CSS Palmetto State 1-72 scale

[ct ertz]

I had a bunch ask so I am starting a new project. I am real bad at getting side tracked with something new so I figured if this is ever getting done, I had better start a thread on it.

This is (will be) the CSS Palmetto State, a 172 foot long ironclad with four guns, operating with good effect from 1862-65. It had a long career as Confederate ironclads go, and even though it was built around a real small stam engine, the engine was reliable. It might make only five knots, but at least it could always make at last five knots. Some faster ironclads were oftin left dead in the water when the bigger engine quit working!:eek:

The model will be rather detailed. I have includd a picture of the top deck, the deck above the casement.The openings will be for the pilot house (locaded aft in the old navy style!) the stack, the vent, and som gratd hatch ways with removable hatches. Also, a gally stove pipe will come up through one of the hatches. The csemnt will have a removable side to show the guns, two Brookes pivots, and two Dahlgrens on old fashioned trucks. Seperat interior pieces will include the deck rails for the pivots, wench for the anchor chains, ladders, pilot house stand with double wheel and gally stove.

I have the basic ship done from the waterline up and I will probebly make this a full hull model. I also have the barrel done for the Brooks gun and I am working on the pivot now.

And as a side note, when I get the Pivot and Bookes gun ready, I am going to put it up in the free downloads so you can get an idea of what this beast will be like. I hope that I have not bit off more then I can chew!

The finished length should be around 28 inches long.
http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/ctertz/Palmentostate1-721.jpg%5B/IMG%5Dhttp://www.papermodelers.com/forum/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/ctertz/?action=view&current=Palmentostate1-721.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%2 2http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/ctertz/Palmentostate1-721.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Photobucket%2 2%3E%3C/a%3Ehttp://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww277/ctertz/Palmentostate1-721.jpg

[Wyvern]

CT, your design skills have developed at warp speed (or "full steam", to be more in the spirit of your chosen era)!

I'm looking forward to seeing this beast! I know that you will create a superior model that will inspire the rest of us amateur designers.

Wyvern

[ct ertz]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Wyvern. I just hope now that I have committed myself that I don't go nuts!

I am finding that a good way to learn to dsign ship models is to build a lot of ships! With Morck's Civil War ships, he did a great job of combining 2d and 3d parts to give good impressions. Drago's ships are good examples of how to get the right look and feel with limited or no compound curves. Paper Ship Wright uses a lot of great detail with options, and Avery knows how to use good metal colors to bring to life what would otherwise be rather dark and flat monitors. Digital Navy is tops at muti-folding small parts! I keep all these thoughts bouncing around in my head when working on a design.

I like the Palmetto State because it is a great combination of old school and new school ship making. I love the way the pilot, helmsmen and Captain all stand on the quarter deck (in this case a small raised platform) and command the ship from the back! Just like on the old sailing ships, except for the armor and stuff!

I will get some more done today I hope!
CT

[Wyvern]

If you want any beta-building done, you have lots of fans to do it!

[Gman93643]

love the Palmetto State-have built this one before from another designer....

[ct ertz]

24568Here is a diagram of the laminated deck parts. The lower parts are 1mm the top parts are card. This piece will lay on the top of the knuckle frame work.
CT

[Gman93643]

looks awesome!!!

[ct ertz]

Here is the layout for one of the little details on the inside. This is a small wood fired cast iron stove. In good time it could heat coffee and fry catfish! In most times well...don't ask. The Gun deck seems a bit improbable at first until you see how crowded the lower deck must have been! I wounder if a wood fire would have been hot enough to heat shot for the Dahlgrens for hot shot? Hmmm...

[ct ertz]

A few more shots, the stairs and again with the stove. Now for the wheel and pilot platform...

[Papercut]

Looking great. Look forward to this one!:DRick

[cdavenport]

Corey, I am well into the Fredricksburg build and loving it. I am really looking forward to Palmetto State.

If you do the full hull version, are you going to include bulkheads. It would be so cool to do a plank-on-frame in paper.

[Gman93643]

awesome! Looking way more detailed to the other Palmetto state that I got to build!

[ct ertz]

OK, here is my plan...and I think it is coming together. The casement is going to consist of the inner walls that will be printed details such as planks. The the laminated frames. and on the out side a plane card wall. This will be on the deck. (One or more wall will be removable along with the top deck grates). Under the deck you will have the typical formers to shape the knuckle. Under this you will have the hull bulkheads, and framers. Then I will include a sheet of 8 inch wide by 20 foot long iron bars, and 10 inch by 20 foot long wood planks. These will be cut into there individual planks. The the casement, hull, and knuckles will be planked over. Finally, the knuckle edges and the casement will be armored with the iron bars, and the lower hull will get a second layer of wood planks. This will not be as hard as it sounds. The hull is planked in two parts, first the bottom, and that is nearly flat with little cut to shap and a little plank bending. The second part, the sides, are almost vertical up to the knuckle, so again, some little cut to fit will be needed and some bending, but well with in most modelers skils...I hope!

So that's the plan...work goes on...

CT

[Papercut]

Christmas is coming early:eek:Rick

[ct ertz]

A bit more work. I got the tie of thingy done that goes next to the stack and I got the "quarter deck" platform and wheel done as well. I still have the capstan to do, and of coarse, the four cannon. I am on a bit of a trip visiting in laws in VA, so things are going slower...but thy have beer so all is good!:)

Here is a shot of the construction diagram for the pieces parts placement on the deck.

CT

[Kazziga]

Impressive piece of work!

[ct ertz]

Here is a close up of the wheel and deck and the pats that make it.
CT

[Gman93643]

This is awesome! I hope those doing the test build will be able to get their hands on it soon!

[ct ertz]

OK, I got some few pages off to those who are doing my test builds. So far, the inside casement main deck lay out is complete with the exception of guns, shell racks, and people...but I have now way to email plastic figures so the people will have to wait. (I may include a couple of paper figures for the purpose of scale).

I have also started on the top portion of the "knuckle", This includes a base, three keel piece, and 26 cross piece. This may seem a bit over built but the overall length is nearing 30 inches so...

After this I will start on the casement walls and framing. The top of the casement is already done. Then on to the lower knuckle and hull frames!

