1:400 USN Destroyers!

[airbob]

I've chosen for my next project the DD Sims and the Fletcher Class destroyer builds:oops:...as shown in the picture...these kits were originally 1:200- which I have readily reduced to 1:400...to match the rest of the 1:400 fleet that I have planned:mrgreen::oops:.....here we go!!!! I don't want to redesign most of these little ships like I had to do on the Hiryu....just to have fun building them....I am thinking however of designing the Destroyer Escort that goes along with these ships...I have the very basic kit that I got from online...hmmm...we'll see how that goes:rolleyes:....onward!!!:wave7:

[airbob]

This is shots of my recent level of completion on my 1:400 Sims DD...;)

[Golden Bear]

Nice work Bob!! The USN WWII destroyers have always been favorites of mine, particularly the Fletchers and their ilk. I guess that I won't need to use up any time designing a scratch build of these!!


Carl

[dansls1]

Looking very nice so far!

[Barry]

Nice going Bob they look really good I think 1/400th is probably a much better scale.:)

regards

[Don Boose]

Bob - I like your destroyers and the builds look first class so far. Is the Pro-Model Sims still in print? If so, which vendor carries it. I haven't been able to find it on the Internet. Also, how did you reduce it? What software did you use.


Don B.

[Clashster]

Great start, Bob! Nice fleet you are putting together there!

[airbob]

Reduction is simple...I have a Mocrotek scanner ..and scan the at 300 or 600 dpi depending how fine I want the detail and than put the scanned panel in Photoshop CS and simply reduce it...in this case 50% since it reduces the original scan 1:200 to 1:400...hope this helps!:)

[airbob]

You can purchase the Sims here :http://www.zeistbouwplaten.nl/
This is pictures of my assembly of the the triple torpedo launcher for the Sims. first is the rolling of the torpedo tube on a large paper-clip to give the diameter and then the parts and then the assembled launcher in my hand and then two of the triple launchers installed on the torpedo deck of the DD Sims!!!:)

[Barry]

What thickness of paper are you using Bob and if it's card are you licking the back of it ?

Looking great

regards

[Golden Bear]

Are we going to see a diorama with a TB attacking the DD? Cute little plane. I like it a lot.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I've chosen for my next project the DD Sims and the Fletcher Class destroyer builds

Fantastic Bob.... Very nice work. Again I'm stunned by you guys that can build small stuff. Love the aircraft and the torpedoes.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[airbob]

Back to the drawing board!....these should be QUADRUPLE torpedo mounts...not TRIPLE....I need to get the DE's off my mind!!....will need to reconstruct these as Quads:(:confused::mad:!!! The paper thinkness is 40lb for the torpedo tubes and probably 70 lb or so for the rest...I have so many different types of card paper...that I never know lwhich is which...I just select it by finish and thickness by handling it....the suff for the torpedo tubes is like a thicker 20 lb paper...more like paper than card stock...

[jimkrauzlis]

Excellent work, Bob!

I really like your micro aircraft, that came out great!!

It's quite a feat to incorporate the details from 1/200 scale into the half-sized 1/400 model, and you're doing a superb job of it.

I'm looking forward to seeing more, so please treat us to more updates when you can.

Cheers!
Jim

[airbob]

Now continued work on the superstructure, and the torpedo launchers were rebuild to quads...;)

[Don Boose]

Beautiful! I love those pre-war DDs (although the Fletchers and Sumner/Gearings were beautiful ships, too).

Don B.

[Clashster]

Beautiful, Bob! Hard to believe it is so small! Great job!

[airbob]

pics with 4 little AA guns added and depth charge racks at stern...:)

[Barry]

Maybe an odd comment but those depth charge racks are something else

[Golden Bear]

Egads! That is quite the build. I don't find the comment about the depth charge racks to be at all odd. They are magnificent.

