CAM cutting

[jmcdermott]

I have been looking at machines that will cut cad files.

I am curious as to how many of you would be interested in pre-cut parts.

I spend a lot of time on CAD parts and would like a fast way to cut and test. I think I am probably skewed as far as kits because I don't like cutting out parts.

Is there a market for kits that are already cut?

[Gil]

Pre-cuts would help reduce pirating and might be attractive to proprietors of card model stores and designers alike.

I'm interested in what other members think about it. We've had prior discussions on the subject and action by some members followed by their disappearance from the site (not good?) . . . ,

+Gil

[Ron0909]

I think this hobby of ours would be a waste of time with pre cut parts. I may as well go back to plastics. What skill is there needed to strictly shape and glue paper? Actually...I never would go back to plastic but I *would* look at designing my own paper kits. Having laser cut formers is about enough pre-made stuff for me. Please don't take offence to my stance as it's not personal at all. I just don't want to see this hobby go from one of learned and practiced skills to a hobby for little suburban kids with safety scissors. OMG!!!!! little Johnny can't possibly do that! he might cut himself! or poke himself in the eye!
Ron

[doug]

i would interested,with fulltime jobs and two kids around the house it would be good to have the choice,people said arfs would be the end of r/c,and all the extra things you can buy for plastics would end the hobby but that has not happened.who knows maybe would get more people into the hobby which would not be bad.doug

[aeroamit]

Pre cuts are good ,but I would not be able to enjoy the model as my part is less and main craftsmanship is there in cutting apart from creating it. So for me ,I would prefer to cut and then build rather than getting pre cut models.

Amit

[lehcyfer]

I see no reason why not pre-cut model parts. What Ron0909 said about kids with safety scissors seems very good for us, paper-modelers. Kids making precut paper toys will grow up and build complicated models. The ability to use printer, scissors and glue to make models made this hobby widely spread - and that part won't change - simply some people will be glad to pay more to save time and hassle with cutting parts out.

And lets not demonize it - forming and gluing paper is usually the most difficult part of this hobby. Clean, precise built is a mark of a good modeler and this will not change.

[cdavenport]

I have the same opinion as lycefer. I would be more inclined to build kits with larger part counts if I didn't have to cut out each part. I know I am quite capable of doing a professional job of cutting; I need not prove it each time I build.

[Bomarc]

Jason,

I started one such discussion on this subject not too long ago:

http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/article-discussions/5372-laser-cut-formers.html

I'm a do-it-yourself kind of guy, and prefer cutting out formers myself, regardless of part count (journey, not the destination kind of thing). But, after reading some of the posts from that previous discussion, it's clear that there's a viable market for pre-cut stuff. What kind of cutter are you thinking about, laser?

Mike

[GreMir]

I like to do all my cutting myself, but I also used laser cut formers to save time so I'm open to precut parts.
Deciding factor of course will be price since with precut parts you do not have an option to reprint the part and try again. This of course forces you to have a spare kit which doubles the cost.

[Wyvern]

I like doing the cutting that is the key to this aspect of modelling, however, I I dislike repetitious cutting, particular of parts with compound curves, like airfoil formers. I recently purchased (after participating in Bomarc's thread) my first set of laser-cut formers, for an Orlik Albatros B.1. That should reduce the amount of hair I'll lose building the kit! So I would love to see pre-cut former packages available for those who would like to use them.

Wyvern

[jmcdermott]

I like doing the cutting that is the key to this aspect of modelling, however, I I dislike repetitious cutting, particular of parts with compound curves, like airfoil formers. I recently purchased (after participating in Bomarc's thread) my first set of laser-cut formers, for an Orlik Albatros B.1. That should reduce the amount of hair I'll lose building the kit! So I would love to see pre-cut former packages available for those who would like to use them.

Wyvern

Back around 1990 when I was doing arch/eng models, the subject of laser cutting was a big issue in the modeling community. The traditional pattern makers poo poo'd it as cheating and it probably put a lot of guys out of work.