CT

[Wyvern]

Looking good, Corey!

[cdavenport]

but I have now way to email plastic figures so the people will have to wait. (I may include a couple of paper figures for the purpose of scale

I purchased some N scale figures for a forced perspective shot in my Fredricksburg diorama. I am going to purchase some Z scale figures which is slightly larger than 1/250 scale.

My point: those N scale figures are itty bitty. 1/250 scale figures must be waaaaaay small!

[ct ertz]

OK folks, things are moving along. What do you all think about the armor? I have scaled the bars to be about what the ship yard would have gotten in. They are 10 inches wide and 20 feet long, with bolt holes alternating side to side every 2.5 feet. The color on the Palmetto State was blockade runner blue...I think a gray/blue color. Any how, these are to be cut and applied separate to the casement and knuckle formers. Is this going to work? What I am thinking is the edges can be colored with a rust color. This will give great depth to the finished model...I hope. Opinions? Thanks,
CT

[Papercut]

Outstanding, this just keeps getting better.:DRick

[SJPONeill]

Maybe you could produce the armour bars as new which would enable builders to weather as desired - rust would be one surface effect but there would probably other areas that would show more as raw iron where there was heavy and regular wear...

[cdavenport]

As a blockade runner, it would have been subject to salt and sun weathering which would have taken its toll on the paint job. On the other hand, if the CSS was like every other navy, it's likely deckhands would have been kept busy scraping and treating rust every time it was in port.

It's really difficult with the B&W photos of the era to spot damage due to weathering, but looking at the close-up shots of the Union Monitor, one can see a vessel that has been kept ship shape. There is even one shot of the turret with a dent from enemy action, but everything else is fairly pristine.

I wonder how much rust or weathering is really appropriate.

[ct ertz]

Confederate ironclads in other areas have little to no documentation on color, just good guess work. We know the Arkansas was a deep red rust color do to the armor rails being stored at the bottom of the river for months to avoid Yankee Cav patrols. It is speculated that some of the Richmond area ships were painted black, as the Virginia was said to be.

The Charleston area Ironclads though are repeatedly described as being a "blockade runner" blue. This makes m think that the ships were indeed painted that color and were likely repainted from time to time. The Palmetto State had a some what long career for a Confederate ironclad, so some rust would be likely, but my though is that these ships were for what ever reason were better maintained then other Confederate ironclads. Again, a lot of speculation on my part.

I could see rust being a problem in the seams between the armor bars, and along the bow where anchor chains scraped the sides repeatedly. Also along the "swing" of the gun ports, again do to scraping. Then again, if the Charlston area had a good supply of paint,as seems likely, the crews could have fixed these problems with every docking.

CT

[Wyvern]

I wonder if only the WOODEN parts would've been painted? And the armor left in it's natural metal state? It would quickly take on a patina of light brown and green from surface oxidation (not heavy rust). Also remember the operating environment here in the South (CT, Major D, and I know about this one very well)- hot and humid. Rolled iron often has surface pitting and imperfection, which would provide a toehold for mold and lichen, no matter how busy the crew stays scraping it off. And Palmetto State and her sister spent most of their careers wharfside, not underway, though they probably got more underway time than any other CSN ironclad.

Just some thoughts. CT, pics I've seen of other artist's interpretations of "blockade runner blue" show a much grayer tint, almost like the blue-gray used by the USN on aircraft early in WW2. PM me your address and I'll send you a paint chip- I've got an FS-standard paint for that finish for my plastic work. Still, I expect that like much else in the CS armed forces, while there may have been a regulation, there weren't any quantified standards- nor were there reliable supplies. Something to keep in mind.

I'm really looking forward to this model. I just bought your Virginia II off of ECardmodels.

Regards,

Wyvern

[cdavenport]

It's this sort of speculation and discussion with the designer that makes the whole process so much fun.

Since those were lead based enamel paints, they would have quickly faded under the salt and sun. The notion of a "blockade runner blue" seems appropriate, too...camouflage. Rust would certainly be there, too.

For me the real question is how much you can depict in a 1/250 scale model without overwhelming the overall look of the model.

Looking back on the pictures of my build of the Fredricksburg, I am concerned that the rust is too heavy. I'll likely go back and tone that down. Once again, looking at the little documentation available of those old ships, you really can't see much in the way of weathering. Surely they were not pristine, but I want to be careful not to overdo it.

Just my opinion and how I approach modeling.

[ct ertz]

I am working on the interior of the casement now. I am thinking of white washing the walls. I saw this on a 1:1 scale replica of the Albemarle and it seems likely that for visibility, the walls would have been painted white. The replica in the museum even stained the area around the gun ports gray and black.

Regarding the out side I think these would be good bets...

Because the Arkansas was repeatedly mentioned in period writings as rust red, it must be the extreme of the ironclads as far as rust is concerned.

The Manassas and the Virginia were black according to period writing.

The Charleston ironclads were some sort of blockade runner blue as per period descriptions. As there careers were over years and h descriptions stayed the same, they must have been repainted periodically. Also, being such a large and active port, these ironclads would have had access to paint from Europe as well.

All exposed decks were raw pine, except on the few ships that had armored decks.

Anyhow, just some thoughts.

CT

[SJPONeill]

CT, how thick were the armour iron bars? I'm just wondering if they could not be prinyed on relatively light paper and folded around a strip of .5/.8 card. This would (touch wood) give a scale thickness, also reduce exposed edges, and also provide a 'seam' between each bar. This would enable post-contruction weathering with washes and powders to the level that the modeller requires?

All navies seem to have a 'deveil makes work...' philosophy so I think that any ironclad that spent any period of time tied up would be kept in relatively good condition (visibly anyway) to keep the crew out of mischief. In 1/72, it would probably be easy enough to find some figures that could illustrate exactly that maintenence/discipline process...

Simon

[ct ertz]

Each iron bar would have been 10 inches wide by 20 feet long and 2 inches thick. The bars were put on the Palmetto State in two layers. This would be two layers of 1.397 mm card on a perfectly scaled model. The model needs to be layered with two layers of bars because of the curve of the knuckle. Their would have been a real slight gap on between the bars at the knuckle edge to make the cureve so the second layer would overlap this.

