Charlemagne, French Pre-Dreadnought BB, 1:250, Scratchbuild

[Golden Bear]

I really don't have any build to show right now, but I can show the progress of the model. I've completed the basic structure and am doing the detailing one section at a time. I've done the fore deck and am almost done with the hull sides. Contrary to the coloring of the model that I am showing, I am planning on building it as black/buff. If I don't run out of energy I will try to color it both in black/buff and in grey for release. It is a long way away from being even close to release since I'll need to figure out clever ways to make assembly easier - personally I don't need joining tabs and I butt join the rolled barrels and such. I doubt that I can make the artwork as nice as John's but it should look nice.

Thanks to Renaud I can put in much of the interior detailing (backsides of bridges and such) with high confidence. His unselfishness and energy with sharing photos and plans is the single most important factor in allowing me to attempt to make this a sharable kit. He is an outstanding example of our wonderful global community of card modeling.

Enough blathering. Here it is. I'll be working on the aft bridge today...


Carl the one-handed designer

[Greg S.]

Carl:

Looks excellent. But what am I looking at? Is it a card model or a CGI? I like it a lot either way. You've captured the look of the ship very well.

[Golden Bear]

Hey Greg, it is only a screen capture from Rhino of my progress in designing.

[Greg S.]

GB: Hey, it's still great! Your skills at Rhino are really improving. When you complete the designwork, the photos will be worth collecting as well as the model.

Renaud: Thanks for providing GB with the references so that I can follow this. I also am a fan of French predreadnoughts.

[B-Manic]

Looks nice - another challenging hull shape?

[Stev0]

Looks amazing GoldenBear. I gotta try the new rhino out.

[Barry]

Looks great and your typing has improved by leaps and bounds already........must admit I do envy that rhino program look forward to the build... how about a dazzle scheme on it.

[Golden Bear]

Barry, no dazzle camo yet. I'll work on that. I can actually use my right hand to type now as long as I don't overdo it and don't take it out of the sling.

Here is the state of my work on the aft bridge, not quite complete:

[Don Boose]

Try as I might, I have been unable to find a photograph of the Charlemage, or any other French pre-dreadnought, in dazzle paint.

The best I could come up with was a WWII photo of the French cruiser Gloire. http://gotouring.com/razzledazzle/articles/dazzle3.html

But with a little imagination . . .

Don B.

[Gharbad]

Wow, that dazzle camo is crazy stuff.
I've never seen it or heard of it before.

[Greg S.]

Barry: French bb did not sport dazzle camouflage in WWI. They were painted in a very monotonous gray. The only other option is the black hull/light gray (Atlantic or Channel fleets) or buff (Mediterreanean) upperworks version of the early 1900s that GB is talking about.

GB: The detail in your second drawing continues to impress. You should think about becoming a naval CGI illustrator. You drawings are better than those in a CGI book I bought in Japan during my recent trip there.

[archangel1]

Wow, that dazzle camo is crazy stuff.
I've never seen it or heard of it before.

Hi, Kuba!

Actually, dazzle camo was quite prevelant during both wars, ranging from the subtle to the blatant! Even the liners were often painted in outrageous schemes. Here's an excellent build article by Jim Baumann, who took JSC's 1/400 RMS Mauretania (which apparently comes with the dazzle scheme) and used it as a pattern to recreate it in plastic in 1/600, using Airfix's kit. Of course, he also added about 2000(!) figures on deck! It really is something!

Cheers,
Mike :)

[dansls1]

Great looking start there GB!

[-Jim G]

Here's an excellent build article by Jim Baumann

Try this link http://tinyurl.com/269aac

[archangel1]

Try this link http://tinyurl.com/269aac

Sorry about that! That's twice I forgot to include links in messages, in spite of having the link ready to Paste! I was awake, too, honest!

Cheers,
Mike :o

[Golden Bear]

Well, Barry, I got the joke.:) I'm slaving over detailed light armament to annoy builders but make Renaud very happy!



Carl

[Gharbad]

Sorry about that! That's twice I forgot to include links in messages, in spite of having the link ready to Paste! I was awake, too, honest!

Cheers,
Mike :o

I wonder if they included the paint scheme in the ticket price... they probably could've without complaints :p

[CMDRTED]

Man I leave for a few months and you have Rhino skills down! And you're doing it 1 armed! I might as well finish building my bike and just sit back and watch, great job!

[Golden Bear]

Hey Ted! Actually I've found Rhino very easy to pick up. It is like many other 3D CAD programs, only easier in some ways. Now I need to use it a bunch to make the expense worthwhile. I think of it as an entertainment program, sort of like Halo would be to teenagers.;)

I spent all day yesterday on the light armament. Here are the 100mm and 47mm guns on the aft structure. Somebody will curse me for these detailed items some day!


Carl

[Clashster]

Looking great, Carl! Seems you are making Rhino pay off... Watching you design your ships is making me think more about trying something myself!

[Golden Bear]

Here is a closer up view of the 47mm gun...

[Gil]

Hi Carl,

Nice to see the Rhino Smote do their thing...,

One of the main attractions of this genre of ship is the armaments clutter. It's from a totally different time and before the realities that the Battle of Jutland brought.

One last item; the Frenchy, she looks a comer...,

+Gil

[archangel1]

I spent all day yesterday on the light armament. Here are the 100mm and 47mm guns on the aft structure. Somebody will curse me for these detailed items some day!


Carl

Okay! Curse you, Carl! She's looking good. Waiting in anticipation of her slipping down the ways!

Cheers,
Mike :D

[Oliver Weiss]

Carl, it looks like you're really comfortable with Rhino now - why not try for the underwater hull? It's not *that* difficult, I know you can do it!

here's Redoutable as a teaser :)



Cheers,


Oliver

[Golden Bear]

Hey Oliver. I've thought about that but I'm really not a full hull person. I've considered doing it for the folks that are but I am leaning away from doing it. I don't see that it is de rigeur for ship kits since there are lots of examples of both types out there. We'll see how I feel towards the end. It would not be that difficult to model.


Carl

[Oliver Weiss]

That's definitely true, Carl, and many people prefer the waterline look because it mirrors what you would see in real life. If seen with a full hull, the proportions of many ships can even look decidedly odd.

Nonethelesss, so many interesting things are happening below the waterline that I always prefer the option to also build the underwater hull. Perhaps you'll offer it as an after-market part?

Cheers,


Oliver

[Golden Bear]

I've been busy with lots of design things that I have not shown. I'm still weeks away from risking contact with cardstock and knife however. Anyway, here is the 3D model of the 13.86cm gun. I'll bet people are looking forward to the approximately 30 parts it will take to assemble!! Good thing that there are only two. Maybe Ted will do a beta of the gun for me when I have the energy to finish the painted file.



Carl

[Don Boose]

It's beautiful, Carl! I hope your arm recovers soon so that you can begin turning these superb graphics into an actual ship.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

Thanks for the hopeful thought, Don!

Here's another shot of things... just because.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Excellent!

What are the covered chutes along the hull? Scuttles? Scuppers?

Don

[Barry]

Good to see you still working Carl looks beautiful as well

[Clashster]

Looking good, Carl! Hope the healing goes well, I want to see that gun built!!!

[Greg S.]

GB: Wow! Nice work there, guy. You got talent!

[CMDRTED]

Looks Great, as said before, a Rhino master as well! I'd be honored to do a beta of the gun, my mountainbike project as well as the Jak build are on temporary hold, due to lack of parts andf a little enthusiasm, but for you I'll dust off the bench!

[B-Manic]

That is one fine looking design. Lots of small detail. It will take a while to build though.

[Don Boose]

I doubt that I will ever try to build a French pre-dreadnought, but that's the wonderful thing about this Forum: we can see these wonderful models and, in some cases, watch them take shape in the designer's mind and then on the work table -- and learn a few tricks along the way.

Kudos to Carl and the others who are willing to share their secrets and to let us watch the creative process.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

That is one fine looking design. Lots of small detail. It will take a while to build though.

Y'know, I've been worrying about that. Have you ever had a model that would be sweet to build but you just don't have the inclination for all the little nitty details? Well, I have - not with Halinski BTW. On the one hand I have the Kartonbau folks who will crucify me for not detailing the model and on the other hand I have the normal joe who doesn't particularly care if the decks are crowned and the guns are perfectly detailed. I would like to have the time to give options on the fiddly parts like the guns - and those wretched ship's boats - so that people with other things in their lives can make a nice model without losing months of building time on details that nobody but forum readers will appreciate. I'll see what I can do.

Don, thanks for looking in at least! You know a lot of stuff about ships and it is good to have expertise like that looking over your shoulder.

Ted - You'll probably be sorry that you said that!! There are three different designs of small ships guns so far and I have to ponder which to render first. There will be a fourth design when I get around to Gatling guns...

For the 13.86 cm guns I could not find any good photos of the actual pieces. I ended up by using a period drawing that Renaud supplied - thank you again! - and stuffing it into the shield. I had no good drawings in detail of the shields so I used what I had and then tweaked and scaled until they looked correct.

I'm off to make the main tops today and possibly the upper tops and finish the masts. I have some serious thinking to do about the anchor equipment on the fore deck since again I have only diagrams made before the ship was built and partial pictures of the situation. Naturally the several diagrams that I do have to work from have offsets in different directions and I need to synthesize the whole thing. I wonder if I'll actual have the stones to finish this thing as a kit.

