Licencing

[joshuajaeseo]

I'm thinking about doing some recolors on an airliner on ecardmodels. I have a question about licencing though. I looked through Sumato's 767 and 777 threads, and I saw that he couldn't do some (like KLM) due to licencing problems. How do I avoid such problems? Are there certain airlines I can't do without paying a ton of money? Are bankrupt/old liveries exempt from licencing? If you guys could help me out with this issue, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[mbauer]

Probably a trademark issue. You can not re-sell them. But if you're wanting one for yourself, you might be able to do a one time version.

Best to look up Trademark Laws to be sure though.

Mike

[Richschindler]

Not sure on that one. But look at plastic models. You can buy a model and then buy aftermarket decals for the kit. KLM included.
As stated, if your just doing it for yourself, and not reselling them once it's been recolored, it should come under the same set of rules.
Just my take on it, no, I'm not a lawyer. So?????

[John Bowden]

If you sell something with a companies logo they can sue you and either get a percentage or force you to stop selling......... if you GIVE away something with the logo at least they can not sue to get money since you are giving it away... but they can sue you to make you stop giving it away.

This is one reason some people design or recolor model for free or not for sale.......

Again if it is something that you want for yourself and no one else you can do it....... it is when you start putting out for other to buy is when you can start getting into trouble...... most companies want to make money for themselves not others.:cool:

We are fortunate to have companies like Microsoft, Disney and others that don't care about making money............ YEAH RIGHT!!!:eek:

[joshuajaeseo]

If you sell something with a companies logo they can sue you and either get a percentage or force you to stop selling......... if you GIVE away something with the logo at least they can not sue to get money since you are giving it away... but they can sue you to make you stop giving it away.

This is one reason some people design or recolor model for free or not for sale.......

Again if it is something that you want for yourself and no one else you can do it....... it is when you start putting out for other to buy is when you can start getting into trouble...... most companies want to make money for themselves not others.:cool:

We are fortunate to have companies like Microsoft, Disney and others that don't care about making money............ YEAH RIGHT!!!:eek:

So am I safe if I do a bankrupt livery or an old livery?

[John Bowden]

depends on who's model you are planning on recoloring........ it is best to get the designers permission before starting to save yourself a lot of wasted time and effort IF they don't want anyone to do a recolor.

Paper Replika models are good to do, as Julius allows it, but for a designer that sells their models you do need to ask permission. Some designers do not like others to change their work........... I'm just saying, it's always better to ask before doing and releasing............

But no longer in business liveries are a safer bet than big multinational companies............

AND AGAIN......... IF you are doing a recolor for yourself and WILL NOT let it out to anyone else, you can do whatever you want............. but you may not be able to post pictures of it. Some designers do not want others to change their work even for their own personal use,,,, but IF you don't tell anyone or post pictures of it......... no one can be the wiser.

[joshuajaeseo]

So if I have permission from the designer, I'm fine to do bankrupt/old liveries?

[mbauer]

So if I have permission from the designer, I'm fine to do bankrupt/old liveries?

Depends; Was the company bought out eventually? Or if it is a copyright (meaning something that is published) the copyrights could still be in effect.

Papermodels are copyrighted. Something you can print or publish, like art work.

If you mean the KLM livery, you need to dig deeper.

Pretty sure no-one here can say yes, you're ok. Way to many variables and legalities to hurdle over.

If the current model designers says it is ok to re-paint. Then it is ok to re-paint their model, but be careful if you want to offer it for sale or download.

If the paint job was trademarked, that you want to use, you will need to investigate if anyone still has the trademark ownership. Possibly asking them for permission as well.

Not an attorney, but better to investigate on your own to find out more information, so you can answer your own questions.

trademarks can be bought for many different things, shapes, paint jobs, sayings, etc....

Google trademarks and start reading to find out what you're up against.


Mike

[joshuajaeseo]

I was going to do some US Airways liveries, which was bought out by AA.

Will airlines state on their website that their logo, livery, etc are trademarked?

[whulsey]

Usually somewhere in the fine print. When there is a buy out the new owners usually get everything includes trademarks, etc. And some such as Mercedes are really hardcore about it. When they held Chrysler they were going back and nailing people like the guy doing a die-cast Jeffery Quad since that was a forerunner of Nash which with Hudson formed American Motors and since Chrysler bought AMC they owned the copyright. That was a 1918 Jeffery.

[Loui]

so, that's why i didn't see(yet) any of major publisher like Gpm, Mally, Halinski, etc... designing a liveries model planes.
everyday still learning about this great hobby. Great info here guys. Thanks

[joshuajaeseo]

So would recoloring free templates be the way to go if I wanted to share a lot of liveries?

[airdave]

if you GIVE away something with the logo at least they can not sue to get money since you are giving it away
Sorry to argue with you John (again...honestly, I dont do it on purpose),

you can be sued for money, (its unlikely) but you can be sued for money if you distribute free paper models and infringe on any copyrights.
At the very least you could be forced to cover court and administrative costs of a legal action.

Giving something away for free does not alter the copyright status
or change the fact that you are infringing on any copyright.

Its not just about money...sometimes its about personal property.
By allowing something to happen, you are actually giving permission or support.
And sometimes its just about protecting ones public image.
You might not care if Donald Trump uses your product,
but you may not want to be seen as endorsing his campaign,
so you don't want your logo to appear in his campaign advertising.


