Odd updates

[Barry]

I have all sorts of bits of unfinished bits I have started to go back and try and finish them. For ages I could never get the bridge and fire control director right on HMS Starling and I finally found a picture that sorted out the mistakes and as it is one of my favourites it would be nice to finally finish her. I guess only a ship nut would notice the differences.

[Barry]

Another one I keep trying to do unfortunately the fuselage is evil to unfold but hope springs eternal

[Don Boose]

Barry --

I'd like to see you pursue both of these. The Black Swan class sloops were excellent and historic ships. I always thought they packed a terrific punch (six 4-inch DP and 12 20mm Oerlikons) on a small hull. I presume you picked Starling because it was Captain Frederic John Walker's flagship when he commanded 2d Support Group in 1943?

And the Empire class flying boats were also beautiful and historic. By coincidence, I recently received the October 2007 issue of Skyways aviation history journal. The cover illustration is a magnificent photo of Caledonia flying over New York in 1937. The lead article is about the Pan American east coast flying boat bases and has several photos of Empires: Caledonia taxiing at the New York Port Washington terminal, Cavalier floating off the Port Washington ramp, and (my favorite) Cavalier flying over the Baltimore, Maryland facility at Harbor Field.

We moved to Baltimore in December 1946, a time when BOAC was still flying Boeing 314s in and out of the Harbor Field flying boat terminal. I never actually saw them, but have a vivid memory of watching a film of one of the 314s taking off from Baltimore harbor when I was in grade school.

Incidentally, I will be making a posting in your Colossus thread soon, but have been out of town and then a bit busy.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

Y'know Barry, I gave a shot at that flying boat and it wasn't far from being there. I wonder if I could help somehow by throwing it into Rhino for you to clear things up. Funny that it has not yet been covered by PMing. It is one of the great planes ever. It is probably a legacy of the current state of cm where we only get Brit or US planes if they happened to have Polish pilots. Thank goodness for Zabreski I guess. Anyhooo, I'll help with that one if you can think of how.


Carl

[Barry]

Thanks Carl I shall take you up on that offer even if it just an experiment it would be interesting to see the differences.

Don my Dad was on the Atlantic convoys CPO on a Corvette (Nasturtium) which have been done to death. He always hankered after one of these for a bit more firepower instead of being the pick up boat. Starling is virtually finished needs the bridge and masts and an anchor winch which will not be up to Carls' standard

[Don Boose]

Barry --

I look forward to the Starling. I don't recall ever seeing a model of a Black Swan, other than in 1/1200 or 1/1250 metal (I have several of both) .

And perhaps between the two of you, you and Carl can bring the Empire class flying boat to life. Once you've mastered the technique, how about a Shorts Rangoon?

As far as working small is concerned, here is a sample of my efforts to make you feel better. It's a 3-inch long 1875 Swedish steam launch I inadvertently enlarged from one of David Hathaway's 1/250 freebies. I'm building as a simple model to help get back/improve (actually, "acquire") some hand skills before proceeding to something more complicated. I laminated the decks to 0.5mm card, cut out the coaming and doubled the thickness, added boiler bands and little brass-colored disks, and fabricated a little propeller to try to give it a bit of a three-dimensional quality. The main deck hasn't been glued on yet. Crude, but another step on the road.

Don B.

[John Bowden]

Don................ every journey begins with the first step............... She looks sweet.

Flying Boats............. the best of both worlds! I must get out of the building block I have let myself fall into................... maybe during the holidays I can over come it.


john

[Barry]

Some things are easier than others she has been waiting for two years for the mast and the face lift on the bridge maybe it will finally finished.

[Don Boose]

Whoa!

Excellent!

Don B.

[Barry]

NOBI I am not or ever will be but it was a bit of fun. I am not skilled at building aircraft so some of the flaws are due to ineptitude. I was using UHU yellow pack to put it together and for some reason I could not get it stick I seemed to have a pretty good joint and 30 mins later it lifted.

After the attempt on the Boeing clipper I decided to try building it using joining strips and to my surprise the fuselage is at least straight. I used 120 gsm paper but I am too ham fisted with it so if I get around to another attempt I shall use my favourite 160 gsm card.