Hmm, do one of the pollsters feel like running a poll to help me out? Something that asks about the level of detail preferred in a SHIP model? Choices would include:
- Representational but leaning towards simpler
- Completely detailed
- Completely detailed but I don't want to use all the detail but I like to have it
- I've never built a ship kit but I might if you did ___________ to the design.

Thanks to anybody that feels like helping with this.



Carl

[archangel1]

Hmm, do one of the pollsters feel like running a poll to help me out? Something that asks about the level of detail preferred in a SHIP model? Choices would include:
- Representational but leaning towards simpler
- Completely detailed
- Completely detailed but I don't want to use all the detail but I like to have it
- I've never built a ship kit but I might if you did ___________ to the design.

Thanks to anybody that feels like helping with this.



Carl

At first thought, my choice would be completely detailed. That would give you the best representation of the original. However, there is something to your third suggestion. If the kit is designed as completely detailed but also includes simplified versions of the more finicky items like some of the smaller guns and such, that would also have a lot of appeal. In this case, one could use the simpler items until one had the skills necessary to build the more complicated pieces and still have a good replica.

Cheers,
Mike :)

[Barry]

My five cents worth. Most ships can be represented in a quite simple fashion as the medium of card allows for printing a pretty good representation of a lot of detail. Alternate schemes can be produced and added as separate pages to pick from at will. It is not too great an effort if you designed a highly detailed model because you are subtracting from the original design. You can more or less tell from the 3d representation as to whether the current detail level will give a representation of a particular ship. I like the choice of a full or waterline hull.

Basically I would like to design models for beginners and that include cheats to allow the hull etc to be cut short/extended, which can be added to for a fully detailed model within the kit. As "web kits" are printed in many countries with different paper grading it is almost essential. Theres nothing worse than being a mm out and feeling totally deflated.

I probably think this way because I am not good enough to produce the total accuracy required (but then there are horror stories from the professional world too)

[Golden Bear]

You two are making more work for me.;)

Barry, I plan on including everything within the same download for just that reason. It's a pain to rescale if something is off and many folks don't have the technology or inclination. For that reason I'm also going to put in a separate page with color swatches that can be printed out at the time of the main printing if desired. My thought is that it can be used for touch up and additional detailing for people that want it... I use color swatches like this all the time but maybe I'm just an outlier.



Carl

[Don Boose]

I think extra color swatches are very useful. They seem to frequently be supplied with ships and some armor models, but not so often in the case of airplanes. I have sometimes found it necessary to print out an extra copy just to get the matching colors for touch up work or modifications.

Don B.

[Barry]

I should draw diagrams not use words.

The black lines outside the hull side show where the calculated ideal join is. The extra strip takes advantage of the fact the side at that point is virtually parallel. If you have it wrong at this point you can trim it to your length not put a piece in.

[Don Boose]

Brilliant!

[shrike]

Count me in on the extra colour swatches. Nothing like sneezing a finely detailed widget off behind the bookcase and having nothing to replace it with, without printing a whole new page, or spending more time than the part takes trying to match colours from scan to screen to print!

I like thetrim to length idea. Any suggestions on a universal non-linguistic symbol for it? Or is it better to learn to write "Trim to size" in as many differnt languages as possible?<G> Perhaps paper modeling could be the final nudge to get Esperanto breathing again <rbG>

[Golden Bear]

Barry, I'm actually using that on a couple places on the hull sides. Also, I've been doing it with the decks and will again. We'll see how it all comes out in the end. It seems a lot like a roomfull of clocks that I'm trying to get to chime at exactly the same moment.

[ringmaster]

Print it out at 8.3 percent and it could be a game piece

http://www.wtj.com/games/battlefleet_1900/

[Golden Bear]

Print it out at 8.3 percent and it could be a game piece

http://www.wtj.com/games/battlefleet_1900/

That was my original idea with the 1:400 models. I thought they could be shrunk down to 1:600 or even 1:120 for gamers. I don't know that there is much of a market for tiny paper models like that.


Carl

[Golden Bear]

Still plugging along. Here is an overall view of things showing masts and large boat cranes as well as spiffed up funnels. Folks will have fun (heh) with the boat cranes. There are still at least two more sets of boat cranes to put in. I'm close enough to the end that I've made a checklist - yippee!! Maybe I'll make the boats now. I've counted as many as 14 in photos with an average of around 12. Oh yeah, that will be good fun. Ugh.


Carl

[Clashster]

Very cool! More little boats and cranes! We know ya love 'em!

[Golden Bear]

I'm struggling on with the design. Lots o' little things to take care of. I've added the big cranes with tackle and three different kinds of smaller cranes. The "treuils" or small steam motors are in process as are the boats.

[member_3]

I think your designs may be even more awe-inspiring than your builds! Please consider a full length image similar to the last one posted when the design is finalized. That would be a piece of art in itself! I guess I'm thinking of the "Golden Bear Models" series of wallpapers for our computers. :)

[Golden Bear]

Hmm. That's an idea I had not thought about. I could clean up some the artifacts of the software and make it look nice and clean and then post it as a large download somewhere. I need to shrink the screen capture a lot to get it to fit into the thread.

[member_3]

That would be great, Carl! Maybe if I had something like that as a wallpaper it would keep me motivated...<<grin>>

[dansls1]

You know - I was thinking the same thing as Ron when I was just looking at the picture, then I read ahead and saw what he posted.
I can't wait to see this come together in paper!

[Golden Bear]

OK, I've actually taken knife in hand for the first time in two months. I can only hope that I can continue. Every cut hurts me.

Here is the piccie first of the screen capture and then two of the build with a pin for scale reference. This is one of the four (visible) donkey engines, termed "treuils" en francais that exist on the Charlemagne. Are folks really going to want to build this ship? ... other than me, that is.


Carl

[Barry]

Yep you are the best I should think your eyes hurt more than your arms beautiful job

[Don Boose]

Carl -- It's incredible how clean those tiny little "treuils" are!

I've been trying to put together a VERY simple boiler and engine for a 1/100 scale 1875 Swedish steam launch (inadvertently blown up from a David Hathaway 1/250 freebie -- it's a long story that I hope to post with photos soon) and I had a dickins of a time. Then to see these little beauties is a really humbling experience.

More! More!

Don B.

[rlwhitt]

My those things are tiny! Superb job and good to see you back at it - I hope you are able to continue. But don't make yourself worse off - pace yourself!

[Johnny]

I just ditto Rick! Thats really some tiny stuff!!

[Greg S.]

GB: Well, I'm flabbergasted by the donkey engine you made! The level of detail is inconceivable to me. I assume it it 1/200, but still....It looks tiny! Tiny, but still realistic. It gives me a headache. You da man!

[Clashster]

Wow! Great start, but let's not hurt yourself! I love your models you are designing and would be interested in them!

[Golden Bear]

Well, my shoulder feels so good right now that I am itching to be more active. I figure that a little bit of building is OK. No problems yet but I'm being careful.

The model scale is 1:250 and the whole thing fits easily within a 1cm cube. I did a second version last night to see if I could punch up visibility of the details. I'll take a picture when I get some time. My return to work has robbed me of the many glorious free hours that I had every day while I sat in a painkiller induced daze. Maybe I SHOULD hope that my left shoulder needs surgery so that I can get a few more weeks for model designing. In any case I'll be taking vacation next week - Thanksgiving for those of us here in the colonies - and can hopefully get closer to finishing the 3D work and get some more things laid out and colored.

On a completely different subject, I made a reference in an unrelated forum (no longer attended by yours truly) to "antipodean members." I was chided for insulting people who did not know what the word meant and assumed it to be something rude (it isn't). Do folks here know what it means? Just curious, that's me.


Carl

[dansls1]

Given your context, I would assume you meant members who have diametrically opposed viewpoints on something - likely the topic of the forum.

Jumping back to a question you asked - is anybody interested in building this model / your model designs. In the grand scheme of things, I have to admit that the ships you are designing don't hold any real 'romantic' or visual appeal to me. That being said, 1) I love seeing you display your design and building skills as you share this with us and 2) because of the skill involved in designing these kits, it's possible at some point in the future I would attempt to build one of these ships if they were available. It would be based on testing myself with an extremely detailed (but I know well designed and buildable) model. Almost 'modelling for the sake of modelling'.

[Don Boose]

As my Antipodean friends would say, "She'll be right, Mate!" (although they would pronounce it more like "Mite" -- to an Antipodean, a "bison" is something you wash your fice in).

Which reminds me of the story about the British Eighth Army soldier fighting in the Western Desert who was knocked unconscious by an artillery explosion and taken to an Australian field hospital.

When he woke up, he was totally disoriented and when he saw the nursing sister in white silhouetted against the sun and glowing like an angel, he said, "Have I come here to die?"

And she said, "No, Mite. You came here yesterdie."

Don B.
(Who has spent a lot of time with Antipodeans in Korea.)

[CharlieC]

There was a book published in the 1970s called - "Let stalk strian" - all you needed to know about communicating with antipodeans. Although communicating with N'Zealanders (other antipodeans) can be difficult 'cos they don't talk Strian.

N'worries,

Charlie

[Golden Bear]

I and my friends from the larger antipodean land mass loved it when our Kiwi friend wanted breakfast... something like "stik and iggs."

[Don Boose]

And then there's dispela Melanesian pidgin.

[shrike]

Toktok long tiktik bot bilong pepa

http://www.june29.com//HLP/lang/pidgin.html (http://www.june29.com//HLP/lang/pidgin.html) Port Moresby Pidgin dictionary

[cardmodeler]

Utway arry ooyay ayingsay?