So if I have permission from the designer, I'm fine to do bankrupt/old liveries? Art of any kind, including Logos, is protected material.
There are time limits to how long copyrights are in place, but this varies.
Did you know, even Military markings are owned and protected under the same types of laws.

Reproducing the images and artwork of retired or Bankrupt Airline companies does not give you any less restrictions.
There are still rights of ownership in place for names, logos and brands.

It all comes down to who protects their logos and designs, and who doesn't.
Some groups look at the "free advertising" aspect and allow certain things to happen.
Some organizations don't get involved in the marketing of their own brands
and so don't pay much attention to those who infringe on their brand.

Some companies unless otherwise prompted, will only pay attention to major brand infringement.
Like say, if Mattel puts out ten million Bugatti Veyron diecast cars.
Bugatti expects to see a cut of that action.
But Bugatti probably isn't going to care if I airbrush Veyron T-shirts at a Fair one weekend.

But there are companies who come down hard on any and all infringements.
Even the small stuff.
Disney has been known to go after any type of property infringement.
The money is not the issue...its image and franchise protection.

Just be prepared.
And don't try to BS anyone.
As modellers, we get away with a lot...basically because its a hobby
and because its relatively unknown.
But as the number of artists and authors grows within the hobby,
we are going to see more and more plagiurism and intellectual property infringement.

...
Point is...don't assume you have legal rights to anything that you don't already own yourself.
Assume it, or part of it, belongs to someone, and be careful how you use it.
In most cases, if you treat things with respect, you won't get in too much trouble.
Just don't assume you have legal rights to anything in this hobby.


...
There, thats my soapbox speech for today.

[joshuajaeseo]

Thanks for the info Dave, got a lot to think about now... Are things always this complicated in life?

[Loui]

my 1¢ opinion, since you're planning to do a re-color... contact the designer first and consult with ecardmodels staff since you are planning to put your recolor version there. May i asked what type of aircraft you're planning to recolor? 747 cargo, 777...
Godluck.
Best regards, Loui

[thorst]

I suggest, regardless of all copyright issues, that you do the designs for the paper models yourself, if you want to make money with selling such kits.

[joshuajaeseo]

That's gonna be hard....I have no experience in designing.

[joshuajaeseo]

my 1¢ opinion, since you're planning to do a re-color... contact the designer first and consult with ecardmodels staff since you are planning to put your recolor version there. May i asked what type of aircraft you're planning to recolor? 747 cargo, 777...
Godluck.
Best regards, Loui
Maybe the Oddball 787.

[thorst]

That's gonna be hard....I have no experience in designing.

Well, then you need to learn it ;-)

In general, I see it this way: The designer of a model did most of the hard work, and he put it up for free not without a purpose. Someone else making money with his work may not be his intention.

[airdave]

Thorst is completely correct.
But it brings us back to permissions.

In the case of Oddball, he invites recolours.
He isn't personally into the art end of the designing, so i think he appreciates
others doing the recolours.
It just creates more versions of his kits, which creates more revenue from each design.

Its completely up to a designer if he wants to allow repaints.
At ecardmodels, we will get permission from the original designer first before we allow repaints.
And ecardmodels has a payment schedule already in place to make sure the original designer gets a fair share of the repainted models revenue.

Some designers don't cooperate with repaints.
I have no interest in others repainting my models.
Thats my right.
I choose to create all requested liveries myself.

I do agree that there are now way too many repainters.
And many of those are not very good at it.
I wish repainters had more experience with the proper software
and more experience with the design of models.
It would give them a better feel for what they are doing.
There is more to "repaint" than masking out a colour in MSPaint
and slapping a new colour in its place.

Why not try a graphics program?...and learn how to draw and design your own stuff.
Or take the big plunge, and learn 3D model design with something like Sketchup?
Most of you won't do this, because it costs money.
...
There are some free graphics programs that do a lot.
GIMP is free.
You can even try the high end stuff for free.
The new Coreldraw is a free download Trial. (One month I think)
Sketchup is free.

...
And stop stealing bitmap images of logos and markings (off Google)
and slapping them on your models.
If you are going to use a copyrighted logo, at least take the time to recreate it, in proper detail
...do it accurately...redraw it in a graphics program...do it cleanly
...at least show some respect to the company from which you are stealing their logo!...
and size it properly, in scale and dimensions...and place it properly on the model!
Do some research before you start "repainting"!!

[joshuajaeseo]

I think I'll have to just start off with Inkscape for now. Graphics programs? I'd love to be able to those, but I'm struggling enough with Inkscape...not particularly good with software..

[airdave]

Inkscape is a "graphics program".

Inkscape is a good choice...for free vector base software.

Now, learn how to use it...before you use it.
In other words...learn to create with Inkscape.
Learn the software, and then apply what you know to repainting.

(I was already using Corel and photoshop long before I started designing models)

GIMP is another free software, which is a raster based program.
For doing all the image stuff, realistic textures, painting, etc.

Combine the two, and its kind of like using Corel or Photoshop.

...
Inskcape vs GIMP
Inkscape vs GIMP, a Vector and Raster Comparison | GoInkscape! (http://goinkscape.com/inkscape-vs-gimp-a-vector-and-raster-comparison/)
Its a bit onesided...bias to Inkscape...but it explains the basics.

Properly, vector and raster are combined to work together.
CorelDraw/Paint and Photoshop are examples of this.

[joshuajaeseo]

I'll try my best.