I bet there were some old Japanese paper modelers that thought all those x-acto blade users were an abomination. True paper modelers only cut the parts out with a bamboo knife.

[buffalowings]

I love the idea! actually, precut folds would be nice as well, you know, the laser cuts 1/3rd through the cardstock so you can fold it without scribing it

found the link to a laser cut kit

http://www.zealot.com/forum/showthread.php?p=880304

[Stev0]

Formers are what we need, without perfect formers the skin will be out of position. As for pre-cut parts... meh.

[NimitzFan]

I could use it for those itty-bitty parts that reduce me to the use of a razor blade otherwise. I'd also be glad to get rid of the tedium of large numbers of duplicate parts. (On ship models there are tons of small repetitive parts.)

To me, a very large part of the talent needed in paper modeling is seen AFTER you cut out the parts. I am pretty good at cutting things out - but I am often best at screwing them up thereafter!!!! <GRIN!>

[buffalowings]

I could use it for those itty-bitty parts that reduce me to the use of a razor blade otherwise. I'd also be glad to get rid of the tedium of large numbers of duplicate parts. (On ship models there are tons of small repetitive parts.)

To me, a very large part of the talent needed in paper modeling is seen AFTER you cut out the parts. I am pretty good at cutting things out - but I am often best at screwing them up thereafter!!!! <GRIN!>

agreed as well, cutting parts out is pretty easy, but coloring the edges, folding, curving, that's a different story...

[Zathros]

I can't see the economy of scale here. You would never make any money at it. Making those 1mm formers on a lot of models would probably save people from getting carpal tunnel syndrome, so who knows? Maybe if you sold kits and included the pre-cut parts as an option but then wouldn't you need permission from the designers/owners to make the parts? If you pre-cut a whole model, or significant parts thereof wouldn't that be copying it? I just wonder.

[Thomas Meek]

I enjoy cutting out parts and also trimming and fitting them. There are some (steel rule) die cut models on the market already, but I have never wanted to buy them and probably would not buy a kit that was 100% laser cut either.

On the other hand,they certainly would save a lot of repetitive drudgery on some models. If I decided to build a super detailled tank, I might consider lasercut treads, who knows? I think there are a lot of people out there who would buy laser cut kits and I think it is a good idea to consider.

I don't think that price will be as important in marketing laser cutting, as the ability to convince the Public that they want it and it's worth the extra money. And I definitely think that advertising could bring a very good return especially if it is not limited to the paper modelling community.

[lancer525]

What a fantastic idea! I would LOVE to have pre-cut parts for certain aspects of building, like formers, internal bulkheads, spacers, stiffeners and that kind of thing. Most of the rest of the parts needed for external building, people would have to cut themselves, I think, but I would like to be able to send someone an email, and say, "Hey, I have a model of the Super-Widget, and it needs X number of former parts on 1mm card, and Y number on 2mm card, here's the image file, how much to do me a set of pre-cut parts?" As long as it was a reasonable cost, I'd love to go that route. No one ever sees internals, unless they're really out of whack!

If I were to send you some specifications for a whole bunch of specific parts for something I'm designing, would you be willing to laser cut them for me out of 1mm cardstock?

[Art Deco]

I think the most promising role for pre-cut parts in card modeling would be similar to that of photo-etched parts in the plastic world - as accessories/upgrade kits, as opposed to entire pre-cut models.

Here I am thinking of parts where manual cutting is too tedious or difficult because of:

- the volume of parts (e.g. tank treads, hull & wing formers)

- parts are too fine or delicate (e.g. screens, railings, ladders)

- a kit that has very many round parts (e.g. a panzer with all those overlapping road wheels, a ship hull with hundreds of round portholes)

Pre-cut parts could be sold by the designer as an upgrade for a particular model. They could probably be sold at a higher margin than the models themselves, which would be good news for designers (who generally face a market with low model prices).

Alternatively, pre-cut parts could also be sold by a third party (a la AvantCard (http://www.avantcard.biz/)), either as upgrades for specific models, or as generic sets (e.g. 1/250 ship railings).

