Orion/MTV Asteroid Mission [Archive]

dhanners

05-31-2010, 08:41 AM

So here's a new one. After finishing the Keck Telescope, I figured it was time to launch (no pun intended) back into rockets. But nothing excited me. While digging through some piles of articles I had printed out and saved, though, I came across an article from spaceflightnow.com from last fall about Lockheed Martin's proposal for a crewed science mission to an asteroid using two Orion spacecraft docked nose to nose. I'd saved the article and artist's rendering because I thought it might be a cool build. Ton's updated Orion model was already up on his website and would be the perfect model for it.

The thought of building two Orions, though, really didn't excite me that much. I'm just not that big on repeating myself. Then I saw Jan's fine build-up of Ton's "MTV" -- the crewed version of ESA's Automated Transfer Vehicle, and a light bulb went off over my head: Why couldn't a crewed mission to an asteroid be an international undertaking, with an Orion spacecraft and a manned version of the ATV? The ATV has lots of habitable volume. You'd have another hatch, making EVAs easier.

That said, I've still got a few decisions to make, and suggestions are welcome. Among the things I've got to decide:

-- Should I just stick the spacecraft nose to nose, or should there be a module akin to the Apollo-Soyuz docking module? And if I go that route, should it be some module from the ISS? And which one?

-- If I do go the "docking module" route, should I build the MTV or the straight-ahead ATV?

-- For safety margins, redundancy (we're going all the way out to an asteroid, after all) should the MTV's four smallish engines be replaced with a larger one, ala Orion's service module motor?

-- The MTV on such a mission would obviously need its own power source, but the ATV's rectangular solar arrays wouldn't be suitable for such a mission because they'd wobble when the spacecraft is under thrust. (That's the reason Orion went from rectangular arrays to smaller decagon shape.) So should I just build another set of Orion arrays and stick them on, or go with something different -- and if so, what?

-- What other scientific instruments/antennas/etc. would be logical to add? I figure I'll add handrails to the outside of each spacecraft because if you're going EVA to head to an asteroid, you'll need them.

I decided to build the models in 1/48th scale instead of the 1/96th scale that Ton designed them in. To enlarge them, I put the files on a thumb drive and headed down to my local FedEx/Kinkos and had them double the size and print them out on 60-lb. stock.
An Oroion/MTV combination is purely theoretical. I'm not a rocket scientist, so I have no idea if such a vehicle could fly. Politics aside, there may be mechanical or engineering reasons why you couldn't dock an Orion with an MTV. From a modeling standpoint, you can do it; you just have to figure out how to build that in. To that end, I decided to substitute the docking tunnel with cardboard model rocket tube.

In the photos below, you can see the enlarged parts sheets, and my start on the capsule. Construction was pretty straightforward. You can also see the pill bottles that I fill with pennies to provide weight and make sure everything dries flat, which is particularly important when you're building a cone. The big cardboard tube is another thing I used to make sure the cone was circular when it dried. I reinforced the joint between the capsule and the top part with wood glue.

And though the hole in the nose looks ragged in the last photo, don't worry. Once I get the docking collar built, you won't see that part.

Swampfox

05-31-2010, 09:02 AM

I'm glad to see your using plastic pill bottles filled with pennies. Mine are filled with slugs, the kind punched out of electrical boxes. I learned this trick from my dads building of card models back in the later 50's. In fact I use the exact slugs he used back then.

I like the looks of your build enough that I'm headed over to spaceflightnow.com to download it.

I'll keep an eye on how your build is going.

bagpiper

05-31-2010, 09:30 AM

Very nice build so far. Why not put a small earth magnet in the nose then you can decide later if you want to join it to anything. Would give you a few more options.

Looking forward to seeing some more pictures of this models progress.

Thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Jim

vipers7

05-31-2010, 11:52 AM

great ideas: the MTV Orion Meeting as well as the magnetic trick. I can't wait to see the build...and very likely better than my build, which was wrong anyway...

Best regards

Vipers7

dhanners

05-31-2010, 12:10 PM

great ideas: the MTV Orion Meeting as well as the magnetic trick. I can't wait to see the build...and very likely better than my build, which was wrong anyway...

Best regards

Vipers7

You're too hard on yourself. Judging from the photos, that's a fine build.

The thing I'm wondering is, if I have some sort of docking/habitation module, would I need the manned version of the ATV? If they're using the module for habitation and/or ATV ingress/egress, why have the manned version?

And if I do re-purpose a module from the ISS for the docking module, which one would make the most sense? And then the extension of that would be who makes a model of it that I could enlarge to 1/48th scale?