[Papercut]

Looking good, Corey! I have been sent the first shots of the vessel, and know this, she is and will be a winner too anyone interested in CSS vessels.:DRick

[ct ertz]

Here is a diagram of what I intend for the casement. The thing is held up with frames of 1mm thickness, with the top "beams" doubled. The inside will have a printed inner wall of white boards. The out side will be a plain card stock cover to support the "armor" bars. Only the wood colored beams will show. The model maker may cut out any number of wall beams and corresponding walls to create a cut a way view, or leave all of the framers and leave off the inner wall and outer wall for a given length to make the inside visible. I hav about 1/2 of th frames done, I will gt the other half in the morning if my kid dose not require too much attention during home school. He is on a part that he mostly dose himself. Any how...:)
CT

[ct ertz]

Just an up date. the kit so far has 15 pages of parts. The casement has 41 formers, an inner wall and outer wall, a top deck pieces, plus opening boarders for the top deck openings. As soon as I get the last of the casement stuff done and the guns done then the Water line model will have all of the parts needed. Not all of these parts would be needed if a guy was only doing an exterior model. The inner wall and about 1/2 of the casement formers could be avoided, along with all of the inside details, but hay, what fun would that be!

I am at about 300 parts done at this time. I sure hope that they all fit! Not counting the armor bars and wooden planks, I am thinking it will fall in around 1000 parts. Wow, I hope they all fit!

here is a view of the cament framers. The wood colored parts form the overhead beams and are seen, the legs will be sandwiched between the inner wall and the armor baring wall on the outside.
CT

[Papercut]

Man, did you ever do what we asked, above and beyond what I expected. I can not wait to see what you do with the big guns.:eek:Rick

[ct ertz]

yah, working on the guns now. I am also making a simpified 1/250 scale waterline model of this ship too, and started another thread on it. If anyone wants to do the 1-250 model and post build pictures on that thread, just PM me with your mail. I had to take a break from all these framers on this big model! Any how...on to this one.

[Papercut]

Just finished printing up what I have so far of this outstanding model. All I can say is she is going to be a beauty. And big enough for the detailers to go to town with. I like the colors too. Looking forward to the rest of the kit. I printed on Bristol to give it that classic print look like you get from a comic book print. This worked really well. I have discovered by using different types of card, I can get different looks to the models finish. Just have to make sure you keep the paper weight the same! You also have the ability to build as a plank on frame, just like the wood boys do. I find this really a neat side to this model. If you used Photo-Shop to neg. out the print, print in black line drawing and used oil paints, wow, just might have to give a try.:eek:Rick

[ct ertz]

Thanks Rick. This has been a trying design all total Still a lot to do. WARNING! the center "keel" to the upper knuckle has the cut outs for the crodss pieces on the wrong side. This can be corrected by simply turning the keel piece up sid down as this will have no effect on fit, but the numbers will be up side down too. I am correcting this on the print out now.

I hope th build goes well or you,
Corey

[cdavenport]

Rereading your posts, CT, I am unsure if you have designed a full hull or waterline only version. I have a great book on ironclads that shows the flat bottom of this series of vessels. So, in any event, a full hull will be easy for a non-naval guy to reproduce.

[ct ertz]

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, this will be a full hull model.

Actually, this model is designed in two halves. The fist half is the upper knuckle and the casement. (almost ready) This alone will make a dandy waterline model. The second halve is the lower knuckle and the hull, that will mate up easily with the upper section to form the full model. Even as a plank on frame hull, the planking will be relatively easy even for those who have not done it before because of the shape.

Th casement parts are taking longer then I expected but I want them right.

Hope to have things in order real soon. I had to take a short break and work on something I could finish in a few days. (instant gratification) so I mad a 1/250 scale model of the CSS Palmetto State. It is a water line model with far fewer details at that scale. I started a build thread for that too. I plan on offering it free through ecardmodels if chris is agreable. I need builders and pictures though. But now...on to this bigger model!
CT

[Gman93643]

which piece is printed upside down?

[ct ertz]

OK, on page 9, the keel part that has the numbers 7-13 on it, and on page 10, the part 14-20. Basically, the cross pieces have the slots running from the bottom up and the keel pieces should have the slots running from the top down. You would glue on the keels first, then the cross pieces (after a good dry fit). The parts mentioned have square ends and simply by flipping then so you can glue the un cut top down first will fix the problem with out requiring any changes or printing more parts. I am fixing the pages now. Thanks,
CT Ertz.

[Gman93643]

Ok I see that, I am laminating parts now so that came in handy Thank You!

[ct ertz]

OK, the casement is coming along and will be a project in it's self. it will go something like this:
Glue the two ring bases together. They will have numbers around the starboard side and a couple of cross bars in red. Then carefully glue in the Inner walls of the casement, which will be the two ends and the starboard side only. It will be a little flimsy but not for long. Now glue on your formers, they will be like upside down ribs. The leg of the rib that is red is temporary and will be on the port side. There are numbers on the starboard ring for placement and lines on the port side to use as a guide. You will also have to glue on the box frames of the openings in the top deck as well. Everything is marked. Keep it square. Then glue on the outer armor bearing wall. Now fit on the top deck pieces. Trim and file as needed to get everything in line. Finally, remove from glass base and clip or cut off all of the red supports. The lowered the casement over the already completed deck. You will have noticed that the deck pieces when glued as marked leave a hollow. This is for the casement base ring, and it should sit right in. Now you are ready for laying the armor.

Jpegs soon...

What do you think?
CT

[Gman93643]

my build thread of this awesome ship will commence shortly under ships and watercraft...

[Wyvern]

Really enjoying seeing this come together, CT. Knowing you're doing this while homeschooling your children increases my admiration all the more.

Wyvern

[ct ertz]

Here is a diagram of the casement framing. It is now ready for the top deck to be placed on it, then the outer layer of card to hold the armor. All of the framers are 1mm, but the overhead beams are doubled, so in scale measurements they will look like 6"x12" beams.