I lost track of where the step in the hull was so that is not right and i tried to put too narrow a spray bar in at the aft end which just does not show. The texture on the lettering I shall put down as "weathered" and done by one of the crew.

The wing spar was fitted by producing two formers one with the spar cut off to shape the fuselage and it's brother to add the spar. I have no idea at the moment how I will fit the wings to it.

I find sticking a screwdriver into the formers just produces a big hole when I try to do it so fitting the formers was a bit hit and miss. It should have another former in place in front of the Imperial Airways legend to take out the hump in the top.

Scale is 1/72 (I should probably have made it 1/200) this gives a length of about 13 inches.

Any helpful or unhelpful comments would be welcome like a suggestion for a good cheap texturing program which will fit with Pepakura.

[Don Boose]

Very interesting and informative build, Barry. I do admire you scratchbuilders! Canopus seems to be shaping up well. I'm afraid I can offer nothing regarding Pepakura and can only cheer from the sidelines.

You say you have a Boeing clipper under construction (or built) as well as this Shorts Empire flying boat? Are there pictures of it? As I mentioned in an earlier post, both the BOAC Empires and Boeing 314s flew in and out of Baltimore harbor in the 1940s when I was a little kid there and I love both of those beautiful flying boats.

Don

[Barry]

Hi Don

Everybody else will be sick of this one. I think there is a thread on Cardmodels.net

[Don Boose]

Wow! I like it! Somehow, I missed the thread for this one and I will certainly look for it..

Gosh, they were magnificent airplanes. I LOVE flying boats. The 314 and the Empires and the other streamlined ships were beautiful (Coronado, Mars, Kawanishi Emily, Sunderland, and so on), but I also love the fomby, many-strutted flying boats, as well.

You sure pick great subjects.

Don B.

[Barry]

Looks ok in the photos but the left wing is really a bit of a disaster at the wing root. I tried trebling up the root former and stuck it to the fuselage and then glued the wing skin over it seemed to have worked but of course I managed to knock it out of place and did not notice before the glue dried. The right wing was built to plan B. I cut the rib to leave a 1 mm gap and glued the back half to the wing skin. I then put a 1 mm keeper strip into the gap and glued in the front half of the rib quickly followed by wrapping the skin around the rib to the trailing edge, pulling the keeper out before the glue set. The whole wing was then pushed over the spar and glued to the fuselage. Not an elegant solution I know but what the heck you can judge for yourselves it needs a total rework anyway.

Next trick is to check the engine nacelles for fit which will not be so easy to get around.

Fuselage looks a bit better sitting at the right flight attitude.

I must admit I wish I had built the Boeing this way.

[Barry]

The nacelles actually fit pity I did not turn them inside out to loose the black edges

[Barry]

To carry on with the boredom not much more to go Tail and fin are on looks alright from a distance as usual pinned in place with a cocktail stick as it is at 90 degrees. Looks something like an Empire from well back.

Needs fairings on the fuselage joints very small ones probably make it look worse.

[jimkrauzlis]

Wotcher, bazzer!

For sure, I never tire of seeing your creations, mate. This looks to be another inspired creation...where do you find the time? Thank goodness you do, I could watch your build threads for ever!

Keep at it mate, she's coming out brilliantly!

Cheers!
Jim

[Barry]

Thanks Jim mate my wife sends me off to the back room with my bits of card and my fags cos I ain't much use at anything else good innit !!

Glad you found a few minutes to stop by.

[Don Boose]

Barry -- I'm quickly checking email at the Magic Brain in Cape May before heading out to fly kites on the beach with the grandsons and peeked in at this thread to check developments. It's a beauty! Great to see this flying boat take shape. More later, Don B.

[Barry]

In spite of the poor building I thought I might as well finish this one off. It actually has some promise needs a total rework though. It is not that far off looking like an Empire and I have wanted to build one for a long time.

[Golden Bear]

Yoiks, I didn't know that you have another build going on over here. It looks super from where I sit. I've no idea what it is but I like it. You're a productive sort.