-Igpay Atinlay

[shrike]

Just bringing things back on topic<G>

[Golden Bear]

I've started some cutting... not at the pace that Barry chugs through his ship, I'm afraid. It is a start anyway. Here is the eggcrate with prototype hull sides laid out... also the poor little 1:600 Masséna, dwarfed by her younger companion.

No glue applied so far. Lots of head scratching to come.


Carl

[...bad habit of posting and then remembering the photo...]

[Golden Bear]

Here on the right is the Mk II version of the donkey engine. The details actually show better if I don't excise all the details.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Bon cieux! Quelle splendide cuirassé! Que incroyablement petit âne moteurs et détaillées! La construction procède rapidement et habilement. C'est magnifique!

Don B.

[B-Manic]

Here on the right is the Mk II version of the donkey engine. The details actually show better if I don't excise all the details.


Carl

They are both very impressive. I guess it all depends on how much an individual enjoys microsurgery. My wife considers my time spent on such tiny details a form of OCD.

[Barry]

Looking good Carl you seem to be rattling along nicely. You are speeding up and I am slowing down the rain and cold are here again. Looking forward to more little gems.

[Golden Bear]

No no, Barry, not at all speeding up. I felt itchy to build something and picked something straightforward. I tested the shoulders and am finding that the left one is also on the blink... pain during the build. I'm praying that the right will recover, with care. The Doc examined the left shoulder and gave me a worried look when I asked for assurance that it is only muscle pain that I am feeling. He prescribed a short course of steroids to reduce inflammation and said something about, "Let's try to get keep the left shoulder under control until the right can take up the load again." It didn't sound too promising to me.

BTW, I'm leaning towards NOT worrying about attempting to make this commercial. I think that I'll be happier just trying to get it built at this point. I am not enough of a computer artist to make it good enough. Besides, I am cheating in ways that the European crowd would not approve of - for instance, I will not apply the slight bowing on the couple of decks that show it... I cannot get it to resolve cleanly in the 3D model and am afraid that it would look like hash when built. I am certain that they are the only likely market in truth. I doubt that I'll disappoint more than three or four people anywhere by this.

And yes, I believe that it is a form of OCD. By hiding in the pattern of detail and building I can attempt to shield myself from some of the things hiding in the corners of my world. This is one tiny area where I can exert control and sometimes mastery... and unlike the rest of the sphere I inhabit, there are people who will pat me on the back and tell me I'm OK and sometimes even a little better.

Et Don, vous êtes bien amables.

[Clashster]

The donkey engines look cool! and the frame work looks great.... seems like a lot of cutting for your poor shoulders! Love to see your progress, but we have patience!

[Greg S.]

GB: Good to see your work again. The donkey engine gives me a headache with all its details. The Massena sure looks nice! Sorry about the shoulders. Seems like you are working with a lot of pain. Hope that it improves with time. Charlemagne is not my favorite French bb, but I am very interested in what you will make of her. I've had good drawings of Gaulois (sister ship) but have not tried building it. I like everything you do, including your airplanes. Charlemagne is going to be big after the Massena, huh?

[Golden Bear]

Hey Greg! Yes she is much larger than the little ships that I've done previously. The idea is that I can stick on all the detail I want without too much difficulty. I agree that the Charlemagne is not the most interesting of the pretty French ships - the class of 1890 offers a lot more. However, she and the Gaulois are almost identical and between the two of them there are plenty of available drawings. I had decided to attempt something that could be built with good documentation for this larger scale attempt. I think that she will be nice enough nonetheless.

The only differences that between Charlemagne and Gaulois that I have so far discovered (and that I remember at the moment) are the lack of a midline binnacle on the upper bridge and some slight difference in placement of a couple of portholes. The Saint-Louis is much different however despite basic similarities in size and layout. She was built in a different yard than the former two which I speculate accounts for the difference - also probably the dawning realization of French ship designers that the large superstructures were not so good for narrow and small displacement ships when the wind rose and the seas grew large.

I'm struggling with making a black hull that shows details in black (!!!) as the many photos of such ships show. I don't want to fall back on the S&S technique of using white as the highlight on the black hull since, except in certain situations of lighting, this does not appear in photos. We shall see. I'll be gluing the frame and attempting a fitting of the hull sides later...


Carl

[Barry]

Keep going old mate gradually you will learn to use as few muscles as possible can't explain it but sooner or later it happens the human body is very adaptable hardest thing is to get as relaxed as possible. Don't laugh might be an idea to get a good physio to check out how you sit doing things.

Models still look great.

[Greg S.]

GB: Regarding black: I recommend just using black for the hull without tampering with the color. The French did actually use black after all when they painted their ships in the late 19th & early 20th century prior to WWI. Oftentimes in historical photos this meant that all detail was obscured. However, you can overcome this problem by tinkering with your photos by making them brighter on your computer camera software. On my last black hulled ship I found that the detail can be shown this way.

BTW I had trouble gluing black parts to black parts. I was going blind for a while until I discovered that I could see better by illuminating with a second light source.

I think Charlemagne will look better with a black hull & white or bluff or light gray upperworks rather than the overall gray of WWI.

In your new larger scale, I think you will be encountering greater difficulties with bending cardboard to match the contours of the tumblehome and bow and stern curves. I know you will somehow overcome all these obstacles but I look forward to seeing how you solve those problems. BTW, I admire your ambition to work in extra detail on this model. This could be a very long construction. Good for us, hard on you!

Good to see you back at the workbench although the CGI stuff is also great!

[Oliver Weiss]

I'm struggling with making a black hull that shows details in black (!!!) as the many photos of such ships show.


Carl, I had the same problem with the Livadia and the Ross Winans. I guess the trick is that a black hull isn't really *black* when seen in daylight and from some distance. Going forward (I have a few black ones in the pipeline) I'm using a very dark grey, just light enough to allow black shadows and lighter grey textures.

Cheers,


Oliver

[Renaud]

http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,2863.15.html

[jimkrauzlis]

Quite incredible work on the donkey engines, Carl!

I admire all of you folks that can design models, it takes a lot of time, dedication and prodigious use of the grey matter to work out such details and get them to look like the real thing in 3D...that, in itself, is a wonderful talent. I do hope you can continue to favor us with your work, it's truly a joy to see you put them together. Personally, I love the detail you incorporate into your designs, it is quite outstanding.

Hang in there, mate!

Cheers!
Jim

[Golden Bear]

Carl, I had the same problem with the Livadia and the Ross Winans. I guess the trick is that a black hull isn't really *black* when seen in daylight and from some distance. Going forward (I have a few black ones in the pipeline) I'm using a very dark grey, just light enough to allow black shadows and lighter grey textures.

Cheers,


Oliver

Thanks for giving me a boost here, Oliver. As I look at photos, most of them show the detail as darker than the hull... meaning that the hull may be black but does not appear as black. Greg, I've made a version in black with thin white highlighting. I must admit that I like the black but it looks more "real" to me with a dark grey with black detailing. We'll see how it turns out. I'm not committed either way yet. Maybe John, Master of Airplane Coloring, can figure out the combination for me (are you reading, John?).

In terms of progress, there will not be much to show for a bit because I really need to get the hull and the joining decks to be just right before moving on to all the fun detailing.



Carl

[Barry]

An interesting treatment of Massena by Jim Bauman maybe it will offer a few ideas.

http://kartonist.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=1362&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=1

[Golden Bear]

Here's what I've been doing.

I'm a little off from some posts around here. BTW I am not an idiot, all evidence despite, evidently, things perceived as contrary by other folks.

[B-Manic]

Looking good. Can't wait to see more. I find the look of these old girls very interesting.

[Don Boose]

It's gorgeous, Carl. I love watching this ship take shape.

Don B.

[Clashster]

Wonderful craftsmanship, Carl! Love looking at your past accomplishments at the same time too!

[dansls1]

Great looking deck!

[Golden Bear]

You have probably all noticed this already but my build technique is somewhat backwards of the traditional for this. I've been pondering the problems of attempting to get so many pieces to fit together all at the same time in just the right orientation and whatnot - also many of these supposedly "base" pieces need to have details build into them before they get attached.

By building the decks, casements and other short hull side pieces together in one assembly separate from the hull sides, I can break the build up into manageable pieces. Now I can put the casement guns and shields in easily while have the inside and underneath parts of the thing available to me. I didn't show this, but I put some flat stiffeners under wobbly parts of the fore and aft decks to keep them flat through the process.

Also, the camera makes the decking appear more reddish that it actually is. I'll need some real sunlight - not likely at this moment in the Willamette Valley - to show the actual colors. The holes in the decks are places where separately built subassemblies of the down stairways will fit in neatly.


Carl

[Greg S.]

GB: Your construction method is quite unorthodox. I don't see how you manage sometimes. The casemates look very promising and the decks do look good. Glad to see more progress pictures.

[Golden Bear]

Maybe unorthodox but it seems simpler somehow. For the next model I'm going to build the entire superstructure separately with internal frames and everything. It will then be keyed into the hull structure.

Another benefit of this is that I can put off attaching the hull sides for as long as I desire... reducing the damage from handling that always seems to occur with my big mitts. Perhaps I can eliminate the "rib shadowing" even... and don't even mention foam to me. Brrrr.

The camera misbehaved and this came out a little dark. These are the eight casement guns. Four are complete and four have a lot of work left. When complete, I will fit them from the inside and then glue on spindles from underneath so that they can turn. If I was any good I would have made them elevate too. I figure that life is too short to go chasing down that particular rabbit hole.