All of the red will be clip away after the top deck and outer walls are added and all is dry and solid. It is hard to see but the starboard side, the ends, and a few "feet" on each port end have the inner wall in place.All of the wood colored stuff will be visible, all of the gray is "sandwiched" between inner and outer walls.

As stated earlir, when this is done, it can be lowered onto the gun deck, there is a 1 card layer depression colored gray in the gun deck that the casement should slid right into.

When everything is done, the ship can be planked and armored, forming a seamless line between the casement, knuckle and hull. Thats the plan!:D
CT

[ct ertz]

Here is the casement jpegs. The first is of the ring with the inner wall attached. The second is with the ring, inner wall and the formers. Th next shows the casement with the ring, inner wall, formers, outerwall and top deck. The last is of the finishd casement, with the temoarrary red parts snipped away.

[Wyvern]

Most impressive.

Wyvern

[ct ertz]

Here is a page from the kit instructions.I hope that it will be clear enough when combined with the parts pages:)
CT

[cdavenport]

I have been reading a book on CW Ironclads. While there is reference to wood construction, I haven't been able to discern what kinds of woods were used. Oak, maple and cypress would have been plentiful as well as the ubiquitous pine.

I have seen the remains in Columbus, but I can't remember if the types of woods were mentioned.

[ct ertz]

As far as I know, the Southern "Ideal" was six layers of two inch iron over 22-24 inches of soft wood, with framing and beams in hard wood. I do not know how often the ideal was met. The Albemarle was built this way, but had the 'ribs" of the ship set side by side then planked, giving it exceptional strength for ramming. Most Confederate ships achieved only 4 inches of iron. Soft wood was thought to be better for backing the hard wood. Iron bars wre eithr bolted clear through, or held on with huge wood screws, or a combination.

[Papercut]

Here is a page from the kit instructions.I hope that it will be clear enough when combined with the parts pages:)
CTWhen will the parts be ready, don't mean to be pushy, you got us hooked, now you have to supply.:DRick

[ct ertz]

Casement parts are ready, I just need to add the rest of the next and I think they will have there own PDF to help keep things organized. Oh, and I need to add the placement of the gun ports, but I need to finish the cannons first to get the height right. Pivot carriages ar almost done, will send shortly!

The build is looking so cool! And big!

[ct ertz]

When ready, I will offer the pivot Brooks gun and base as a free download as well, for those who are curious about the amount of detail that will be offered in this kit!

The Carriage is designed to be made mostly with two layers of 1mm card to get the scale thickness needed. Much of the wooden parts were banded with iron, so edge coloring can be black and it will look right. This is a slightly modified carriage,as the Palmetto state was a narrow ship with "necked down" casement ends. The rear wheels and the front wheels of the pivot are set at two different arcs, and did not work together. A jack would lift the rear wheels off the deck and anchor the pivot at the pivot point. Using ropes, the gun would be moved from one port to another. Then the jack lowered and using poles for leverage as well as ropes, the rear of the pivot would be moved right or left to "aim" the cannon, but the arc would be quite limited do to the smallnss of the port.

[Wyvern]

Sign me up for that test build!

Wyvern

[sirinyildiz]

Wyvern, what is the name and the version of the software for design

[ct ertz]

The programs I am using for this are Google Sketch up 6, a free download, and Gimp for coloring and text. I can not get Google Sketch up 6 to work with Waybe on my computer, so all of the "unfolding" is part by part and face by face.

Carriage and pivot are done, now for the banded barrel...

[ct ertz]

Here sheet on for the carriage. Sheet two will have the second carriage parts and the two barrels.
CT

[jagolden01]

Exceptionally nice, CT!

[Papercut]

Man, that is nice, this will be a class build. I thought the idea of painting the edges of the iron armor rust was good, will give this a try to see how it looks. Looking forward to the parts.:DRick

[ct ertz]

I messed up somewhere...the tail end of the pivot will hit the capstan. I have to move it out of the way...

[ct ertz]

Here is a shot of one of three pages of casement formers. these are basically sandwiched between the inner and outter casement wall.

The other shot is of the inside walls. Painted off white for better visibility, they would have stained easily with the cannon fire. Black powder goo is a real pain to get off anything.

The front and rear gun ports are over sized do to the extreme angle of the ends. The gun needs the room. The front and back outer gun ports are a lot smaller.

Any comments are welcomed.

CT

[Wyvern]

Sharp-looking graphics, CT. I really like the powder-stain effect.

Wyvern

[jagolden01]

Looks nice CT. Really like the idea and execution of an interior and you're doing it up right!

[ct ertz]

The Dahlgrens are ready, we ar up to 481 parts so far. WOW, I hope that they all work! I chose the Marsilly carriage with a neat little hand jack used for training the gun to mount the Dahlgrens on. I think about everything is done for th waterline version except the outer casement wall. I am also going to include a 12 pound Dahlgren Boat howitzer as well, for deck top mounting on a slide carriage. These were for anti personel weopens and many drawings of the Virginia and other ironclads show these little guns mounted when not in general action against another ship.

CT

[ct ertz]

Here is page 21, the front ring base for the casement , one of the two Dahlgrens and the little boat howitzer.:)
CT

[Wyvern]

I am just drooling looking forward to this kit. Nearly shorted out my keyboard.

Wyvern

[ct ertz]

My 1/250 scale Palmetto State is up in www.ecardmodels.com now and its a free download! It is the little waterline modl of the big one i am still designing! Check it out.
CT

[redhorse]

Thanks very much for the freebie!!! Man, you are really outdoing yourself on this one!

[ct ertz]

OK folks, to keep the 1/72 scale Palmetto State going, I have enlisted the help of Knife for this. I can only hope he may accomplish a working hull were I have failed.
CT

[cgutzmer]

I have seen his workmanship and know he can do it! (no pressure heh heh)

Full hulls are the bane of my existence....

[jmr248]

Is it just my goofy computer or did we lose some of the posts on this thread? I am having computer problems so I am not sure what is an internal problem of mine and what is not.