It looks like 1:400 is becoming quite the fad around here. Is the paint job on this boat actually historic? I like it.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Bob is the best person to answer Carl's question about the camouflage, but for what it's worth, the "splotch" or "dapple" version of U.S. Navy Camouflage Measure 12 that Bob's Sims is wearing was widespread during 1942, especially in the South Pacific. The basic Measure 12 consisted of Navy Blue vertical surfaces up to the deck line, Ocean Gray above that, and Haze Gray for the masts above the level of the superstructure. Just before the war, the Navy issued instructions for the use of large splotches or dapples of paint in irregular patterns visually to break up the hard outlines of the ship. If the surface was Sea Blue, then the splotches were to be haze gray and vice-versa. Sea Blue splotches were used on Ocean Gray surfaces. In 1942, Navy forces in the South Pacific began using shades of green, especially for amphibious forces (probably why LSTs were known as "Green Dragons"). By 1944, the disruptive camouflage patterns were introduced, but the Sims no doubt went to its grave during the Battle of the Coral Sea wearing the blue dappled Measure 12 as shown on Bob's beautiful ship.

There are a number of secondary sources that quote official Navy documents. I'm using the Floating Drydock publication, United States Navy Camouflage of the WW2 Era, Philadelphia, PA: Floating Drydock, 1976.

- Don B.

[jimkrauzlis]

Bob, spectacular work!

Excellent work on the little details, only one of many being those depth charge racks...truly masterful attention to detail, mate!

Cheers!
Jim

[Clashster]

Great work, Bob! How clean and crisp everything looks at that small scale is truely amazing! Thanks for the update!

[airbob]

Carl,
I just built it as it was done in the "Pro-Model" design of this ship...as to historic, hopefully so...the only pictures that I have found are like that at this website:
http://www.destroyerhistory.org/goldplater/409sims_02.html
just a standard light grey pattern...

[airbob]

however this is one of the Hughs with this apparent cammo pattern!!!
http://www.destroyerhistory.org/goldplater/410hughes_02.html

[airbob]

and the 1st Hammond in a similar cammo patttern...
http://www.destroyerhistory.org/goldplater/412hammann_02.html

[Don Boose]

Bob -- Although I can’t find any wartime photographs of the Sims, there is considerable circumstantial evidence that the ship was painted in the modified Measure 12 camouflage pattern of your superb model.

Photographs taken in 1942 of ships in both the Atlantic and Pacific show that the majority of fleet units had been painted in variations of that scheme. Robert C. Stern, in The US Navy in World War Two 1941-1942 (Warships Illustrated No. 10, Poole, Dorset, UK: Arms and Armour Press, 1987), notes that the beginning of the war, “initiated a period of fantastic invention as schemes were drawn up and applied when ships passed through East Coast dockyards.” [p. 31 - There are lots of supporting photographs throughout the book.] There is plenty of photo evidence that the same was true of West Coast dockyards, including a photograph of Sims’ sister ship, Walke (DD 416) photographed at Mare Island during a refit in August 1942 that appears in Norman Friedman, U.S. Destroyers: An Illustrated Design History (Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 1982), p. 211.

There are several photographs of Sims class destroyers in the modified Measure 12 (all taken during the first 8 months of 1942) in Al Adcock, US Destroyers in Action, Part 3 (Carrollton, TX: Squadron-Signal, 2004), pp. 18-21.

Most significant, the Stern book contains a photograph of two Sims class DDs (Morris, DD-417, and either Anderson, DD-411, Hammann, DD-412, or Russell, DD-414) standing off astern of the sinking aircraft carrier Lexington on 8 May 1942 during the Battle of the Coral Sea, the same battle in which Sims and the oiler Neosho were sunk. Both ships are in an almost identical camouflage scheme to your Sims.

Don B. (Sorry to sound pedantic. I’m a historian, I can’t help it.)

[Don Boose]

There is a book about the sinking of the Sims -- Dan Verton, Grace Under Fire: The Sinking of the U.S.S. Sims and the Amazing Story of Its 13 Survivors Hardcover (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598005812/qid=1150038395/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-5194758-0807013?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) & Paperback (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598004808/ref=ed_oe_p/103-5194758-0807013?_encoding=UTF8). I don’t have a copy, but looked at the cover on Verton’s website (http://www.danverton.com/ ), which has a photograph of the Neosho in flames, the Sims standing by, as yet unharmed, and a Japanese Zero fighter diving. The Sims is in the pre-war haze gray, as shown in your photo, Bob, but since the photo is obviously a composite, this sheds no light on the issue of the Sims’s camouflage scheme at the time of the battle (the Sims and Neosho photographs were taken at very different camera angles and are of way different scales; the “diving” Zero is in color, while the ships are in black and white, and the aircraft has its wheels down – I presume a take-off shot tilted to make it look like the plane was diving). Anyway, I sent an email to Verton to ask if he has or has seen any photographs of the Sims in wartime paint. More later. Don B.