Carl

[dansls1]

The Lutjens that I started from WHV had you put the main deck on, had tabs on the side like this and then you put the hull on around the formers. so it doesn't seem that odd to me.

[Don Boose]

Carl, a lot of what you do is indistinguishable from magic to me, so I can't always tell what is unorthodox, but the end result is always outstanding.

Don B.

[Barry]

Very professional model Carl like the design ideas. Professional looking box too....... mine says low fat spread on the side and it's plastic wonder if that says anything.

[Golden Bear]

Thanks all. I have more to take pictures of if I can get the camera to behave (read: operator stupidity). I'm tempted to take a real kit and try some things with it to make the build easier... or maybe I should just stay focused on what I'm doing.:rolleyes:


Carl

[Golden Bear]

Here's a shot of the central casement guns finished and installed. It looks like I need to tweak the barrel of the one on the right now that I see it in Fault Finding Mode.

[Golden Bear]

... and here is one of the down stairs inserts. It is formed by making a little open topped box with color on the inside. Then trim out the top piece with the individual holes for the stairs. Cut the stairs pieces and then... well, I sort of cheated for the railings. I drew up pieces that fold over... but they are impossible to cut out and I didn't want white paper showing. I've been playing with Barry's solder method for making my own railings but cannot seem to make it work without blobbing... clearly need to brush up my techniqe there. Anyway, I ended up using paper railings. A while ago I bought some different ones to try out as part of an order from GPM. I took the railing and doused it with super glue to stiffen it because there is high potential for these little assemblies to take an accidental knock.

[rlwhitt]

That staircase looks fabulous!

[Don Boose]

As a certain Senior Master Model Builder said recently in another thread: Yoicks! (Which, I think, loosely translates as "How in the dickins does he do it?!")

Many thanks for the explanation, Carl. I am about to try the application of some paper railings soon and will try the Superglue approach.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

Don, as a heads up - before you learn it for yourself - don't just slather on the SG, but sort of trace the railing with a corner of the brush. It will sort of blob and make the pieces too fat and can even bridge the gaps if you aren't neat with it. That's probably gratuitous advice for an old hand like you. To continue with my gratuity, do both sides while you are at it... and don't glue it to your fingers (I regularly violate all this advice, BTW and wind up with blobby, bridged pieces stuck to my thumbs or worksurface).


Carl

[Greg S.]

I also think the down stairs look very good. I can hardly see them!

[Gil]

Stairs is Landlubber talk for Ladders...,

+Gil

[Golden Bear]

ACK!!! Would you believe that, despite careful checking before building, I built three of these LADDER assemblies BACKWARDS??? It turns out that the set in the front are the reverse of the three in the middle!!!! And I started with the middle ones. ACK-ACK-ACK!!

Almost two nights of work. Oh woe.


Carl

[Gil]

Carl,

I know some people who have built two left wings for their homebuilt aircraft..., Measure twice and cut twice cause it generally won't fit the first time..., Is this a form of Geometric Dislexia?

+Gil

P.S. The ladders are beautifully executed work..., I'm beginning to worry about you lad...,

[Don Boose]

Carl -- I love this thread! Thanks for the earlier advice on application of CA. I can always use all the advice I can get.

And after Gil's ladder comment, I can't resist saying that if the stairs can't be saved, just throw them out the little round window in the side of the boat.

Don ("Clean sweep down fore and aft; do not throw trash into the scuppers or over the fantail!") B.


PS: When I was doing research for my amphib book, I came across the after-action reports on the 1949 2d Infantry Division amphibious exercise MIKI. One of the Army comments was to the effect that climbing down nets into the landing craft was difficult and dangerous. The writer recommended either the installation of escalators or cutting doors in the side of the attack transports at the waterline, so the troops could easily step into the LCVPs.

[dansls1]

If it were a kit you could blame it on the designers lack of clear enough instructions, but in this case - well that leads right back to you ;)

It's one of those things that nobody would ever know but you - well and now us that you posted it. Are you going to rebuild or go with what you've got?

[Golden Bear]

Oh, I will rebuild them. It turns out that only 2 of the three are incorrect... the one under the forward structure - where, incidently it will be nearly invisible - doesn't need rebuilding. Wouldn't you think that all the transverse criss-cross ladders would have the some orientation? Sigh. At least I hadn't started on the other three yet. I took a night away from ladders to start working on a main turret. Funny how much easier it is to roll gun barrels at 1:250 rather than 1:600. The turrets do seem huge after 1:600.



Carl

[Royaloakmin]

Carl, good to see you cutting paper again. Also good to see you working in 1/250 scale. I hope you will reconsider finding a way to make this availble, even in a rough form. No one else is likely to have the courage to tackle these most fascinating ships.

regards

[Golden Bear]

Hi Fred. It is nice to know that you are watching. The difficulty would not be that the kit would be "rough." Everything will be nicely fitted and colored by the end. The difficulties that I don't want to be crippled by are:
1) Making instructions
2) It will be a lot of work for only a dozen people worldwide... half of whom will complain that I did something "wrong"
3) I don't want to worry about making the ship buildable for everybody. I generally don't put glue tabs on anything for instance.
In short, it won't be worth the aggravation. Sorry. I would feel frustrated in your shoes.

Anyway, I've been plugging along without much apparent progress. There have been procedural things that I have had to think through. But I did build one of the main turrets, so here are some pictures of it. It pivots but will not elevate. The openings in the turret are really small and it seemed to me to be too much trouble for guns that would go up and down about 4mm at the tips. I had a problem at the back of the turret and thus will never photograph that area for public display.

Also, I am displeased with how the deck colors changed after being sprayed. I don't mind the bright yellow-buff so much, but the decks were not intended to be this dark. When I was testing the colors I did it without spraying. Now I am committed since I don't want to redo the casement guns. Live and learn.

[Greg S.]

Carl:

Your railings problems remind me of several instances of buildering blundersI have committed over the years.

The most memorable was the fiasco of the hause pipes on my HMS Erin. I had completed a model of the HMS Erin and was showing my wife how closely it mirrored the drawings I had used when I noticed a problem. I noticed that the hause pipes pattern was reversed compared with the drawings. During the construction process, I had turned the deck upside down and used the wrong side. I had just spent 3 very intense months building the model, which was and is one of the best built models I had ever built except for the big mistake. I was sick. What to do? Should I leave it in its defective state or should I attempt to effect a fix? Although I was pessimistic about the outcome, I decided to try to fix the problem. Using an exacto knife, I cut out the focsle up to the shearwater and replaced it with a new focsle. Amazingly, the old focsle came out without tearing or warping adjacent parts although I had to cut it away from the sides of the hull, the heavy cardboard deck, and the formers beneath. The repair worked much better than I had hoped so that the repair work cannot be seen even on close inspection.

Thank goodness my model was cardboard, which is such a flexible and forgiving medium.

Anyway, sorry for this long digression. Looking forward to more of your progress posts.

[Royaloakmin]

Carl, build to satisfy yourself. We will watch and enjoy the fruits of your skill. No complaints here.

regards

[Royaloakmin]

Also, have you considered doing one of the smaller ship like the 'flatirons," Valmy and Jemappes? Still the distinctive French design and 1/3rd the work.

regards

[Don Boose]

I dunno, Carl. The deck color looks entirely plausible to me. I don't have any period photos to make a comparison, but there is nothing artificial about the shade and aesthetically, it goes well with the buff of the turret. To my eye, Charlemagne, he marches magnificently.

Aloha, Greg -- Have you posted photos of your Erin anywhere? I'd love to see them.

Has anyone ever built a model of the Agincourt? I have a 1/1250 model of that remarkable ship with seven -- count 'em -- seven turrets (named after the days of the week). The most ever in any warship, I think. http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h63000/h63198.jpg

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

Fred, I have some nice pictures of these ships but couldn't find the plans. That doesn't mean that I won't work on them but I'm going cautiously from known to unknown here... that is why I began with the rather staid, compared to earlier French ships, Charlemagne for a first detailed effort. There are lots of plans and pictures. I'm gathereing resources for a try at Charles Martel possibly next but there are many questions.

Don, when I was about 13 years old I read a book about the Agincourt and it was the beginning of my interest in early metal warships. You have a model? Can we see it? I'll make space for it here in this thread if you want to...

[Renaud]

I have the plans of these ships......

[Golden Bear]

:)Renaud! Those might be handy some day. I'm still hoping for Charles Martel next though.

[Don Boose]

Carl --

My Agincourt is a 1/1250 Navis die-cast. I'll take some photos and post them.

Greg has also built really fine scratchbuilt 1/550 model of the Agincourt, which is at the Steel Navy site: http://steelnavy.com/AgincourtGShoda.htm

Don

[Golden Bear]

Following advice from Renaud, I am recoloring the turret and upperworks. Here is not very nicely done representation of what the new color will look like. It is supposed to be like wet linen or wet burlap or something. This color is actually the same that I used on the Hoche but with a substantially better printer. I'm finding that color selection involves a lot of guessing and trial and error. It is not simply the color on the screen and the shift it takes with a printer... it is also guessing and testing how it looks after spraying and also my feeling that I should go a little dark to account for likely fading. Now, my inkset has been tested to have the best lightfastness of any out there with over 120 years under glass. "Under glass?" So how does that translate to "under clear matte spray?" I have some experience that says that fading is vastly improved with the spray but I think that I need to be cautious. OK, I'm just blathering... but I've been bouncing off walls with this topic. I think I have a path forward now.