Carl

[Don Boose]

I think it's terrific, Barry. The hand lettering and very slight irregularities detract NOTHING from the overall impression of this beautiful model -- indeed, they are rather like the residual pencil lines in a pen and ink sketch. May you build many more of these lovely ships of the air.

Don B.

[Barry]

Carl and Don thank you for the flowers

Don something to look at in the Magic Roundabout

I need to design some proper spars for the outer wings they don't look too bad but....nearly put them on backwards leading and trading edges almost look the same but they ain't. Having the float struts as an integral part of the spar worked well, had too beef up the rear one slightly. The floats are alright but could do with doubling the number of faces for a better shape. I will probably give it a sole on the leading part of the V hull to get rid of the joins which show too much.

As it can't sit on it's undercarriage I'm thinking of plastic circles to represent the props I refuse to have sat on it's ghastly trolley and make it look like a pregnant duck.

Not bad for a first try (as a stand off scale effort) I will build it a stand so I can remind myself of what needs altering on the next pass when I get into airplane mode again.

Anybody got a 3 view of one of the big US Navy birds don't care which

[John Bowden]

Well Barry.............. if you still want a challenge how about this one.:D

I got it from here: http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/grummansa16albatros.html

[Clashster]

Looking good, Barry! Always enjoy following your threads! Like the way the engines look...

[dansls1]

This model came out very nice looking. ;)

[Golden Bear]

Could you take a piece of foam and sculpt pockets into it for the hull and pontoons and then paint the foam to simulate water?

[Barry]

Thanks fellas

John found a great coastguard scheme for the Grumman it sort of shouts America.I will probably need your help again with the finishing.Good thing about flying boats you can guess the fuselage formers pretty well and there are loads of photographs of it on the net its got solid struts as well think it will be wheels up though...HAVE YOU SEEN that undercarriage.

[John Bowden]

Just give a holler!

[Don Boose]

Barry -- If you decide to build an Albatross, you might like to waste on hour on the film "Flight from Ashiya," starring Yul Brynner and Richard Widmark and dealing with the air-sea rescue squadron based at Ashiya Air Base in Japan in the early 1960s. It's really a terrible film in most respects (the plot is silly, the acting is wooden, the story is contrived and mawkish, the 1941 and 1942 flash back scenes give no real sense of the periods depicted, and most of the scenes filmed using models are ludicrous, especially the water landings and the take off after the rescue), but there are some good shots of real aircraft (Sikorsky UH-19 helicopter, Douglas DC-3, and, most important for your purposes, the HU-16 Air-Sea Rescue version of the Grumman Albatross amphibians) and a few of the non-model flying scenes are good.

Don B.

[John Bowden]

Dang Don I kinda like the movie............. well........ I WAS young and naive.

Kinda like watching the old TV shows from that period(Combat, 12 O-clock High,.... etc)............... LOVED them as a kid.............but they sure are kinda hocky now:o

True the Albatros was very well represented..............and if barry does one I was planning on doing a USAF Air Sea Rescue version, just because of this movie:D

john

[Don Boose]

Hi John. It's always tricky making criticism of books and movies, since another person may well see merit. I agree that the movie is fun to see. Actually, even the hokiest movies usually have some worthwhile scenes. I recently saw "Away All Boats" again and, although it is by no means a hokey film, the acting and continuity were weaker than I had remembered them. BUT the film really shows WWII amphibious warfare very accurately. Of course, the ships were still around (there are splendid shots of Fletcher-class destroyers Sigourney [DD 643] and Robinson [DD 562] steaming past with all guns firing in the gripping kamikaze attack scenes), the Navy cooperated fully, and most of the landing sequences were filmed during actual amphibious training at Vieques Island in Puerto Rico.

While we watched the film last month, whenever there would be a reference to the "Beachmaster" or "P-boats" or other amphibious terms of art, my wife, who had been research assistant and proof-reader/editor during the 3+ years that I had been working on my book on Army amphibious operations, would exclaim, "I know what that means! I actually know what that means!"

Incidentally, I think "Twelve O'Clock High" (both the original film and the TV series) still holds up very well. The original film is one of many that we show on Tuesday evenings at the Army War College as part of the Campaign Analysis Course ("Dr Strangelove" is playing next week).