[airbob]

Don,
Your discourse was excellent!...nice to know that the way that they did the cammo on this little beastie, was probably the way she was when she gallently went down in 1942...I have the "lady Lex" and hopefully the cammo for her will be right! Again, thanks for the most superb treatise on these gallant little ships!:D

[dansls1]

Interesting information - thanks for sharing Don. It's nice to know that us 'modellers' can count on you historians to keep things correct for us ;)

[Don Boose]

Dan --

I've enjoyed watching Bob's destroyer take shape and have gotten a lot of pleasure out of this thread (as well as several others, including yours). Carl's question about the Sims's camouflage scheme triggered an irresistible urge to dig into some of the resources in my home library and to search further.

I very much hope that I didn't give the impression that I think there is any particular distinction between historians and modellers (or that I have any particular distinction as a historian). It seems to me that most modellers have some historian in them and I sure learn a lot about history and airplanes, and ships, and trains, and cars (and spacecraft and fantastical creatures) from reading this wonderful forum.

I get a real sense of community and friendship in this forum. Since my modelling skills can't hold a candle to yours, Bobs', Carls’ and so many of the other talented contributors, I sometimes try to make a contribution in my own way when the subject turns to one of the areas where I have an interest.

Don B.

[Don Boose]

Bob -- Thanks. Since it took a fairly long time for the Lexington to go down, a lot of photos were taken of her last hours, most of them from the deck of the cruiser New Orleans. The photos show no "dappling" and in his book, Stern says that the Lexington was in "Measure 11, overall Sea Blue, common on Pacific Fleet ships during a brief period in early 1942." (p. 44) There are even clearer photographs in Steve Wiper, Warship Pictorial 11: Lexington Class Carriers (Tucson, AZ: Classic Warships Publishing, 2001), a useful resource when you start the Lexington project. Note also that the Lexington had been modified and the 8-inch gun turrets removed and not yet replaced by 5"-38 twin DP gun enclosures as the sister ship, Saratoga had.

Don B.

[dansls1]

Don,
While I do enjoy the history - I do seperate myself into a modeler (although I don't think my skills are as good as many of the other's out there) much more than an historian. I've always been one to build the model as the kit comes, rather than worry about fixing anything that may not have been 100% historically accurate. My joy comes mostly in seeing a model that looks like the designer intended. It's probably why I'll stick with building kits and not get into the scratch-building or designing aspect.
Like everything, nothing's black and white - so I hope I didn't offend anybody by implying the modeler versus historian separation. I just classify myself as much less of a historian and more of a modeler than many ;)

[Don Boose]

Dan -- I understand your point of view completely. Sometimes, I feel the same way myself about building a model as designed (although I can't resist trying to find out something about its history). I also like stick and tissue scale rubber powered flying models and belong to a group, the Flying Aces Club, that gets together in Geneseo, New York every year. One member once said that he thought plastic modelers tended to be more historians and flying modelers tended to be more engineers. There may be some truth to that, but I'm a bit in both camps and there are plenty of plastic modelers who focus on the building of a satisfying model rather than details of color and history. And plenty of builders of flying models who take great pains to make sure that they are historically accurate. And lots of us in between. Anyway, the diversity among us is grand and it's great that we can all trade information and share among ourselves in this forum.

Bob and Carl (and everyone else) -- I think the following confirms that the color scheme of Bob's destroyer is historical. I received the following response from Dan Verton, author of the book about the loss of the Sims:

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:45 PM
To: Don Boose
Subject: Re: Camouflage Scheme of USS Sims in May 1942
"Hi Don,

"You are correct that there are no known photographs of the Sims at or around the time she was lost.

"However, my father and Vito J. Vessia, two of the survivors I interviewed for my book, both confirmed to me that once she made her way to the Pacific after Pearl Harbor she was painted with the standard camo pattern you reference in your email [the modified Measure 12 of Bob's ship].

"However, my research indicates that she had been operating in the Pacific for some time prior to being painted.

"Hope that helps and hope you enjoy the book.