Joe

[Knife]

I made a quick (yea, right, about 4 hours of work) mock-up of the lower hull of the CSS Arkansas so I can get a handle of problems with unfolding. As you can see, basically all I'm doing is creating parallel lines on the flat parts, thinning down to a taper at the ends. After finishing creating the surfaces, I will try two methods to unfold them, the first will be to go from bulkhead to bulkhead, treating the hull like a modern ship's hull with plates. The other method will be to do long strips more like traditional hull planking. I will see which of the methods creates the best look while keeping the model relatively simple to build.

[Gman93643]

so I am totally confused now, so who is working on the finishing touches to the full hull Palmetto State so I can continue building the model???

[Knife]

I'm still awaiting the files from CT Ertz. I think he has to locate them on an old hard-drive. If you send me the sheets that Corey has already given you, I may be able to scan them into SketchUp and reverse engineer a solution. PM me if you want to go this route. I have permission from CT to receive his files for the Palmetto State. Let's set a goal of having this project wrapped up by Christmas.

In the meantime, you can track how my Arkansas hull is coming along at http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/knifes-projects/11953-css-arkansas-4.html. The build of the Palmetto State's hull shouldn't be too different from the Arkansas's hull.

[Knife]

I received MOST of the files from ngwithrsd, and have printed them out (and refilled my ink cartridges!). I received pages 1-12, and 14-23. What I'm still missing are the bulkheads/formers for most of the below waterline model, which will be critical to design the outer skin for. If any of you beta builders have sheet 13 and any of the sheets past 23, I would really like to get a copy. And if there is any way to get a copy of the SketchUp model from Corey, it would save many hours of redesign work. I will post some construction photos on this thread as I go along.

I'm installing a new motherboard and processor in my computer this afternoon, so I may disappear for awhile due to technical difficulties.

[Knife]

Ngwithrsd has come through, and sent me the rest of the files (thanks). By my calculations, I now need to eat about 8 more frozen pizzas to get enough cardboard to build up the frame. In the vein of the "you might be a paper modeler" thread, you might be a paper modeler if you base your breakfast cereal purchases on the size of the box you need for your next project.:)

I still would like to get a copy of the original SketchUp file of the old lady to properly design the hull skins.:cool:

[Gman93643]

There was no sheet 13 as far as I know. I know that it was supposed to have parts that were missing such as the stove pipe and the stack, but I never received it....

[Knife]

It's been a week since an update to this project. I finally got all those bulkheads cut out and glued together. Without CT's SketchUp model to work from, I was going to scan the bulkheads into SketchUp and reverse engineer the model. But after cutting out over thirty frames, I realize this would be very time consuming and decided to go old school. This means I just laid a sheet of cardstock over the frame, and marked where to cut cut to make it lay flat. It only takes six pieces per side to arrive at an acceptable hull. The patterns for the hull surface are slightly oversize, to allow for trimming and minor adjustments. My current plan is to have the hull skinned in two layers to prevent the ribs from showing through. Here you can see the first layer applied to the frames.

The next layer will be in the same shapes, but will have the textures applied. I will have to experiment a little to get a good looking graphic. I want it be black to simulate tar covered boards, but I also want the board textures to be visible.

[Gman93643]

so is there any thing the beta builders should be doing at this point besides eating popcorn?

[Knife]

Nope, just sit back and relax. Well, maybe your model will need to be dusted from sitting so long for the late bits to show up. Enjoy the holiday. From reading through this thread, I think you and Papercut are the only two beta builders. If there are any others out there, they need to let me know so I can send out the finished sheets.

[Knife]

My Christmas deadline was met, I have the parts sheets for the full hull version of the CSS Palmetto State. I have it in three different paint schemes, a natural wood color, a white-washed color, and a tarred version. I also threw together a propeller. I haven't had time to completely test fit the parts, so for ngwithrsd and ctertz the files won't go out until tomorrow.

[Knife]

All my trial fit of the pieces are complete, and I believe my part of this project is done. I guess this means the pressure is back on to Corey to complete this kit and ngwithrsd to finish up the beta build. For me, I need to clean off the work desk (as evidenced in the photos) and get back to work on the Arkansas.

[Knife]

Since I'm not including instructions, here's how to throw this beastie together. I start from the stern and work forward, start with the bottom of the hull and work towards the waterline. The parts are designed oversize, and will need to be trimmed to fit the individual model. I did this since I've been having problems getting consistant size prints out of my computer. Better to have parts too big that can be cut down, rather than too small and have gaps. Once one part is glued in place (with spray adhesive) put the next piece in position and use a straight edge razor to trim the glued piece to match the next piece to go on. I included parts that can be glued over the original keel pieces to hide the red coloring on the original parts.

I will also include a sheet with nothing but wood planking that can be duplicated and sliced up that can be used to plank over the hull as in traditional wooden boat construction. I hope this helps everyone waiting for this model.

[Gman93643]

This is an awesome and efficient completion the the hull of this model. My question now is, who is handling the final parts distribution to the beta builders? We still have no sheet 13, nor a stack or a stove pipe unless those were included with the hull pieces. Is CT going to take over from here and complete the kit?

[Knife]

I hope CT takes it up from here. Someday I would like to completely build this ship to go with my CSS Arkansas. The missing page 13 I can't do anything about, since I never saw it to begin with. As I said in an earlier post, I would just jury-rig a stove pipe from sections of q-tip shafts. And the smokestake would be a simple cylinder easily made from the original sketchup model. Or you could take the smoke stack from one of his 1/250 scale designs in the download section and enlarge it 347% to make the part. There's not much detail in smoke stack so it should withstand the enlargement without loosing much in looks.

I think there needs to be a large upswelling of requests demanding CT finish up this model! I know he now has the experience to produce a nice design at this scale.

For my part, I'm going to concentrate on finishing up the CSS Arkansas followed by a large size city class ironclad like the USS Cairo. The actual design work shouldn't be that hard, but I need to learn the best way to produce understandable instructions to go along with the kits.

Meanwhile, Corey has produced three ironclad designs and two timber ships in the time I have been able to make 1/3 of the hull on the Arkansas. It's hard to keep up with his production rate.