[Don Boose]

Interesting! Not knowing much about French warships, I had just assumed the upper works color was buff, like unto the Great White Fleet. Now I've gone back to look at the Hoche photos and, by golly, it IS more grayish than brownish -- more like linen than the ochre color I had imagined, although not as gray as the Charlemagne turret in this new photo.

Keep blathering, Carl! It's all interesting and enlightening.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

Yes, Don, that is NOT quite the color that I am going to use. The one in the lower right labeled "Hoche" is the one I'm doing a trial with now. My second choice is the one at the top of the third column from the left.

[Don Boose]

Thanks for the further info, Carl. The two colors look pretty close to me. Within the normal variations of fading, varying light conditions, different batches of paint, and so on. The difference is probably clearer to you with the actual color chips in front of you.

[Greg S.]

GB: You bring up some interesting issues. Gosh, I would have guessed the color in the upper left would have been the closest match. I guess I will have to go back and look at my photo references. What evidence does Raimund cite, can you say? If I ever build my Gaulois, I think I'll build her in WWI gray and avoid the color issues instead of the buff & black scheme.

Also, I've never used a mat spray, believe it or not. However, I did notice some significant fading in one of my models the other day. Do you have any recommendations as to nondistortional sprays?

I've always wondered about ink fading from card models that were printed off the desktop printer. I guess it would be wise to select a durable ink cartridge as you have done. Good idea.

Also, I like the look of your turret. It is very well made. I see that it has the slight gap between the top and the sides that I have noticed in photos of ships of this class. Any idea as to the purpose? They seem rather long for sighting slits and to me would seem to present a hazard during combat.

[Golden Bear]

Greg, there's an article in a French magazine that Renaud shared with me written by Luc Feron about paint colors on ships where he describes it as "wet canvas" colored. Also, there is a model of Bouvet built by Luc that I've been using as a guide.

http://navi.modelisme.com/dp/diaporama.php?root=bouvet&src=104

[CMDRTED]

Don't take my lack of comments as dis-interest, I've been following this design for awhile and as pointed out, whatever color it started out originally, the sea sun salt and gulls will have turned her an interesting off greyish/ochre/tan/buff/white!

[Golden Bear]

...and there is another factor in the color game. The photos do NOT show what the color looks like. I'll need to get it out in the sun to show the actual colors. For instance, the deck is actually darker and less red than it appears in the photos. The turrets also are less red.

Ted, I agree with you on that topic. But the people that care about these ships REALLY care about them and are fairly determined in their opinions. Renaud has a balanced view and I figure that if I can keep him happy I'm going to be OK. Luc Feron is one of, if not THE, grand authority on these ships - numerous articles in French magazines, many of which I have managed to buy. If I can come close to matching his stuff, I should be OK.

Greg, I have spent quite a while looking at these slots on the turrets. They don't appear in photos some times because they have shutters to cover them. As far as I can make out the shutters do not hinge up or down but rather are completely removed. I have not gained enlightenment from the Government drawings so my best guess is that they are simply for ventilation when the ship is not in action. I can imagine that these turrets were nasty hot to be within and when the guns were fired and had gasses and smoke in them were probably near to being uninhabitable. It is an interesting topic however.

I found from photos that the linoleum on the front deck was a single piece rather than strips whereas the aft deck used strips. Also, the strips on the aft deck are much wider than the 1.8m/6 feet wide that are described by Luc in his coloring article. I chose to use the wide strips throughout since I have no positive photos of the interior decking. Currently I am trying to decide whether to make the upper bridge (elevated above the structure) with a openwork wood deck or with a linoleum surface. I don't have positive evidence either way... Renaud leans towards the wood.

Hmm. The sun is out, maybe I'll take a quick picture.

[Golden Bear]

You're not rid of me yet. Here are a pair of outside photos. Notice how low the sun in at 1:30 pm here, near the 45th parallel. Please ignore the edges that still need to be trimmed and the others that will be colored. I only put the sides on last night.

[Don Boose]

It's beautiful, Carl!

C'est magnifique!

[B-Manic]

The deck colour looks great to me. It is very similar to the Malay modelarz ORP KRAKOW I have in my WIP pile (many, many problems with the hull). I really like the hull texture, great detail.

[Golden Bear]

Thank you, Doug. I liked it better this morning.:rolleyes: I'm struggling a little bit trying to get the secondary decks to match the main decks now since I needed to change printers in midstream. I had a funny problem with the older printer - the shelf holding it collapsed and dumped it. In the process it separated from the printer USB cable and destroyed the connecting port in the printer. I would have needed to rewire it but considering my ready access to printers I brought a newer and better one home. However, it prints darker than the previous one did. Fortunately the decks are the only parts from the prior printer that were already committed to the model. The newer printer is really about the best one that HP ever made in my informed opinion. It is one that I designed color cartridges for and participated in ink testing so I know all the goodies that went into it. It is a three pen system, color/photo/black with options to switch the photo for grey or blue photo cartridges - these latter two do really nice things for photos and in some ways are better than the light dye load photo cartridges. In addition to this it has the newer ink set that went through outside investigation to establish that the lightfastness is the best of any printer - yes, even Epson. It has a pigmented black which is superior to the dye based black that exists in the new ink tank printers so the black is blacker. Also it has some mysterious (not to me since I led the project) goodies to assure that the colors will be constant between the color and photo cartridges and also after changing cartridges. It also has a top quality "mech" - the paper handling and pen handling system. For reference it is the HP Photosmart 8450. If you're an HP printer fan and have the opportunity to pick one up at Goodwill or EBay, I highly recommend it. Also, the ink cost is really not that different from the ink tank printers, no matter who sells them. I'm looking for a spare myself against the day when it dies.

So much for that. I built a turret with the "Hoche" coloring and decided that it would look too light in the end. I recolored a step darker and built yet another turret and am pleased with it. If I get some light today I'll show a comparison picture. I'll have enough turrets soon to turn Charlemagne into an early Dreadnought. You'd think that I would be able to breeze through a turret after so much practice but I am pretty fed up with them really. At least I have figured out how to tweak things to make it a nice assembly and easier to build. Too bad this won't go commercial. Hmm.


Carl

[Golden Bear]

After that boring dissertation on inkjet, here is a photo. Unfortunately the camera is still compensating for low light despite the presenve of sunlight and the colors are off. The turret on the right is the new, darker turret.

[whulsey]

Golden Bear, I know zero about these ships, but this has been fascinating to follow. And with all the side info, really informative. Not to go to far astray, I have a HP Photosmart 3210. What do you think of them and how good do they compare with the 8450?

[Golden Bear]

Whulsey, I think that those use the "90" series of cartridges (i.e. 95 color, 94/96 black, etc.). In that case you have the same ink set that I am recommending and the advantages also for eliminating color differences between cartridges. I am uncertain about the mech, however. I suspect that it has the more recent, and lower quality mech in it. When I get back to work I can double check on that if you like. Since it is an older AIO it has about a 50% chance of having the better mech. I don't know whether you have the three pocket system in there either. If you don't you will face a choice between the pigmented black cartridge or the photo cartridge since they use the same slot. For models the black might be the best choice. The photo cartridge has a dye based "black" (not really black) in it and this cartridge's advantages are really more in photograph kind of uses... peoples' faces, landscapes, etc.

AIOs are neat but their driver code is even more of a nightmare than normal printer drivers... which are hellish. I run with the photo printer and an AIO together.


Carl

[whulsey]

Thanks, I bought it a little over a year and half ago. Not sure what you mean by the three pocket system. It uses a black, yellow plus light and dark magenta and cyan. For photo repo its really good. Lightfastness (with my background in graphics and fine arts) has been a concern about the inks used. Also their reactions to overcoating, since I've wanted to try and print decals with it.
Don't want to hijack the thread anymore.

[Golden Bear]

It's impossible to hijack any of my threads. "Pocket" is a place where a pen cartridge fits. A three pocket system has three cartridges mounted all the time. If I interpret your description exactly, you have two cartridges installed, one a 95 and one a 99 (or equivalents with different ink capacities). The black in the photo cartridge is not a true black since it is dye based. These inks have something like 120+ years lightfastness under glass. I don't think that you'll notice any problems. BTW, the measurements are made under full daylight, not in a closet.

[Don Boose]

As you said in another context, Carl, this thread keeps on giving! The printer info is useful and I love the shot of the "super-pre-dreadnought" with three turrets. Rather than let any of them go to waste, I recommend you design your own coast defense ship outfitted with cast-off parts of French battlewagons. Making up names for them would be part of the fun. Perhaps something like Étrange and Scandaleux. I seem to recall that British sailors referred to the Glorious and Courageous (when they were still battle cruisers armed with those enormous guns) as the "Outrageous-class." Later, the Repulse and Renown were in drydock so often that they came to be known as Refit and Repair.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

:) Don! I could also build a separate ship that I never display but that has the nice colors that I like. Of course I would never show it to anybody but treasure it to myself. The only thing holding me back is that I have limited work time with my shoulders... and the framing parts are particularly hard on me. I wish that Draf would make frames just for me.:p Silly moi.

[Don Boose]

Carl -- Yes! Save your shoulder for the important building. I was joking about the free-lance coast defense ship, of course, especially since there are so many real ships yet unbuilt. But back when I was in high school, my two best buddies, Jim Reuter (Jimr in this Forum) and Bill Geoghegan (DrBill) did a lot of model building, including 1/1200 ships using plans developed from photostats from Jane's Fighting Ships. Jim built a number of beautiful free-lanced models, including a pocket battleship and several battleships and cruisers that looked rather like a blend of 1930s German, French, and Italian warships. We were also fascinated by the Scandinavian coast defense ships -- I'm glad that David Hathaway makes some of them available and hope some day to build some.