And anyone planning on building a British J-K Class destroyer MUST watch "In which we serve."

In another thread, Dan (DANSLS-1) mentioned the TV series roughly based on the activities of Pappy Boyington's "Black Sheep" Marine fighter squadron in the Solomons. I thought the plot of that series was pretty far out, but the airplanes were wonderful. One of my late brothers-in-law, who served as ground crew with an aviation unit in the ETO, loved the show. He admitted that a lot of it was far fetched, but he said it still reminded him of his wartime service, and, he said, "Some of the things that happened in my squadron were crazier than anything they showed on that program."

Anyway, I look forward to seeing your and Barry's Albatri.

Don

[shrike]

There are a couple of private Albatrosses that show up at airshows here from time to time. One of them has a streamlined fairing on the starboard hardpoint to carry a Jetski as a tender.


Williams AFB (Now Mesa(Arizona)-Gateway Airport) was home to a USAF SAR squadron with HU-16's. I understand their major duty was more providing air-taxi service to the man mad lakes north of town than anything else<G>

[John Bowden]

Jeff Chandler............. Away All Boats..................."Get your stinking airplane away from my ship!"........... Away All Boats.................... Good Movie!

No Harm No Foul......... I was just joshing with ya............. but those old TV shows arn't as good to what as they were when I was a kid:(

I liked The Enemy Below............ Robert Mitchem............ Curd Jurgens............

But all time fav for best Airplane picture............. Strategic Air Command............... Jimmy Stewart and all those great planes!

john

[John Bowden]

Oh forgot............... Best Naval Aviation movie.............. Bridges of Toko Ri........

straight wings blue jets rock!................Grace Kelley wasn't half bad either:cool:

john

[Jimr]

Barry and Others-
This is a first post from a long-time (ages 5 to 68) model maker and total beginner in sending images by computer. Those interested in flying boats might try www.freewebs.com/aeroscale/biscarrosse.htm (http://www.freewebs.com/aeroscale/biscarrosse.htm) Works best on Ask.com. Leave off the Biscarrosse and get the site of Alex Bigey, a French model maker and photographer of wonderful models. Barry, the Black Swan is excellent. As for the Short Empire, I admire you for trying such a shape. I usually only combine paper with wood or composite materials. With a shape like the Empire nose my gut instinct is to form the curves over a spoon or other form: Which of course complicates the joints...
Anyhow, best wishes.

[rlwhitt]

Wow Jimr, that's a great site (even if the models ARE made out of that other stuff)! Good reference material. Thanks!

[member_3]

Goodness!! That site is a virtual list of "what I'd like to see done in paper"!!! Some great subjects and great modeling there.

[Barry]

Jimr

Nice site you suggested there. The bow leaves a lot to be desired did not fncy going horizontal with though might try casting it next time round or maybe do it petal style. This time I just wanted to check it would go together.

Good you've joined the site

[jimkrauzlis]

Wotcher, bazzer!

Another challenging project...when do you find the time to design and build all of these wonderful models? I think it's superb that you take on such different subjects and treat us with progress photos of each project! Brilliant, mate, just brilliant!

I'd say you are much too critical of your own work sometimes, that float plane came out great. We are often our own worst critic but this is a wonderful project that you have carried out quite well; I've not designed any models but have kit bashed a few often enough to appreciate how difficult it is to create something from scratch that even resembles the original, and your designs go way beyond my feeble efforts in that department. As your posts illustrate, there are many aspects of design that are not readily appreciated but quite important in the overall project, such as the support spars. I recall the many adjustments you made to the Boeing 314 in that department, and the final result is evidence of your untiring efforts. This float plane is another great example and we are fortunate that you favor us with posts on your work. I am sure I am one of a large following that always looks forward to seeing another great design thread by you!

Looking forward to more!

Cheers!
Jim

[Ashrunner]

But all time fav for best Airplane picture............. Strategic Air Command............... Jimmy Stewart and all those great planes!

john

I sure wish they would release this film in DVD.

[Barry]

Looks quite pretty John but then I am a sucker for seaplanes at least this one has a radome on the nose to take away the join line. Still trying to get this texturing lark right.