I think the biggest challenge in offering pre-cut parts would be the size of the potential market vs. the cost of a laser, but I expect both sides of that equation to quickly become more favorable.

[Gil]

Response is similar to what was expressed previously. Several mentioned that repetitive items like tank treads or items that are nearly impossible to cut out by hand (railings) and formers requiring accurate outline for fit reasons are all candidates for pre-cut kitting. These already exist as additional add-on items for a limited number of kits on the market. There's no data on whether sales of these items are self supporting yet. The idea that non builders might try paper modeling if the kits come almost ready to assemble (ARA) also remains an open issue.

Something I've been thinking about fits into this category. The idea is to design the model in a manner that it closely resembles the structure of the subject under study. The skin would then be applied following the same sequence as the original. The skin will have been embossed with scale rivet detail and panel lines before being cut out for the kitting. Forming the compound curved panels remains a task for the modeler. Vacuum formed canopies etc. would be included as would decal sheets.

Level of detail remains a question but that's the idea . . . ,

+Gil

[cdavenport]

I have been lobbying for a similar idea with the exception that I save building time and increase seam accuracy by filling the gaps between longerons and bulkheads with closed cell styrofoam sanded to the appropriate contour.

The issue of compound curves is an easy one to tackle with paper as long as you have the proper rolling tools, which I do. Also, if one examines the curves of an aluminum skinned aircraft closely, you will see that there are actually few complicated compound curves. The most complicated are often found at the leading edge of the wing fillet, and manufacturers solve this problem with a bit of welding or segmented sections. The P-38 Lightning comes immediately to mind.

The real points of contention are rivets and panel lines. Of course, these issues are as old as the hobby itself. For those of us who started in plastic, the references to the "Airfix Mad Riveter" are rife. Even in the largest scales, rivets and panel lines have to be dealt with very carefully so as not to mar the scale effect.

Possibly the best treatment I have seen recently is Ken West's X-15 followed by his XB-70, both masterful renditions.

[Zathros]

I worked under and A and P,and A.I., for a while when I was flying. I helped him re-build a crashed Cessna 182. I was amazed by how using many smaller pieces the manufacturers got such smooth looking airplanes. The most complex pieces were usually figerglass or some type of plastic. I am surprised that modelers don't use more paper mache techniques on some parts.

[lancer525]

I completely agree, CD. Ken's aircraft are both superlative examples of just how complicated a curvature can be replicated in paper. I've seen some ships that rivaled that as well.

I am still looking for someone who does laser cutting, to do a small project for me. I need a series of rings and circles with very precise dimensions done. I don't have either the time or the skill, or the inclination for that matter to do 20 sets of these things. They have 6 pieces each! Anyone know anybody out there who does contract laser cutting?

[cdavenport]

I worked under and A and P,and A.I., for a while when I was flying. I helped him re-build a crashed Cessna 182. I was amazed by how using many smaller pieces the manufacturers got such smooth looking airplanes. The most complex pieces were usually figerglass or some type of plastic. I am surprised that modelers don't use more paper mache techniques on some parts.

I'm with you, Z.

[jmcdermott]

I have been away for a bit due to moving. I am almost done, but totally worn out.

My interest in CAM cutting is not for what "is" but would "could" be.

[Gil]

Amazing how much "junk" one accumulates. The act of moving really brings out the degree of "how much".

How's your back?

+Gil

[jmcdermott]

My back is in great shape. I pulled my achilles tendon at a ju jutsu test a couple of weeks ago. That is what is not fun at the moment. I loaded my gun safe on a trailer yesterday and it nearly killed me.

My lathe is the thing I fear. I saved that for the guys that offered to help me move tomorrow. They probably won't offer next time.

I think I am going to make the investment in a CAM machine. I am looking it at it like a tool, and not a way to make things easier.

The possibilities of detail and subjects goes through the roof.

As I work myself back to modeling becoming a vocation again, I am thinking about the details. It sure would make the beta builds a breeze.

[redhorse]

Are you looking at something like a craft-robo? I know kooklik used something like that on parts of his Big Boy.