What was that about highjacking threads?

Anyway, keep on building, but protéger l'épaule! [Which I hope means "protect the shoulder" and not something obscene - Renaud will put me right if so.]

Don

[Royaloakmin]

Carl, Renaud, you may want to check out the thread on Cardmodels about Victorian battleships. Renaud, they have indicated an interest in French predreadnoughts if they can get drawings so perhaps you may be interested in helping them.

regards

[Golden Bear]

I have not been inactive on this project but working on things that aren't apparent for a while. I really am not ready to show anything but I had a success and was pleased with it. The forward structure is designed with an outer card surface and an inner paper surface... and it actually fits just as I designed it, with allowance for the thicknesses of the materials! A small success perhaps but I am thrilled.

[Golden Bear]

My work is finally yielding some visible results. The lower/main part of the forward structure is finished and glued down. The pillars are rolled paper, not card, and are too thin for me to insert even my thinnest steel wire as a supporting core. Sorry about the bent one on the port side there, I'll straighten it. On the view from the front you can see that the doors are shown open... they appear like this in every photo I've got.

[Golden Bear]

Then I decided that, instead of working up the forward structure, I would build the aft structure up to the same level as the front. I didn't quite get it to the stage of gluing it down yet but here it is. Again the pillars are rolled paper rather than cardstock. It is tough to actually make them into perfect little tubes but I get pretty close... then a little paint on the seam and turn them so that the seam doesn't show and I can get away with it! I decided to split these aft pillars rather than running them through the deck because I was afraid of leaving over size holes and ruining the deck appearance - which I think will be far more apparent in the end.

BTW, masts and turrets are still unattached.

[jimkrauzlis]

Beautiful work, Carl!

Don't you love it when a plan comes together....

I'd say this is coming together quite nicely.

Thanks for posting your progress and sharing your amazing creation with us.

Cheers!
Jim

[Golden Bear]

Hi Jim! It is great to hear from you - I look forward to it. We don't see enough of you. Thanks for your support. It helps to keep up my drive to work on.


Carl

[Golden Bear]

Well, I guess that I can keep writing response to myself.

These are the 47mm guns that sit under the structures. The unattractively unfinished stern of the ship and the treuil are there for size reference. nothing in these is anything but paper or card and the the barrels and side cylinders (in some) are rolled.


Carl, the murderous warmonger.

[eatcrow2]

Looking great Carl!!!!! Appreciate you taking the time to post the photos, and the write-up...

[Don Boose]

You are truly amazing, Carl! These tiny parts are incredible. The craftsmanship is absolutely superb. Charlemagne, he is turning into a magnificent battleship!

Don

[B-Manic]

Woah, that is very tiny. Glad I didn't have to build them. They sure would not look that good if I did. Did you use something for a mandrel when you rolled the barrels?

[jimkrauzlis]

Hi, Carl!
Thanks; I, too, wish I could visit more often, but things have been very hectic lately.

I'm so glad you posted a photo with a set of tweezers so we can all see how truly small this model is, and the detailss you have achieved at this small scale are extraordinary.

Keep at it, mate!

Cheers!
Jim

[Golden Bear]

Woah, that is very tiny. Glad I didn't have to build them. They sure would not look that good if I did. Did you use something for a mandrel when you rolled the barrels?

Doug, I started the rolling with the tip of a steel probe. Once it started to curve, I rolled the piece gently in my fingertips and shaped it by feel. The barrels are far too tiny in diameter for me to fit any kind of mandrel inside.

I am afraid that they look crude. But they are awfully tiny.

[Clashster]

Wow, Carl! Looks great! They don't look crude, especially the detail in such a small package!

[dansls1]

Great job on those guns - man those are tiny and look very nice.

[Royaloakmin]

It is interesting to see the decks, which look like linoleum held down by brass strips. The Japanese must have picked this up from the early cruisers they purchased from French shipyards. The French were design pioneers and their naval cannon were probably the best in the world at that time. Carl is a pioneer, too, in bringing these unjustly neglected ships back to life. Great work.

[CMDRTED]

Wow! I had to go back to the beginning of the thread to see what scale these babies were in, still 1/250! Tight work!

[Golden Bear]

Yes, Fred, they were linoleum. I've been studying pictures to attempt to get them correct. Luc Féron - a genius for French ship knowledge BTW - indicated that they should be about 6' wide by maybe 40' long. However, pictures of the actual ship indicate that they were closer to 8' wide and probably shorter. There are places where I had no evidence so I took my best guess. There are also areas, like the bow, where the linoleum was laid down without strips - this fact shows clearly in a photo. The use of it on bridges and raised bridge decks is unknown. Luc shows a latticework of wood on the raised bridge on Bouvet. I toyed with doing that but decided that it was safer to go ahead with lino up there too - you have not seen this piece on the model yet.


Carl

[Golden Bear]

I've built some different secondary armament and done some detailing on the inside of the aft structure:

[CharlieC]

Amazing work....

Reading sideways about linoleum - according to Wikipedia the best quality linoleum was known as "battleship" grade. I guess linoleum must have been quite common in late 19th century ships. Unfortunately linoleum fell out out of favour in warships when it was realised it was quite flammable.

Regards,

Charlie

[Barry]

Wonderful as ever

[CMDRTED]

Very cool, I like the secondary guns on the deck top. Very very good!

[Don Boose]

Very, very nice, Carl. That ship had guns everywhere!

Don

[Golden Bear]

Oh yeah, baby. More guns to come still!

[cerberusjf]

This is great stuff, Carl, I can't wait to see the finished product! I hope you do go into production, you can certaily put my name down for an advanced order :-)
Well done,
John

[Don Boose]

I'd never be able to built it, and my primary interests lie elsewhere, but you would have assured sales from me -- at least one for me just to gaze at in amazement and to imagineer, and one for a friend who might actually be able to build it.

Don

[Golden Bear]

Not much apparent progress in these pictures but some folks were wondering how the build is going. I lost more time than you could believe with that top deck that shows in the picture below. My original printer died after I finished the basic hull. The new one prints a little differently with the result that on something as large and obvious as that deck a color mismatch was noticeable... and then I simply could not get the color to be what I wanted.

Well, I also had some design challenges around fitting things together neatly.

In the close up shot the little rings with the railings around them were openings for air ducts for the lower decks.


Carl

[dansls1]

Looking great!

I wanted to comment about one of the things I see you doing in your design that is an upgrade to even the Halinski kits, IMHO. You have printed the matching color even in the areas where something is going to be glued on. I find myself taking extra time to paint all those white spots just in case I don't cover the area completely - and that white showing through can mess up the look just as easy as not coloring an edge. In my opinion that should be standard.

[Golden Bear]

Yes, Dan, I have cursed those white spots for years! Now is my chance to strike a blow against them!

[Golden Bear]

I've pieced together the rest of the main deck detail. Lots of tiny wire pieces.

[Barry]

Work of Art mate way beyond just a model

[Don Boose]

Beautiful engineering and craftsmanship!

[B-Manic]

Wow, another work of art my friend. The level of detail is incredible. Are you going to put it in a nice display case when completed?


Douglas

[Golden Bear]

Thanks for the nice comments, friends! Doug, I may actually consider some kind of cover so that it doesn't get filthy with dust. I regularly dust my trove with a large soft watercolor brush, but this may be too fragile by the time that I am done.

I continue to work towards getting the upper deck fastened down. I added a little more detail underneath and printed out the paper for the 26 (28?) tiny pillars to support it. However, I got distracted by the funnels. It doesn't look like a ship until it has funnels right?

Theoretically someone could drive a wire through to connect the pivots for the funnel covers but I didn't feel like it. Prototyping always takes the most time and the first funnel (the rear one) took FOREVER to build. However, it came out looking nice and with my practice the second funnel only took 1/2 of forever to do.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Looks like all the hard work and patience paid off. Those are splendid funnels. The casemate guns are works of art, too.

The French ships were unique. Maybe something in the Mediterranean air, as the contemporary Italian ships were remarkable in appearance, as well.

Don

[Golden Bear]

Ooooo. I made a bad. I spent a day making the other three treuils that inhabit the deck under the top deck. I was (and am) very proud of my work. The only problem is that they were about 180% the size of what I actually wanted. I must have moved a zero somewhere when I scaled them. Well, anyhow, I redid them at 63% of the original size and here are the results...

Happy Holidays all you modelers out there!! Much peace and my very goodwill to all of you.


Carl

[Barry]

That's a fine Christmas present. I would be VERY proud if I had done them.

[CMDRTED]

Man, am I glad you fixed them thar trolls, whatever the heck they are!

[Don Boose]

Happy Holidays, Carl -- and may all your future treuils and vos autres machines navales all come in at 100 percent. Don

[B-Manic]

Are they Xmas treuils.

Our now long gone (artificial reef) fleet mantenance vessel, HMCS Cape Breton, had similar steam powered ones. Yours look great and very tiny, the gun looks great also.

[Greg S.]

Very interesting work on the funnels. I have never seen photos that show the details on the funnel covers as yours do. Good work!

Merry Christmas, Carl!

[Oliver Weiss]

Carl, this is wonderful work. But what are those funnel covers for?

Merry Christmas!