Retired_for_now

05-31-2010, 04:14 PM

David,
A few opinions:
An MTV would be appropriate if it's a mobile part of the system (either rendezvousing with a destination or returning to Earth).
An ISS node would likely make the best docking module - possibly with appropriate adapters on the side ports. An alternative is either of the Russian ISS modules. Like the nodes, they also have access ports fore and aft as well as four side ports on their docking module sections. The Russian modules' ports are all Soyuz compatible (the de-facto standard) so might make the best choice. They also have various power/radiator panels already, so you'd not have to add them elsewhere.
The AXM ISS is very detailed, you might enlarge that. You can also fiddle with any of my ISS parts (BIG ISS or the four-foot ISS), though you'd need to add a lot of detail for what you're planning.
Yogi

dhanners

06-01-2010, 07:05 AM

Got the Orion's service module body done, so thought I'd add some photos....

Those of you familiar with my work probably know that I'm averse to rolling tubes. Yeah, it is kind of an odd aversion to have for someone who models rockets. I can roll tubes. I just don't like to. I'd rather use model rocket body tubes for the bodies of my models. They give the model strength and rigidity and it is a lot easier to keep everything straight. And when you hold the thing, there is little fear of crushing it.

While you can get model rocket body tubes in a wide variety of diameters, you won't always find one the exact diameter you need. That was the case with the Orion's SM, so I got the next bigger size and cut it down.

First, I determined how long of a piece I'd need, marked the cut line with blue tape (which served as a guide for the knife) and then cut it off. I sanded the cut smooth by grinding the tube on a piece of sandpaper. Next, I cut out the kit part for the SM body, laid it on the tube as a "skin" and marked where the edges lined up. The distance between the two edges is what I'd have to cut out.

Using a straightedge, I cut out the slice, leaving a "C"-shaped piece of cardboard tube. I closed the "C" and found I'd gotten slightly off in one of my cuts, so I used a sanding stick to even the one side out. Once it was even, I sanded both sides against the two-sided stick to get a perfect match. Every now and then, I'd stop and tape the tube closed and put the "skin" on to see where my fit was.

When I got the tube the perfect size, I used the piece I had cut out as backing and glued the two edges of the "C" together. I clamped them and put rubber bands around the new tube while it dried. The cardboard -- especially with the rubber bands around it applying even pressure on all sides -- wants to assume a circular shape.

Once it was dry, I cut out a circular piece (from chipboard) to fit in the bottom. Once I had cut out the disk, I cut a thin slice out of part of the edge to account for the backing piece used to join the "C". The disk fit right in; sure enough, the new body tube turned out circular.

I glued the kit "skins" on the body tube. I also glued on the capsule adapter, and set the thing on an upside-down bowl so it would dry in a circular shape.

Something started bugging me about the SM's lower body, though. One of the main visual elements the SM's lower body is that there are four lengthwise troughs (for lack of a better word) down the sides, and that's where the maneuvering thrusters and RCS quads are located. I decided to try and replicate that. I cut four pieces of chipboard, covered them with gray cardstock, then curved them around the SM's body and glued them on. Again, I used rubber bands to keep them adhered to the body while the glue dried.

Finally, I made the SM's engine nozzle. Using the kit parts as templates, I cut the pieces for the new nozzle out of a dark metallic paper that I have.

Next comes detailing the SM, building the solar arrays, adding handholds, etc.

dhanners

06-02-2010, 07:11 AM

Just added a few details last night. Designed some panel detail using the "Draw" function of Word, and printed out some panels and various covers and cut them out and glued them on. There are some aspects of the model I'm satisfied with, and some aspects I'm not. I'm thinking if I do a good enough job on the solar arrays, antenna and handrails, those things will grab the viewer's attention, and not the goofs.

Haven't glued anything together yet, but I thought I'd stack the thing up to see what it looks like.

Instead of using Ton's maneuvering thrusters, I re-purposed the RCS nozzles from Surfduke's Apollo -- as well as the little placards that went on the Apollo SM's RCS quads. Kind a tip of the hat to Apollo....

Speaking of RCS, I still have to add the RCS nozzles to the model. Ton advises using the ends of toothpicks, which I may wind up doing, but if anyone has any suggestions for how to model the things, I'm all ears. Or eyes.

dhanners

06-02-2010, 08:35 AM

I was unhappy with how some of the photos turned out -- they seem to show every flaw -- I went back and filled some gaps and burnished some seams. Didn't have time to take any new photos, though, as I had to get to work. It does look better, though.

merzo

06-02-2010, 11:33 AM

Welcomes

Read post congratulates Construction

Nice clean accurate work.