[Gman93643]

I hope he does too. I thought that the whole intent of the beta builders completing this model was so that it could be ready to make its way on over to Ecardmodels so that other modelers can purchase and build it. I think that we still need to resolve the missing parts prior to this in order to make that possible. The completion of the hull is a great accomplishment, but it still does not change the fact that more parts are needed to make this a complete model. I would like to hear from CT on this so that we know that there is a firm commitment to finally complete this kit rather than putting it on the back burner in favor of these other 1/250 scale quickie kits...

[ct ertz]

OK folks, here is the score on this. Although my old laptop is still shot, I managed to find and extract all of my "click free" files I had auto saved on a Click Free hard drive. This means that the project can go on.

Here is what I need to do.

Resize/scale all sheets to the same size in Gimp. I did not know how to do that or even that I needed to do that when I first started this project.

I will also finish all of the exterior casemate parts. Most are already done or nearly so. Yes, smoke stack included.

I also need to reexamine the casemate parts. I worry about gun ports lining up and so on.

Roy, I need to know what you have printed and what you intend to do next. Did you get working hull plates or should I send them on to you. Also, did you already start printing the casemate yet?

I will get these things done next before any new models.

CT

[Knife]

I think the major parts missing are the casemate exterior sides. I know it's basically just a six flat sheets and his original plan was to use scale strips to simulate the armor plating. But these strips will need a backing to glue them to, and the accurate placement of the gun ports needs to be identified. Come to think of it, I also don't remember seeing gun port covers on the parts sheet. A good scratch builder has enough material to complete this kit at this point, but you are right that it's not ready for public release at this time.

[Gman93643]

I have not printed the casemate at all since as far as I knew it was not complete and that there were issues with those gun ports. I have received the hull assembly pieces from knife and it now appears that I finally have the ability to complete the lower hull. The stack was missing along with the stove pipe and I had never received parts sheet 13 if there indeed was one...

[Knife]

Corey, you beat me to the "post" button.

Glad to hear the project can go on. But now I have to see if I can get my Arkansas done before you complete the Palmetto State. The race is on!

[ct ertz]

Well I hope all is going well with those hull plates. For my part, I am back n track. having rebuilt the Palmetto State's gun deck I have had to move items around. Even so, it is amazing how crowded the gun deck is. The two smooth bore guns are really crammed into the thing. Working the starboard gun, placed at the rear of the casemate, the gunners would have to be careful to clear the aft pivot as well as the aft stairs and the pilots platform when loading and aiming the piece. A lot of "pinch points" when avoiding recoil!

I have managed to get both the outer wall and inner wall of the casemate, and am working on the gun port spacers. I have also moved the winch back to avoid the forward pivot and the port smooth boar. Now that I know it will all fit, I will have been starting to redo the parts pages. This is not as complicated as it sounds, just some minor adjustments to the current pages. I am also finishing the new diagrams and the missing outer casemate parts. This project will now go on.

Thanks are owed to Knife for the hull plates and to Roy for the 14 month endeavor to do this test build.

CT

[Gman93643]

any further updates?

[ct ertz]

Yes sir, everything on the gun deck in in place and checked (digitally) for fit. I changed the way the steps go, I am not sure what I was thing on the original draft. Most important, I got the gunports aligned for the guns complete with the spacers for the thickness of the casemate. I have also added the vent/stove pipe/ and Upper smoke stack to the parts. If the kids leave me alone today, I will finalize these and get them to you tonight. All of the parts that you have built already have not been changed, with the exception of the gundeck. However, the size/shape has not been changed, only the little bluish colored markers indicating the placement of "stuff" like the steps has been changed. You can either go with what you have, or reprint the new deck on printer paper and apply it over the old, what ever you think best. Either way it should not mess with your build.

How are those hull plates working out? Did they transfer well from Knifes test to your test?

With the decking now properly laid out and the new upper deck parts added, I am now adjusting the casemate walls (inner and outer) using the unfold tool (that I did not have back when I originally started this) to insure fit, and I will be double checking the casemate formers and deck hatch framing. Having the proper tools sure helps speed things along! I will also add some pictures to this thread for those still following along.

In short, the end is finally in sight. Happy modeling,
CT

[Gman93643]

I received the hull pieces but I am waiting for the remainder of the parts before I continue this project. Once I have the final pieces I believe it will be less stressful to continue the test build...

[ct ertz]

Progress! The five pages of main deck parts are done, and the first page of corresponding diagrams is finished. The pages for the hull have been done, and now I am working on the casemate/hurricane deck parts, that is, double checking fit and placement.

[SJPONeill]

I can't wait...love the stove: I came across my old Airfix OO/HO Wagon Train the other day and there's enough bags of grain and other supplies in that set to feed the crew of the Palmetto State for a few days...no pots or pans though...

[ct ertz]

Back from the dead...more work accomplished today. Here is another shot of the instructions for the gun deck features. :) The Palmetto State used poles off of the upper stack for signal lines. The lines would run below into the casemate just next to the pilot stand. That is what that hitching rail is for, so the signal lines could be hauled upon to raise and lower signal flags as per the commanders orders.
CT

[ct ertz]

Ok, here is a shot of one of the overhauled parts sheets for the gun deck. All of the vertical surfaces such as the sides of the pilot's platform and inner casemate walls are painted an off white. I dirtied up the deck and a bit of the white pilot's platform to simulate the powder residue from the Dahlgen gun. Even though the crew would have done cleaning that blowback from the guns would have stained up the pine wood I think. At any rate I like the effect. I did the same to a lesser extent for the aft pivot gun, but because it sticks further out of the casemate there would have been a bit less blow back. And the mess would have been spread between three opennings. I hope this looks alright.:)
CT

[Knife]

Looking much better than the original, your skills are constantly improving. The powder burns adds much to the look. Glad to see this project back on track.

[jimkrauzlis]

Looking much better than the original, your skills are constantly improving. The powder burns adds much to the look. Glad to see this project back on track.

I have to say I agree wholeheartedly....that is about the best graphic version of a planked deck I have ever seen, and I have seen a LOT of others. Excellent job, my friend!

Cheers!
Jim

[ct ertz]

Thanks guys. Here is another update. The numbering and detailing on the weather decks. I was shooting for a raw pine deck that was sun-bleached, and stained with rust and black powder residue. Again, I know that the crews would have been put to work scrubbing the decks clean but on raw pine those stains would have soaked right in. And I know what happens to untreated pine when you leave iron setting on it when wet, even for a short period of time! So I hope I have this looking somewhat right.