Oliver

[Golden Bear]

Oliver, I don't know but it easy to speculate. I have perhaps 20 nice photos of Charlemagne and Gaulois which I consult for building. The funnel covers are used when the ship is stopped in port. Only one funnel would be covered and the other left open. In some photos there is a little smoke coming out of the open one. All the "at sea" photos show the covers stepped open for both funnels.

Greg, I found a lot of the mechanism detail by looking at photos. Then I did a simulation of how the cover would need to move in order to be flush at the top in one position and vertical at the side in the other. Finally, I found detail on one of the French drawings in the archives... its on a series of cutaway sections if I remember correctly. BTW, my simulation placed the axis at almost precisely where the actual one was.

Carl

[Clashster]

Spectacular work, Carl! The details are amazing! Can't wait for the next installment!

[B-Manic]

FYI

The covers are used to keep weather (rain), birds and thier droppings, etc from entering the ship. When the ship is running (at sea) the force of updraft from the boiler fireboxes and vented steam would prevent this problem. Alongside one of the covers is left open because the ship still needs steam for heat, hot water and various other operations such as the galley or generating electricity. Ships often had a small bogie boiler for these domestic purposes when alongside.

Most modern warships are diesel, gas turbine, diesel & gas turbine, diesel electric, gas turbine electric or various combinations of these. They still have fairly large stacks because inaddition to providing feed air to these systems the stacks are used to cool exhaust products. This reduces the vessels infrared signature.

[Golden Bear]

Since you have confirmed my suspicions about the stack covers - nice comment about the Christmas treuils btw - why weren't they and aren't they more common? It seems to me that the vast majority of warships had nothing similar. Frequently there were screens over the tops but not actual covers.

The next installments will involve the dozens of tiny pillars and the two non casemented heavy secondary guns with shields. For some reason the shield is not laying out correctly in Rhino and I'm efforting a little on it. Things may be slow because of the honeydo list I was left with when the adorable wife went off to work in the bookstore this morning.



Carl

[birder]

thank-you Golden Bear for sharing this build, nice to see what is capable of being done in ships of this type. Your build thread is interesting, including diversions to printers, I found locally for sale a 8450 for cheap, and have'nt replaced my 1115 photosmart as it simply works great. Since most of my builds for the last 2 years have been "beta builds" I just dont need much else, but your info on what a printer can do was eye opening. I also have a diversion question. If you don't mind, My grandfather who worked on projects with Sikorsky and Houghes in the early days, immegrated on the ship Empress of Japan around 1916. Are you familiar with this vessel, it was apparently the first of two with this name, and quite an early steam liner, with masts and bowsprit (figurehead too, which still exists in Vancouver, Canada).

[B-Manic]

Since you have confirmed my suspicions about the stack covers - nice comment about the Christmas treuils btw - why weren't they and aren't they more common? It seems to me that the vast majority of warships had nothing similar. Frequently there were screens over the tops but not actual covers.

The next installments will involve the dozens of tiny pillars and the two non casemented heavy secondary guns with shields. For some reason the shield is not laying out correctly in Rhino and I'm efforting a little on it. Things may be slow because of the honeydo list I was left with when the adorable wife went off to work in the bookstore this morning.



Carl

Most ships now use canvas or plastic coated fabric as covers occasionally even sheet metal lids. I suspect the mechanical ones would have been great when they actually worked. However, the mechanical parts would have been subjected to extreme changes of temperature, salt spray and highly corrosive chemicals from the exhaust. The cost of maintaining them at the funnel top would have outwieghed the convenience. They certainly are interesting though.

[Oliver Weiss]

Since you have confirmed my suspicions about the stack covers - nice comment about the Christmas treuils btw - why weren't they and aren't they more common? It seems to me that the vast majority of warships had nothing similar.

Perhaps that's because the vast majority of warships was nothing like these unique ones! I can't wait until you start on one of the coastal protection ships - One wonders if were supposed to scare invaders away just by their looks :)

I hope you will allow this little hijack, Carl, but your incredible work inspired me to push ahead with my somewhat neglected Solferino/Magenta project.


Cheers,

Oliver

[Golden Bear]

It isn't possible to hijack any thread of mine. I love the subject of that modelyou have started.

[cerberusjf]

I love the Magenta/Solferino too, as well as the Redoutable thet you posted earlier. I hope to see your model soon :-) Are you planning on adding it to your models for sale?

I am really enjoying Carl's "Charlemagne" build, it's simply amazing what he can achieve.

Merry Xmas
John

[Golden Bear]

It has been a couple days since I posted a fresh picture so I'll post a couple despite not having much of any excitement to display. The treuils were installed and then I put in 24 pillars. The pillars are printed on HP Bright White and rolled around the tiniest steel wire that I have. After all that I glued them in place and kept tweaking them until they looked straight to me. Then, with considerable trepidation, I attempted to fit the top deck assembly over them and between the two main structures. It fit nearly perfectly thank goodness. So I glued it all down with great relief.

Then I prepared to put on the facings around the edges of the top deck by examining my photos... good thing too! I discovered some previously unnoted detail under the midships bulge of the top deck. Thus, today I have the job of attaching facings, deck supports and hopefully building 10.8cm shielded gun mounts. There's always something more to do.


Carl

[Golden Bear]

...and a little more to show:
- facings on top deck
- 10.8cm guns with shields (barrels are too fat)
- supports under top deck and aft structure (nearly invisible in this photo)
- top deck railings
- armored conning tower
- started fitting other bridge details

Man, this super-fault-finding-macro-mode really brings out the warts in a model! I've got more touch up to do I guess.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Carl --

It looks great. The 10.8cm barrels may in fact be too fat, but they look right. I think the eye does some compensation, just as it does for some models (not yours) that have railings and rigging a tad thicker than scale.

With regard to treuils, I suppose they were a fixture in ships of the steam and steel pre-internal combustion era. I have visited the USS Olympia in Philadelphia many times over the years and noticed little steam engines mounted throughout the ship with drums/spindles that belts could be attached to to run machinery. These were in addition to the donkey engines that powered the cargo-handling rigging.

On the other hand, I agree that funnel covers do not seem to have been widely used -- at least, they are not visible in photographs, nor have I seen them in such ships as the Olympia and Texas.

Don

[Clashster]

Looks beautiful, Carl! I tell you, if you ever decide to release any one of your ships, I will be in line to purchase one!! Great job!

[Oliver Weiss]

My, look at all those different guns! She's bristly like a porcupine! I read that the presence of so many calibers made it nearly impossible to accurately determine how any one salvo fell. This fault was especially glaring at Tsushima and led to the development of the one-caliber heavy armament found in the 1907 "Dreadnought".

Cheers,


Oliver

[Barry]

Carl turn off the super lens lets see her as she really is just beautiful !!

[Golden Bear]

My, look at all those different guns! She's bristly like a porcupine! I read that the presence of so many calibers made it nearly impossible to accurately determine how any one salvo fell. This fault was especially glaring at Tsushima and led to the development of the one-caliber heavy armament found in the 1907 "Dreadnought".

Cheers,


Oliver

Also, Oliver, each of the guns/turrets was individually sighted (ranged) back in those days. They did fire rather slowly so maybe that helped a little. I doubt it though. Even the Dreadnought did not originally have central fire control. A good many of the British ships still did not have central control as late as 1914. The Germans had made that improvement some time before.


Carl

[Oliver Weiss]

And still, with all that the hit ratio at Jutland was about 3%, wasn't it?

[Golden Bear]

Yes, it was just that low. These earlier ships must have been much closer to each other when firing, for instance at Tsushima, in order to hit anything at all with their scattered shot.

[Golden Bear]

Barry, there is a nice large image over at the Zealot forum - they allow bigger pictures in their posts - that shows the entire model. The color is rather foul thanks to the lack of any real daylight for many weeks around here.


Carl

[Barry]

Yea I like that one Carl

[pitlord]

Very interesting project. Your hull looks very nice. I am watching you.;)

Michal

[CharlieC]

Yes, it was just that low. These earlier ships must have been much closer to each other when firing, for instance at Tsushima, in order to hit anything at all with their scattered shot.

Tsushima mightn't be a good example since the Japanese fleet was reasonably modern and homogenous compared to the Russian Baltic fleet. Togo's tactics of using the superior fleet speed of the Japanese ships (16 vs 9 knots) and focusing fire at reasonably long range (6000 m) with his heavier guns on Russian ships in turn certainly paid off. I think the idea of an all big gun ship (Dreadnought - 1906) was in development about the time of Tsushima (1905).

Regards,

Charlie

[Golden Bear]

I've taken advantage of some wan sunlight outside to take some pictures with natural light. Masts, funnels are set in place, not glued. I'm close to gluing down the upper bridge deck but not quite there yet.



Carl

[Royaloakmin]

Looking excellent, Carl. I believe Fisher worked out the Dreadnought design before the results of Tsushima. The effective long ranges there were a surprise. What Tsushima really proved was that the French protection scheme was faulty. HNY and regards.

[dansls1]

Looks great - the natural light makes her colors look more weathered and realistic looking.

[Golden Bear]

The bridges are pretty much done. I've got some odds and ends to do while I get ready to start on the cranes.


Carl

[Barry]

Run out of superlatives just recycle a few mate. I have been meaning to ask you how many dots per inch are you using to produce the textures.

[Golden Bear]

Thank you Barry. I'm working at 600dpi with the textures. It seems to resolve well upon printing and any greater bogs down the mechanical servant something awful. 300 seems a little chunky but it is serviceable in most ways. I probably don't gain much with the 600 but it seems to offer some opportunities for detailing. I don't know what is standard for this sort of thing but it gives me some variety in line thickness at least.


