Civil Aviation Equipment - Diorama Accessories Kit?

[airdave]

As some of you know, a few years back,
I created and released a kit of WW2 era Airfield accessories.
Things like Ground Vehicles and other Accessories you could use in a Model Diorama.

That led to two more Accessory kits...one for Post WW2 stuff,
and a Modern Era package that also included Carrier items.

More info here:
http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/kit-announcements/7806-airfield-accessories-diorama-parts-1-50-scale-kit-contest.html?highlight=airfield+diorama
http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/kit-announcements/12822-airfield-diorama-accessories-kit-ii-airdave.html?highlight=airfield+diorama
http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/kit-announcements/13843-airfield-diorama-accessories-iii-modern-airdave.html?highlight=airfield+diorama


Anyway, I have been asked (in the past, and just recently) to do a collection of Airliner and Civil Aviation stuff...
and I think its time to do another Accessory Kit.

I think with Civil Airport stuff, the focus is probably mostly on the various vehicles,
like Tugs and Tractors, Baggage trucks and Carts, various Service vehicles, etc

Not being an expert on this type of stuff, I am only just beginning research into what vehicles and accessories I might consider.

So, I have some questions...aimed at those of you who build Airliners and the like...

Please suggest the types of vehicles that you would expect to see, or want to see, in a Civil Aviation or Civil Airport Diorama Accessories Kit.

And not just vehicles, are there other types of accessories you want?

I don't plan on creating a package to suit one specific era.
I was hoping to cover 1950s-70s, as well as more modern stuff (1980s to 2000).
I thought I would stick to the basics and most commonly requested items,
and try to cover more than one era in the same kit.

For example, Mobile Passenger Stairs are still in use today, but not too common.
However, an airport in the 1950s or 1960s would have used plenty of those Stair trucks.
So this is a must-do item.
But why not include a vintage one, and a more modern one?

One of my biggest concerns is the scale of items in the kit.

Even though I put out a lot of 1/33(1/32) models myself, I created my Airfield Kits at 1/50(1/48) scale
to suit a larger contingent of aircraft modellers.
The Diorama models are easily upscaled, or downscaled to suit your needs.

However, its important to consider scale when designing a model, especially if downscaling is the more common option.
Too much detail, or an overly complicated construction, is a problem with a small scale model that is reduced even further.

Since most Airliner kits appear to be in 1/100-1/144 scale, does it make sense to produce accessories in 1/50 scale?
Some airliner kits are even smaller, down to 1/200 scale.
Other Civil Aircraft models are produced at larger scales...like 1/33...since these are much smaller aircraft in real life.

I have found a few larger Airliner kits...at 1/72 scale...but not much bigger than that.
Murph's models may be the only one putting out larger (inconsistently) scaled civil aviation models.
His are 1/39 - 1/61 scale!?

I am leaning towards 1/72 as the primary design scale.
If I go too small, and simplify the designs, they will not scale up well to 1/50
...even worse to 1/33.
But even at 1/72 scale, I will have to be careful not to produce a model that is too difficult to
shrink and build to a smaller scale.
Not everyone is a micro-builder.
So, do I start out at a much smaller scale? 1/100?
Or go for the bigger, more detailed scale at 1/50?
or split the difference at 1/72?

Once again, to those of you building Airliners and Civil Aviation models, what scale would you prefer to have your "accessories"?

If you have suggestions for vehicles or accessories, please give me more than just a single photo from the web.
Link...dont post...other photos that show me more of the item.
And give me some clues to type, model, manufacturer, proper name, date of production and use, etcAnything that heps researching the item a little easier. Thanks

[Vermin_King]

Were you considering any emergency equipment? Or just basic?

[airdave]

Isnt that part of Airport stuff?
Isnt that basic Airport stuff?
I can't see any airport that doesn't have emergency response vehicles.
So, I would consider that basic stuff.

Definitely a Fire Response of some kind, and maybe a Foamer?

[herky]

only on the basis that a lot of airliner models seem to start life as paper-replika aircraft which are generally 1;100 scale i would suggest that.but the you have an issue for folks wanting equipment models for skyline models which are generally 1;72 scale.dont envy you the decision

[airdave]

If we were only talking about 1/72 and 1/100 scale airliner models,
this would probably be a no-brainer.

I'd go ahead and design at 1/72, and downscale printing would be simple to get the 1/100.
1/72 is small enough to rule out a lot of detail and small parts that would be an issue at 1/100.

What caused me the headache was seeing 1/144 papermodels...
and then 1/200 paper models!
I never realized they would go that small in paper.