"Dan Verton"

[airbob]

I will continue building this weekend...(I have a long one)...will add the K-guns...(now these were really teeny)...and the lifeboats...and somehow construct the main mast...out for now...how do you like my new signature...sort of hijacked it from another guy;)

[airbob]

Here are pictures of the finished 1:400 reduced DD Sims...I am tired of working on this little ship and now want to choose another (little) ship to build cause I'm lazy and bored!:p I have enjoyed this build..not really really good. but OK....

[Barry]

That really makes 1/400 th very appealing although I doubt my ability to build that small wonderful job you may not have enjoyed it but I DID. Thanks for showing the pictures.

regards

[Clashster]

Great job, Bob! You really seem to crank out these little things! Makes me feel ashamed at the length of time my 1/25 scale project is taking!!!!

[dansls1]

She's a beaut - nice job!

[airbob]

I have finished reading Dan Vertons (his father was one of the suvivors of the "Sims") book "Grace Under Fire-The sinking of the USS Sims and the amazing story of its 13 survivors" I certaintly would recommend it to any one interested in the history of this little boat....I feel guilty about the less than perfect build on this one and may have to reconsider another build..that is closer to the prefection that this project needs as a tribute...I really should give a model to Mr. Verton if he would be interested....:)

[Don Boose]

Bob --

Glad you read Verton's book. I just took delivery of my copy and it looks good. I thought it was nice of him to respond so quickly to my query about the camo pattern on the Sims. I bet he would love to get a model. He seems like a classy guy and so do you.

Your Hiryu and Sims are real inspirations. I look forward to seeing your DE and Matsu builds and, although my skills don't match yours, I hope to soon try my hand at a 1/400 version of the Gremir Nagatsuki, making use of the resizing software.

Incidentally, is there a source of 1/400 gun barrels?

Don B.

[airbob]

Don,
I am not sure about your question about the gun barrels...I always use the barrels that are designed with the kit...ei..I always "roll" them....sometimes this needs to be cone a couple of times to get those that will pass inspection by NavOrd!...but I still just keep rolling till I get ones that will pass!!!;) Those on the "Sims" were "rolled" and then put on a large paperclip for final diameter and straitness...at this scale I use straight pins. small paper clips and larger paper clips and then for larger size the rectangular paper fasteners that have all been straightened for interior diameter for these parts...hope this helps..but probably did not answer your question...:confused:

[Don Boose]

Bob --

If I could roll barrels as well as you do, I wouldn't be concerned about the brass barrels, but they DO exist.

GPM, for example, makes brass barrels in 1/200 scale for some of their ships. These are available in the United States through the Paper Model Store (http://www.papermodelstore.com/index.php?cPath=22_39_80 ) and I purchased the 1/200 barrels for the "full sized" Nagatsuki.

I seem to remember seeing 1/400 barrels suitable for the JSC Polish warships, but I failed to make a note at the time and now I can't find the site (if it really existed and isn't a figment of my imagination).

Because of your focus on 1/400 ship model, I thought you might have come across these items.

Incidentally, I sent Dan Verton a message referring him to this forum discussion, but haven't heard back from him yet. He may be traveling.

Don

[dansls1]

I know when I was in the local hobby shop they had a ton of photo-etch detail kits for small scale (1/350 and 1/400) ships. I only saw ladders and railings, but our plastic building brethren use these detail kits as well - so I'd certainly guess that there are alternative barrel sources out there - but you may have to look outside the normal paper hobby suppliers to find them.

[Don Boose]

Thanks, Dan. I have seen the brass photo-etch sets in various scales, but haven't tried using them yet. I also bought some laser-cut paper railings in 1/200 and 1/400 and am going to try them out on some simple models.

David Hathaway recommends soaking thread in glue and then using a jig to make ship railings and I have read with interest the descriptions in this forum for soldering brass wire. Some day, I hope to try all these techniques.

Meanwhile, I will try to improve my "barrel-rolling" skills and will stay on the lookout for 1/400 brass barrels and will report if I find 'em.

Don B.

[CMDRTED]

The GPM.pl site does have 1/400 gun barrels and rails etc. The shipping cost gets a little pricey but the stuff is there. You may have to order a pkg for a specific ship, ie the Carolina class BB that JSC makes and sipe the barrels for your DDs etc

[Don Boose]

Thanks, Ted! Now I remember that it was the GPM site where I saw those barrels. Don B.