[Don Boose]

Fast work, Barry! It will be interesting to see this one develop.

Don B.

[Golden Bear]

Wow, this thread keeps on delivering. 12 O'Clock High still is a wonderful movie. All those beautiful planes and a good story too! I love Barry's seaplanes... and love them myself!

[Barry]

I think I am beginning to wish I had never started this I was reasonably happy with the nose not being a beak. It needs filling and painting as well.Things just went down hill from there on I got the texture misaligned completely so screwed up the strip behind the cockpit. I need another former behind the wing trailing edge to hold the shape. I think my eyesight is going as well, got the last former slanted and ruined it so this one gets stood on.

Any suggestions the top of the hull is a rounded square but it is difficult to indicate the point of curvature especially on a white hull. I used 160 gsm this time but it is probably too thick.

I think the real reason is I am no good at aircraft.

[Don Boose]

Don't give up, Barry! You are dealing with some really difficult compound curves here, but I bet you will figure it out and it will look great in the end.

Aging eyesight is a nuisance. Both my progressive lens trifocals and the close-up glasses I use make straight lines look curved. It's a nuisance!

Don

[Barry]

To carry on with the saga and at the risk of boring everyone to death 6 bays of the fuselage almost work. The 7th one needs yet another former adding I guess I keep thinking I can make a bigger pieces that end up impossible to form with card. The following bay needs simplifying I followed the precise details on the drawing but the resulting minute fold would probably be better indicated with shade and a line. I shall use this fuselage as a test for overlaying the keel before I stand on it

The good bit is the transition from the nose to the rounded edge square of the main fuselage is nearer being correct.

[Barry]

Amazing how much c**p a couple of bits of paper cover certainly improves the nose anyway

[Golden Bear]

I love watching you work on these flying boats, Barry. I also love the implied cursing that I hear when I read it! It is great that you are still working on it.


Carl

[Don Boose]

Definitely not boring! I'm always glad when there is a new posting to this thread. It's fun watching you work through and overcome the obstacles.

Of course, you're working with a really beautiful subject.

I like your garden in the background, too!

Don

[dansls1]

Coming along nicely, while I'm not as big of a fan of the flying boats as others, I can certainly appreciate the shape and the effort you are putting into it. Great job!

[Don Boose]

Earlier, John Bowden posted three views of the Grumman SA-16/HU-16 Albatross and we had some discussion of the film, "Flight from Ashiya," in which that aircraft starred.

By a remarkable coincidence, a Grumman Albatross has come to stay at our little airport in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. I did a photo walk around yesterday and, although the owner was not there, I talked with one of the instructor pilots at the air field. She did not have detailed information, but told me that it had been flown up by the owner, Mark Toigo, to be reconditioned for air show use. The tail number led me to a fair amount of information about the aircraft. If anyone is interested in pursuing the Albatross as a model, let me know and I will be glad to take more photos. Based on the information I could glean from a little time on the Internet, I put together an outline history, which I present here (with Barry's kind and understanding prior approval), along with some photos.

Don

Data on Grumman Albatross N99HU[1] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftn1)

Built in 1949 as Grumman construction number G-40 and delivered to the U.S. Air Force as an SA-16 with serial number 49-082.

Redesignated as an HU-16A in 1962.[2] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftn2)

Transferred to the Brazilian Air Force with serial number FAB 6537 on October 6, 1958.[3] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftn3)

Sold as PT-ZAZ for ferry by an Icelandic company in 1984.[4] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftn4)

Purchased by Aerocrafters, Inc. of Santa Rosa, California in 1996. Stored at Campo de Marte, Sao Paolo, Brazil.[5] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftn5)

Purchased in 2004 by Mark Toigo of AFB, Inc. of Bear, Delaware. Re-registered as N99HU on March 6, 2006.

Flown to Carlisle Airport, Carlisle, Pennsylvania in December 2007. Currently in airworthy serviceable condition in natural aluminum with wheel wells and other areas sprayed with green zinc chromate primer. Name “Dirty Girl” and female silhouette icon painted in dark blue on vertical stabilizer.[6] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftn6)

[1] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftnref1) Except as shown, information is from the Warbird Registry, available from www.warbirdregistry.org/albatrossregistry/albatross-49082.html (http://www.warbirdregistry.org/albatrossregistry/albatross-49082.html), accessed December 30, 2007.