Now don't panic, the rest of the parts for this section need little detailing, just re-numbering. i do wonder what color the cannon carriages might have been. I have them wood tone now.

The hurricane deck and the casemate walls are being re-detailed, but I am approaching closure. I would really like to thank Knife for his help on the hull panels and a big thank you is owed to Roy for keeping up with this project for 14 months! thanks guys.:)
CT

[Ironcladman]

Hi,

I have been learning how to use GSU and I thought I would practice with one of them northern ironclads! Since it seems to be a bit southern here!

Attached is a pic so far! heheHEEhehe

Sincerely,
Ironcladman

[Knife]

Be careful, Ironcladman. This program is strangely additive. You might have to go through a 12 step program to get your life back.

[Ironcladman]

Hi,

Knife: TOOOOOO LATE! You will never take my GSU away! You will have pry it from my shrivelled, cramped, paws! The sad thing is I didn't have a life before GSU.....it was ORocket, Orbiter, MS FlightSim.....help me Mister Wizard! Anyway.....

Hey I have a question, since we are buildin these spiffy models in GSU and I see talk of some GSU world, can we upload these clads and steam them around and pound each other with shot and shell? I REALLY hated building models that I could not play when I was just a young lad in my 50s.

I want to make full hull papers and put micro RC in them. I want to steam the GSU models online.....I, I, I,....I made meself dizzy!

Well this is really fun.

[ct ertz]

I don't know much about Rc stuff, but this extra large model is kicking my but.

I will finally be able to send off the "Gun deck and weather deck" PDF complete with instructions to Roy tonight. It even has the stove pipe, long missing but now back! here is a shot of the pivot carriage instruction. Roy already made his guns with out the instructions and they came out great. None of the parts have changed, just a better layout on the sheets to reduce the number of card stock sheets needed in the final model.:)

The casemate skin when done will represent the inner layer of horizontal armor bars with a couple of wooden spacers. The wooden spacers were for the outer armor layers bolt holes. Then over the skin the outer layers detailed "iron bars" will be individually applied. This way, on the other side that is left open to view the gundeck detail, some outer armor can be left off to show the inner armor arrangement.

So goes the plan anyhow! More to come soon.

CT

[Ironcladman]

Hi,

It is looking Grrrrrrrreat CT and I think Mircro RC stuff would fit JUST PERFECT in it!

Started another one CSS Atlanta!

[ct ertz]

Looking good on the Atlanta. :)

I am finally finished with the directions. This set is finally done and will be shipped off to my test builder tonight for his evaluation. Hopefullu, if all goes well we should have a model being made again. No, on the the casemate.
CT

[Knife]

For Ironcladman, and anybody else interested in R/C ironclads from the War of Northern Agression, check out this site:

http://walternelson.com/ironclads.pdf

[jmr248]

Knife

I had not thought about linking the file you have listed. Reading it was what lead me to this site. A very good read with some great illustrations.

Joe

[Ironcladman]

For Ironcladman, and anybody else interested in R/C ironclads from the War of Northern Agression, check out this site:

http://walternelson.com/ironclads.pdf

Hi,

Yep, I got this paper, and it is great, but I wanna build paper models and install micro RC stuff in them. Those models cost way to much and are way to big....but they are nice!

Question for CT: What is the longest ironclad length, so I can figure out what scale would be the best to build all the ironclads in?

[ct ertz]

According to John Wallis the CSS Yazoo City, or Yazoo Monster, was and is the largest war ship built inland. It was a staggering 340 feet in length and 100 feet across the paddle-boxes. I started a model of this beast some time ago and hope to be back with it soon.

I have started on detailing the casemate of the CSS Palmetto State and will have pictures soon of the digital. Because most of the port wall is left open to view the gundeck, four supports will be left in place for strength. On these supports will mount the brackets for the two port side ships launches. It will be up to the builder to decide if the launches shall be put in place or not, as they may block a lot of viewing of the gun deck details. I will also include two mast/boom setups as well. These would have been useful in lowering boats and in tacking on supplies, and it is known that the Chicora had such a set up.

CT

[Ironcladman]

According to John Wallis the CSS Yazoo City, or Yazoo Monster, was and is the largest war ship built inland. It was a staggering 340 feet in length and 100 feet across the paddle-boxes. I started a model of this beast some time ago and hope to be back with it soon.

:eek: ONUD! That is just Kooky Big!

[ct ertz]

Well, it nears completion. Here is the general layout of the casemate for viewing. I still need to add the second mast, the booms, and the vent. The parts are laying out nice as well.
CT

[jmr248]

Looking good CT, waitiing patiently to purchase a copy. Let me ask a question regarding something that I have just noticed. On the steering platform, one of the wheels appears to be in a strange position in that the wheel is on the outside of the brace. Your design has not changed and it was this way in September 0f 2009 but just noticed it. Any idea as to why these ships were constructed in this matter concerning the 2nd ships' wheel.

Joe

[ct ertz]

This type of wheel was actually two wheels with the axle between. Around the Axle would be a rope rapped around a number of times. The ends of the rope drop down below deck to a bock and tackle and finally to a sort of shortened whip-staff. This was a quick and relatively cheep what to make steering rigging that goes back to the age of sail. The double wheel meant that as many as four people could grip the wheel at once, to manhandle the rudder over, sort of an early power steering. I am not sure how many Confederate ironclads had this sailing ship wheel set up. With such a heavy ship, a larger rudder would have been ineffective with out the strength to back it up. With such limited room below, the whip-staff would have been small and the mechanical advantage of the block and tackle limited I guess. Also, because of the pilot platforms two foot rise, the wheel used by the pilot would be at a more comfortable height in normal conditions, but the fore wheel would be two foot higher off the deck, enabling sailors to push and pull on it using body weight. I believe conventional ships of the period, such as the USS Hartford also had this double wheel set up, minus the platform.
CT

[ct ertz]

And a few more shots with both booms attached. I am unsure if the Palmetto state used booms and masts or davits to lower the boats. I have pictures/drawings, showing both in use at different times. I know that the sister ship the Chicora seems to of had masts and a boom set up, with out davis at all. So, like much else on this model, I leave it up to the builder as to which items to place on the casemate.
CT

[ct ertz]

Now for the armor question. On the original it is likely that over the wood casemate the 10 inch wide by two inch thick iron bars were laid horizontally. These bars would have probably been pre-drilled, an alternating left/right hole every 42 inches. Therefor, on the casemate, a two inch wide spacer of wood would have been used after every forth bar. I have copied this pattern onto the "skin" of the casemate pieces.