And then I went looking for 1/50 scale and didn't really find much.
Except for the gigantic monkey wrench that is Fiddlers green and Murph Models
...designing things at no predictable or common scale! LOL

[JohnM]

What caused me the headache was seeing 1/144 papermodels...
and then 1/200 paper models!
I never realized they would go that small in paper.

D'ya mean you didn't notice the hundreds of free 1:300 airliners in Bruno's thread Dave?

http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/aviation/25109-one-model-per-non-working-day.html

[Knife]

Basic airline equipment: Tug, Pushback Vehicle (Electo), Air Start Unit, Belt Loader, Luggage Carts, GPU, Towbar, Chalks, K-Loader, Catering Van, Airstairs. Let me know if you need any photos of these units. And lets not forget the ever popular Jet Bridge.

[Richschindler]

As there is a lot of airliner stuff in 1/72, I think I'd be inclined to design in that scale. We could always scale down and go smaller to 1/100 and so on. Also, there are several, actually more than several, 1/72 civilian smaller single and multi engine engine prop stuff, jets as well, that could use service vehicles in the same scale.

[papermate]

It's nice to see a lot of input coming in. It seems that 1/72 and 1/100 are quite popular.
As a mini/micro builder, I don't mind downscaling to suit my need. Not too much of a problem
for anyone who wants to build it, large or small. So they say, if there's a will, there's a way.

Papermate

[papermate]

And BTW, Bruno's jetliners usually don't come with undercarriage, so the ground equipment don't fit in for good looking display. I always have to scout around for the
proper u/c or anything close to put on the 1/300 (changed to 1/200 always) models.
Anyway, don't take it as an offence to Bruno's wonderful designs.

Papermate

[herky]

And BTW, Bruno's jetliners usually don't come with undercarriage, so the ground equipment don't fit in for good looking display. I always have to scout around for the
proper u/c or anything close to put on the 1/300 (changed to 1/200 always) models.
Anyway, don't take it as an offence to Bruno's wonderful designs.

Papermate

you could get some 1;300 scale bricks,stand the aircraft on them and tell people someone stole the wheels like they do with cars :):):)
just kidding im with rich that 1;72 and 1;100 would suit most modellers

[airdave]

How about some 1/300 scale Jack Stands?

[herky]

How about some 1/300 scale Jack Stands?

thats the lines i was thinking along.
on a serious note i got some british airways and bea/servisair steps awhile back at 1;100 scale.cant remember where from though so cant share link

[murphyaa]

I know I'm pretty inconsistent when it comes to scale, but I do it because I don't know how to determine the scale in Rhino. That's why I set up the scale conversion chart.

If you want reference material for an aircraft tug, we use an old small aircraft tug to push dead buses around at work.

[airdave]

Length divided by Scale = Scale Length

Its pretty simple to work out a rough scale.
You start by looking up the actual measurements of the real aircraft.
Based on the length of the real thing, you reduce it by dividing its dimensions by the scale you want.
Then produce the model with those dimensions.
This is important, because many builders prefer to build in a specific scale.
Or at least matching scale, so their models display properly side by side.

If you don't know the actual dimensions before you start designing, how can you be sure
all your dimensions, wingspan, length, height, etc, are all in the same scale and are consistent?

............
I did an old style Tug in the older Airfield kits.
It could easily be reduced to 1/72, repainted, and included.
I'll just add one or two more recent/modern Tugs to balance things out.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l588/cutandfold/Aviation%20Diorama/G75%20Tug%20in%20hand.jpg

[airdave]

Well, this discussion died quickly?! lol

Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and work on a new Diorama Accessories kit.
I am aware there is already a fair bit of stuff out there...tugs and other ground equipment.
A lot of it for free, if you hunt around.

Thats okay...I like the idea of another package of multiple models along a similar theme.
I also have my own style, and preferences.
And my earlier Diorama Accessory kits have sold well.

I think I'll design at 1/100? and include basic reduction percentages for printing at smaller scales,
as well as a guide for printing larger.
I was going to work at 1/72 scale, which could be easily reduced to 1/100 and smaller,
but if the models are too complicated, they will not be buildable at micro scales.
(At least not by the average builder)
I need to work at the smaller scale to keep the designs simple enough.

What say you to that?

I've already started working on one vehicle model.
Got a few photos and already got some drawings started.
My biggest problem is understanding the actual measurements and dimensions
so I can get the scale sizes right.

Many times I use Wheel sizes to judge scale in photos.
I can often look up actual dimensions of some vehicles, but knowing a standard 15" road wheel helps determine other measurements in a photo.