[2] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftnref2) “Albatross Current Status,” available from www.hu-16.com/current.htm (http://www.hu-16.com/current.htm), accessed December 30, 2007; “U.S Systems of Aircraft Designation,” available from www.driko.org/usdes2.html#1962 (http://www.driko.org/usdes2.html#1962), accessed December 30, 2007.

[3] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftnref3) “USAF 1949 Serial Numbers, 49-069/100, Grumman SA-16A Albatross,” available from home.att.net/~jbaugher/1949.html (http://home.att.net/%7Ejbaugher/1949.html), accessed December 30, 2007.

[4] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftnref4) Ibid.

[5] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftnref5) Census of existing Grumman Albatrosses, available from: www.oldprops.ukhome.net/Albatross%20census.htm (http://www.oldprops.ukhome.net/Albatross%20census.htm), accessed December 30, 2007.

[6] (http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/#_ftnref6) Personal observation by Donald W. Boose, Jr., December 29, 2007 at Carlisle Airport, Carlisle, PA.

[Barry]

Don

This thread is where everybody can do an odd update or film or great pics of Grummans any more? any of the wheel wells ? etc etc thanks for the update

barry

[Don Boose]

Thanks Barry. It's a very useful thread.

Here are the wheel wells and one engine. If needed, I can go back next week and get closer shots. The originals are around 3,000 pixels across with good detail. They are squeezed down to 620 pixels across for posting here.

Don

[Don Boose]

Here is another wheel well shot, the vertical stabilizer markings, and a rear view with a bonus Cessna turning onto the active.

As you can see, it is a small air field. When we first washed ashore here from Japan in 1990 the then-owner had one of the "Tora Tora Tora" Vultee BT-13s modified to look like an Aichi Val dive bomber, an ex-Swiss Air Force DeHavilland Venom jet fighter, and an H-13 (the MASH helicopter). Regrettably, he died soon thereafter and the aircraft were sold off. I watched the faux-Val and the Venom fly out. Very exciting. The Val was flown away by a handsome man-woman couple wearing leather jackets and white silk scarves. The old "Vibrator" sounded like a steam engine rolling down the runway. The Venom was even more exciting -- all the sound and smoke of the shotgun-shell starter followed by the aircraft trundling down to the end of the runway and beyond in order to have maximum take-off room. The pilot then stood on the brakes and spooled the Ghost engine up to the maximum. Slowly, slowly, the black jet began to move forward, gathering speed and taking up most of the runway until it lumbered into the sky with an enormous roar.

Keep 'em flying!

Don

[Barry]

Hi Don

You got the butterfly brain going again and I was a bit tired of doing the rails for Tarawa so I went back to play with the Albatross again the texturing seemed to attach itself better this time. Not sure about the size of the wheels though. Took the data off a reasonable photograph so I hope it is fairly accurate.

[Don Boose]

Beautiful Coast Guard colors, Barry. The wheel look about right. Don

[John Bowden]

Hot Dam! Another Red and White plane! :D

She's looking good barry!

[Barry]

Does anyone know the nearest RGB numbers which correspond with the coastguard red and blue nearest I ever got to a coastguard cutter was half a mile. Just as I thought I would get near it disappeared out to sea at high speed. Might as well try and get it right.

[member_3]

You might want to try our plastic modeling friends. I have vague memories of a table that gave the RGB numbers for most of the Federal Specification 595 (FS 595) colors. A search on "digital FS 595 colors" will produce reams of information on the specification and give examples of the colors but may be less helpful in determining the RGB values. To get a match you would need the FS 595 color number (5 digits which determine finish, color family, etc.) If all this is familiar please excuse my ramblings...

[member_3]

Crude method - open this in a paint program and grab the color.

http://www.uscg.mil/systems/gse/energy/images/cg-racingstripe.gif

[Barry]

Thanks Ron crude we like nice and simple