think I will go with 600dpi, even if that means reduced productivity due to my computer's apparent inability to work with images that big :o

Yu: Thanks for the links, those would come in very handy when constructing the bridge. Actually I am thinking of buying a copy of Miyuki's plan on the ship, but have no idea how...

Yu Gyokubun

05-03-2010, 01:13 PM

Lex, here you'll find price list and how to order ƒŠƒXƒg (http://www2.odn.ne.jp/miyukikai/sub2.htm)

Lex

05-03-2010, 02:11 PM

Oh... thanks! Missed that... :o

Barry

05-03-2010, 03:07 PM

There is a problem the price of an Iinternational Money Order is greater than the cost of the plan if you are shipping from London.

Lex

05-04-2010, 04:25 AM

I did notice that... however there doesn't seem to be more options. It's not like I have an acquaintance living in Japan or anything... :o

JohnMGD

07-28-2011, 09:31 AM

Lex,

I ordered drawings from Miyukikai and the price of postage was included in the price already ! Just have a good look at their delivery and pricing conditions. By the way, looking forward to your end design !

John.

solarprism

08-02-2011, 08:09 AM

Pardon me if i am being rude. Can you give everybody who love ISE class some more info about your design? It had been over a year from your last post.

Lex

08-02-2011, 05:10 PM

Thanks for the continued interest and I apologize for the complete lack of progress, I had wished to restart this in April but things did not go according to plan...

The Gakken book is in and now Miyukikai had been the single piece of reference that was holding back this design, so I desperately wanted it sorted. Designing without a reliable reference material was a nightmare I experienced too many times before so I'm careful not to waste time doing useless work on such. I asked for help from a friend in China about ordering but he had been too busy.

Meanwhile this had been extremely useful for me, and... well that person is actually building a paper model!
Al di l ?? ? ?? - Yahoo!??? (http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/imperfect2storm/folder/997092.html)

Lex,

I ordered drawings from Miyukikai and the price of postage was included in the price already ! Just have a good look at their delivery and pricing conditions. By the way, looking forward to your end design !

John.
To John:

Actually could you tell me about how you ordered? As I sent enquiry emails to all their email accounts I could find, and never heard a reply back, maybe you could help me in that somehow...

JohnMGD

08-03-2011, 09:03 AM

Lex,

I just sent him an envelop with money in it for my YUBARI drawings and at the same time I had sent him an e-mail that the money was sent too him, exactly decribing for what drawing (drawing number etc.)!
I think he only likes that real business is done :) I did the same with my TAKAO drawings.
Maybe he thinks it's a waste of time relaying to all the e-mails.
By the way nice site link you gave us about building ISE !!

John.

Lex

08-03-2011, 09:42 AM