Carl

[Clashster]

Such beautiful work, Carl! Love the look of this ship!!!

[Don Boose]

This ship absolutely radiates power and your model captures the heft and look perfectly. Charlemagne later participated in the Dardenelles operation, non?

Don

[Golden Bear]

Ah, oui! Voir l'image:

[Don Boose]

That is a dramatic photo! By any chance is the ship at the right the Bouvet going down?

Don

[Golden Bear]

No, that is not a ship going down. It is shell splash from the shore batteries.

[Don Boose]

Thanks, Carl. It looked like the tip of the prow of a ship in the midst of all the sturm und drang (tempête et les luttes?). Don

[Golden Bear]

I've seen the film of the Bouvet going down. I don't recall seeing any ships very close to it. It had pulled away from the rest of the ships to attempt to retreat out of the area and found the unsuspected minefield along the shore.


Carl

[Don Boose]

I see now that what I took to be part of a ship is just an odd shape to the shell splash. It appears that the famous funnel covers are open on the forward funnel and closed on the aft funnel -- at least, I don't see the covers on the aft funnel and presume they are closed -- no smoke or steam escaping from that funnel, either.

Don

[cerberusjf]

There's a flm of the Bouvet sinking? I'd love to see that, can ou remember where you saw it please? Here are the only photos I know of her.. sorry if this is off topic
Thanks
John

[Golden Bear]

John, it is in one of the WWI video histories available out there. It is just stuck in with a bit of fast-told story. I'll see if I can track it down sometime for you.



Carl

[shrike]

Trying to find photos / films of the Bouvet (I was mildly curious) I came across a very pretty French 28mm commemorative silver coin of the ship. On eBay of course.
Has little or nothing to do with the thread or the model, but a neat trinket nonetheless.

[birder]

This thread is a fountain of history and fine modeling. Quite thrilling to follow, history of an age gone by......thank you gentlemen

[Golden Bear]

Not much to show for almost a week's worth of work. I've been modeling the boats. I've built 2 of the steam launches and one of the others so far, but have prototyped the rest.

Carl

[APA-168]

Looks great so far!

[Golden Bear]

Well, that work thing has definitely sapped my efforts for working on this model and I was at near stop for a while. I've build a flock of little boats for Charlemagne and have begun work on the large boat cranes. Here are a pair of pictures showing the little boats and the aft cranes. I've only built one of the front cranes so far so there's some work ahead there.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Nice to see Charlemagne again, Carl. The cranes, davits, and boats are terrific.

Don

[member_3]

OMG! It's a flotilla of small craft threatening the Charlemagne!!! Oops, wait - it's actually just the evening news. Looking good, Carl!

[Barry]

really like the steam barge Admiral's for the use of

Nil carborundum desperandum Carl take care mate

[Golden Bear]

I've been using my computer time to design a new model with the intent that it would be more likely to be converted into an actual kit. This is the Galilee/Lavoisier/Linois, a small French cruiser. It has nice lines and is fairly straightforward. There will be build challenges around the open main deck amidships - which will take skinning inside and out. Also, a fair amount of the interior main deck construction will be visible through the side gun bulges so that will be included. Of course, the bulges could always be built closed up but that would hide the nice guns and nobody would want that, I'm certain.:)

Don't worry, I still work on the Charlemagne when I have blocks of time to do it but those times are more limited with work pressures these days. I do have the foreward large boat cranes put together and about 2/3 assembled. Hopefully they'll be wrapped up today and I can get on to other things.

The first picture shows the edges of the main deck details through the top deck. The second is rendered in more of a light grey color scheme.



Carl

[dansls1]

Nice rendering! I've got it as my new wallpaper! (Well, I will if this silly work Win98 machine will get it's act together...)

[member_3]

<<Heavy sigh>> Carl dangles more raw meat in front of the paper-modeling wolves!!! 1:250 or 1:200, please!!!

[CharlieC]

Forgive my ignorance on matters nautical....

Did the gallery with the main guns run across the ship? I have a vague recollection from a Physics lecture a long time ago this was a silly idea because there was always the possibility of filling the gallery with water in storm conditions, disturbing the hydrostatic stability and rolling the ship over. I believe this happened to a British warship in the 19th century.

Regards,

Charlie

[Golden Bear]

Well, Ron, I'm going to design it for 1:250 so that I can put in adequate detail. Also, folks, like me, can purchase railings to spiff it up.

Charlie, the main deck is continuous from front to back of the ship. When the guns are not in use the openings get closed with shutters which probably helps keep things drier in there. BTW there is no sign of the shutters in photos when the bulges are open. Apparently they are completely removed and stored away.


Carl

[B-Manic]

The cruiser looks real nice Carl. Will it be waterline or full hull?

~Douglas

[Golden Bear]

Waterline right now. I'm not personally interested in full hull. I'm thinking about doing it anyway but not necessarily.

BTW, I've been looking at grainy photos some more and have spotted a couple where the gun bulge shutters are shown open. It isn't necessary though. I don't know that it adds useful detail really. I'm designing with open shutters and possibly a closed option. I'll probably try to keep it simple.


Carl

[dansls1]

I'm designing with open shutters and possibly a closed option. I'll probably try to keep it simple.

Boo, hiss! I was hoping you were going to shoot for matching, if not exceeding, the 8500+ part count of the recent Halinski Fuso release :D

*Note - please don't send me any mail bombs, the above comment is purely sarcastic and I do not intend to increase any torture factor GB may include in the release of this model kit ;)

[Golden Bear]

Oh, sure, try to goad me. I'll make a special version for you with the covers - with little hinges too.

Actually, I'm going to make some deliberate choices not to pursue detailing that won't add to the model and that can be handled graphically. I want it to be interesting but not overwhelming to build.


Carl

[Royaloakmin]

We are drooling here...you really are tormenting us. Will we get to see an AC eventually?

[Golden Bear]

Yes, somewhere along the line. It would take almost as much effort as for a bb however so I might take a while. I already have my next bb targeted but I need to marshall some special resources in order to make it happen. I'm hoping that I'll get the information that I need just as I wrap up Charlemagne.


Carl

[APA-168]

I vote for D'Entrecasteaux! :D

Lovely work on Galilee.

[Golden Bear]

The d'Entrecateaux is available already in a crude 1:400 model from JSC, so I'll probably avoid it for now, even though it is an attractive boat. Pothuau has my attention and I've always wanted to build the Jean D'Arc... any ship that took 6 years to finish has an appeal.

Here are pictures of the d'Entrecateaux (left) and Pothuau for folks not familiar with this somewhat unknown subject. They are sponged from www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk.com

[APA-168]

Oh c'mon, 1/400 isn't nearly big enough, thus it does not count :D Pothuau is the subject of a future 1/700 scratchbuild, and another one of my favorites. Jean D'Arc is nice....don't know about six years to build, but those six funnels sure look mighty fine :D

[Royaloakmin]

I built the JSC kit, and as Carl says, it is crude. The built model doesn't look much like the cover painting. JD'A would be a good choice, also I might vote for a Leon Gambetta. The more funnels the merrier!
Regards

[Golden Bear]

Here is an update to show that I am still eking my way forward. After hours of work on the belt it looks like total sheit. Very positive feeling there. I'm not showing the closer in SFFMM shot deliberately. The colors at least are nicer in real life. I'll look out for a sun break tomorrow.

[Clashster]

This is a beautiful looking model, Carl! Personally, I like this distance for pictures - gives a great perspective on the whole thing. Great work!

[Golden Bear]

I posted quickly last night on my way to dreamland so I'll give some details here.

First, there is some relief to the plating on the sides of the hull. Renaud has been assisting me with remembering to do something about this. He thinks that it blends in somewhere about a quarter of the way back from the bow, but the drawings show it continuing all the way to the stern. Also, I've been able to pick up details of it in photos all the way to the stern. It is a curious thing that it is only visible from a distance and under different lightings and it disappears in close up photos.

OK, so I laminated that on and in three sections that do not overlap the original hull seam.

Then I laid down a piece of plain HPBW paper 3mm tall to give the white edging above the belt. Finally, I put on the belt, colored to match the lead based reddish orange paint - BTW, these ships were actually green on the hull below the red stripe - this time in two pieces again staggered to not align with other seams.

I sculpted the stern (not visible in my photo) and had it looking good but then the application of the armor belt causes it to look too steep again. I'll need to ponder how to fix that but I will soon.

It all looks simple and easy, but doing it neatly without gluey problems and without smashing railings up top is an issue.

Fore and aft deck pieces are all designed, colored and waiting for installation, as well as the admiral's walk. Mast coloring is in process.

Nice to have a three day weekend.


Carl

[rlwhitt]

This is one truly awesome looking model! And I'm blown away by your design skills on these things. Not really my type of subject, but I remain expremely impressed with all of your latest!

[Golden Bear]

I took some shots outdoors in a momentary period of not-completely-overcast to try showing the colors better. Picture three is an example of the method for holding rolled tubes while they dry with paper strips and small paper clips. I have modified the clips to make the tips blunt.


Carl

[Gil]

Carl,

Sunlight really makes a difference! Nice color palette choice...,

+Gil

[member_3]

I see things in a whole different light! You just continue to impress us with both your design and build skills, Carl!

[birder]

Golden Bear I cannot see anything but a beautiful ship there. Great prow on those era warships, really is a work of art.