That hasn't worked so far (with airport vehicles)!
I have photos of two similar Tugs (Tractors) that, from a glance, had the same types of tires and wheels on them.
Some relative comparison was helping me sort out actual dimensions.
But after some analysis, I realized the wheels were extremely different in overall size and diameter.
I'm guessing one Tug had 20" wheels...and the other might be as much as 26" wheels.
And this made things difficult again.
I need to know the exact Tire size, and Wheel Rim dimension on each vehicle to use it as a scale reference.

If i could find photos that show the tires clearly, I can often get tire and wheel dimensions off the sidewalls.
But thats pretty rare.

I usually need to find the manufacturers specs on the vehicle
and thats not so easy with these airport vehicles.
I can get current specs, on current models, on manufacturers websites...
but not for older models.
So, when suggesting a type of vehicle or accessory, can you suggest an actual manufacturer and model.
Maybe even the year it was produced and any other info that would help me track down the proper specs?

[herky]

at 1;100 they would suit paper replika which i build most of so thats me happy.

[papermate]

No, it hasn't died down but as you were busy with the Saladin, I didn't bother you then.
Try Mercury GSE at Airport Ground Support Equipment | Airplane Tug, Aircraft Loaders & Tow Tractor | Airstarters, Ground Power Unit & Air Conditioners | Mercury GSE (http://www.mercurygse.com) or another one TLD GSE TLD GSE - Ground Support Equipment (http://www.tld-group.com)
I'm sure you'll get loads of info and pics there.

Papermate

[airdave]

Good stuff on those sites.
Plenty of ideas to choose from.
Hard to get specs though.
Unless its brand new stuff, with sales brochures.

I might just genericize the designs.
Maybe not try to recreate an exact model and make?
Create obvious vehicles, but using multiple design elements.

I was on the TUG website and found a nice new Pushback Tractor.
Complete with all the dimensions.
So, I am going to give this a try as my first1/100 model.

This small scale is proving to be a challenge for me.
I have to think at 1/100 when designing
...and think about how much simpler the design must be (to be buildable).
Even full 3D wheels and tires will be difficult at this scale.
I'll probably stick with flats.

This TUG Pushback has the biggest 60" diameter tractor tires.
But at 1/100, thats only .6" diameter!! 15mm!

And then I also have to consider at even smaller scales
...after the models have been printer reduced to 1/144, 1/200 and less.
An even bigger challenge!
lol
Hopefully this will be a fun challenge too.

[herky]

Good stuff on those sites.
Plenty of ideas to choose from.
Hard to get specs though.
Unless its brand new stuff, with sales brochures.

I might just genericize the designs.
Maybe not try to recreate an exact model and make?
Create obvious vehicles, but using multiple design elements.

I was on the TUG website and found a nice new Pushback Tractor.
Complete with all the dimensions.
So, I am going to give this a try as my first1/100 model.

This small scale is proving to be a challenge for me.
I have to think at 1/100 when designing
...and think about how much simpler the design must be (to be buildable).
Even full 3D wheels and tires will be difficult at this scale.
I'll probably stick with flats.

This TUG Pushback has the biggest 60" diameter tractor tires.
But at 1/100, thats only .6" diameter!! 15mm!

And then I also have to consider at even smaller scales
...after the models have been printer reduced to 1/144, 1/200 and less.
An even bigger challenge!
lol
Hopefully this will be a fun challenge too.

you could always do some 1;48 to keep the hercs company

[richkat]

Very cool Dave.....Rich

[Knife]

I brought my tape measure to work this week. Any particular piece of equipment you need measured? I'm thinking belt loader, electro, and GPU will be a good start.

[airdave]

Suggestions for models will be seriously considered.
...what can I say?...if you feel like measuring a piece of equipment...please do!

Realistically, I prefer to work from basic photo views of each "side" of a vehicle of equipment.
(right, left, front, back, top)
close ups and details shots are bonus...as are angled views.

If I have perpendicular views of each side, with little distortion,
I can usually extrapolate dimensions based on one or two known measurements.
For example, if I know the vehicle's wheel rim diameter, and tire size,
I can figure out the basic overall length, height, etc within a side view photo of the vehicle.
Trick is finding out the exact wheel and tire size!

If I have the make and type of vehicle, or actual model number, I can sometimes look up dimensions.
But...the more actual measurements I have (of any part of the equipment) the better!
Especially if photos of the item come with the measurements.

Measures by themselves, don't work unless I know the exact equipment they apply to.
So photos of whatever you measure, are also appreciated.

[airdave]

Please feel free to post more suggestions here...infact, this would be the ideal place for suggestions and critiques.
Tell me what I should or shouldn't add to this kit.

But since I have started work on the first model, I have started a dedicated Design process thread.
I'll detail the models as they develop and get added to the Kit.
Here: http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/dave-winfields-projects/38476-modern-airport-accessories-civil-aviation-diorama-kit.html#post580681