Onto the horizontal armor the vertical outer layer would be laid. The pre-punched/drilled holes would line up with the wood spacer. In this way, the holes only needed to line up with the wooden spacers, and not other holes. I have made the iron armor bars with the bolt heads. The modeler will need to glue these to 1mm card and cut each one out, edge color with blue and (brown/red rust) and glue in place, always starting from the center of the panel and from the top of the casemate down. That is to say, trim each piece fa little bit until the piece lines up. Adding the armor will be done after the casemate has been set into the deck, because the bars should extend over the casemate/knuckle seam.

I have some shots of the process below.

If this works out it will give a real nice look with the armor ready to pop out in real 3-d.

[Knife]

Looks like you are fleshing out the model really well. The interior shots give a good picture of the cramped conditions in the ironclads. It's even worse on the Arkansas, since it has twice the number of guns. On the Arkansas, the stove is one deck below the gun deck. I wonder if the Palmetto State had the stove on the gun deck to heat shot prior to firing?

I'm amazed at the speed you show in designing this ship. I worked all day today and only got 11 frames designed on my model. I still have no idea how I'm going to build up the casemate, so you are way ahead of me.

Can't wait to see your design finished, keep up the good work.

[Knife]

Forgot to mention that there's several sizes of bolt heads designs available over at PaperModelers.sk in PDF format.

PaperModelers.sk • Zobrazenie témy - matice 1-1,5- 2-2,5-3mm (http://papermodelers.sk/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=2074)

[jmr248]

CT
Thanks for the lesson on steering these monters. I was thinking that 4 steeres would be standing on the platform and not 2 on the deck. Makes alot more sense when you move 2 men off the platform and on to the deck.

Joe

[ct ertz]

All those are hex heads though. They were just coming into common use in late 1800s (although they were know to be used much earlier). Most period bolt heads and nuts were square. Although, some large items do seam to of had Hex nut with square bolt heads, such as Union siege mortars. I am guessing that the Palmetto State had round flat heads and square nuts, but this only a guess. Some ironclads actually used large wood screws in an attempt to stop flying broken bolt heads in combat. And some have been reported to use a combination of screws and bolts. I would be hesitent to use hex heads until/unless I find something definite.

Still, good reference and useful on other projects.

As to steering, as I said, most of the time two on the wheel would likely be enough. But in a storm or in combat, the extra hands would sure be welcome.

CT

[redhorse]

I really enjoyed those interior pictures.

[Ironcladman]

Hi,

That looks Eggsellent CT! Hey can you upload it to Google World and we can drive it around and walk through it?

[jimkrauzlis]

I really enjoyed those interior pictures.

Me too! Always wondered what went on under the armor....

Fantastic work, CT!

Cheers!
Jim

[Gman93643]

Still waiting for the rest of the parts at this point it appears....

[ct ertz]

I am laying out the better fitting casemate formers and hatches now. It really is almost done. I think this is it, one more set of parts and it should be ready. You should already have the hull, hull formers, lower knuckle, upper knuckle, and all of the deck stuff. I have the outer shell, inner shell, boat racks, stacks, and vents, hatch covers, gun port liners and stairs finished. I thing the formers, and port covers are the last things.

CT

[SJPONeill]

Just wondering if this got released someplace and I missed it - couldn't find it over at Ecardmodels...

[Gman93643]

Welp, I never got any parts after the hull pieces were delivered, so unless someone else built the test model and completed it all the way through, I don't know what to tell you...

[Rikhardr]

Where is a link for purchasing the C.S.S. Palmetto State 1-72 scale?

Thanks ~

[SJPONeill]

The design build was never completed as far as I know although it was probably far enough along that CT may consider releasing it as far as it got for those that are interested in this build...certainly my fat fingers find the scale more amenable than 1/200 or 1/250...

[Rikhardr]

:( Looks like a great detailed model!

The design build was never completed as far as I know although it was probably far enough along that CT may consider releasing it as far as it got for those that are interested in this build...certainly my fat fingers find the small more amenable than 1/200 or 1/250...

[ct ertz]

I never finished the hull. Discovered my limitations. I will post this in the downloads for those who want a large scale waterline...

[Rikhardr]

Great & thanks! :)

i never finished the hull. Discovered my limitations. I will post this in the downloads for those who want a large scale waterline...

[Rikhardr]

Almost completed the 1:250 scale model and looking forward to building the 1:72 scale size! Please let us know when it is uploaded ~ Thanks.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/RichBohlman/CSSPSsm.jpg

I never finished the hull. Discovered my limitations. I will post this in the downloads for those who want a large scale waterline...

[rebelatsea]

They are great, but sadly, research let them down badly with the Arkansas and the Texas.

[Rikhardr]

They are great, but sadly, research let them down badly with the Arkansas and the Texas.

Yes Sir, I do agree. I use paper card models in my display at living history events to help explain about the Confederate Naval forces during the early 1860's. They work well as a lead in for me to talk about Lincoln's War against the South. The average person in the U.S. today thinks that the total war was fought over slavery and the north saints but the South sinners.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/RichBohlman/CSSPalmettoState.jpg

[Rikhardr]

Has this been posted yet? If so, Please where? Thanks!

I never finished the hull. Discovered my limitations. I will post this in the downloads for those who want a large scale waterline...

[SJPONeill]

Patience...

[Rikhardr]

Two of my recently completed models.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/RichBohlman/completed.jpg

[ct ertz]

I am still compiling parts, pages, labels and directions... This is a big project. I will post assoon as I get something build-able put together...

[SJPONeill]

Thanks for the update, CT...no hurry - we all know that it will be worth the wait...

Simon