Monitors

I also plan to build ORION & Ares + Ares V .

I learn a lot in the division and the images

I'm sorry if you Google machine translation errors

hello Merz

dhanners

06-06-2010, 02:05 PM

Took a few days off for various family things (a graduation, among them) and now I'm back to the model.

This series deals with the solar arrays. In particular, Orion was envisioned to use ATK's UltraFlex Solar Arrays, a 10-sided array that folded up neatly and then deployed once in space. The UFSAs that come with Ton's models look pretty good as-is, but I decided I wanted to detail them a bit. Then I went crazy.

First, I had to figure out how to anchor them to the model, and I went with telescoping aluminum tubing for strength and durability. One tube goes all the way through the model, then the smaller tubes -- which hold the UFSAs -- fit into that tube. That way I can take them out when I need to, rotate them to the position I want them in, etc.

One of the things I've been trying to find out is the color of the back of the UFSAs. Ton makes the UFSA a two-piece affair, with a black backing. But in all the artists' renderings and photos I've been able to find, I can't find any that show a black backing. I've found white and silver, and some folks have told me it might even be gold Kapton. I've even seen photos of UFSAs with a clear film that have the arrays attached.

So I figured I'd try to get copies of all three -- silver, gold and clear. I used some silver and gold metallic paper to make copies of the arrays, and I also photocopied some onto some transparency film.

In real life, the arrays fold out, so each of the 10 panels is articulated in the middle and at both ends. Using my wife's light table (she's an artist) I lightly scored the back of each array, then turned it over and scored the front. Then I shaped it into the proper shape.

I used the kit parts as templates for the structure that protects the UFSAs during launch and flight; they are two pieces, one of which rotates around the center of the array to deploy it. If that makes any sense.

Once the arrays were bent to the proper shape, I glued them to the other pieces, then laid pennies around the edge so they'd dry relatively flat. I didn't want them perfectly flat, and I wanted them to retain a slight bend where they would actually be articulated on the real thing.

Next up is the high-gain antenna, gluing on the rocket motor and the various handholds, then it is on to the MTV!

Retired_for_now

06-06-2010, 02:17 PM

Superb (though slightly, worryingly obsessive) detailing. Looking forward to the launch and assembly of more modules for this mission.
Yogi

Wyvern

06-07-2010, 12:28 PM

this is magnificent, Yogi!

Wyvern

Retired_for_now

06-07-2010, 03:09 PM

Wyvern - agree. Dhanners is doing a superb job with his concept and the execution.

Yogi (green with fine motor skills envy)

dhanners

06-08-2010, 05:48 AM

Thanks for the kind words. Well, the Orion half of the project is done. I might tweak a thing here or there, but I finished it this morning. Now it is on the ATV/MTV (I still haven't decided which one to build yet) and then I'll build some sort of stand. Where were those card models of asteroids again?

milenio3

06-08-2010, 06:44 AM

What a magnificent project, Dan!

(NASA guys, are you watching?)

Retired_for_now

06-08-2010, 02:15 PM

Asteroid cut-n-build. Menu on right side of page with a selection of small bodies.
world maps with constant-scale natural boundaries (http://rightbasicbuilding.com/)

Yogi

dhanners

06-08-2010, 03:45 PM

Asteroid cut-n-build. Menu on right side of page with a selection of small bodies.
world maps with constant-scale natural boundaries (http://rightbasicbuilding.com/)

Yogi

Thanks! I appreciate it.

dhanners

06-09-2010, 06:54 PM

Started on the MTV, although now that I think of it, I shouldn't call it "Manned Transfer Vehicle" because it's not really transferring humans, as opposed to the Automated Transfer Vehicle's role of transferring cargo. So if someone wants to come up with a sexier name, that's ok with me.

Anyway, construction was pretty straightforward, so I didn't take any photos along the way. Couldn't find a model rocket tube that was the same diameter as the ATV's Integrated Cargo Module but I found one that was close and I cut it down to size.

Construction of the Service Module was also straightforward. I've decided to stick with the ATV's four rectangular solar arrays. Couldn't figure what to replace them with, and decided that the arrays are one of the key visual elements of the ATV. So from an engineering standpoint for a mission to an NEO the arrays may not be advisable, but that's what I'm doing anyway. I opened up the holes for the arrays' arms and cut a an aluminum tube to length and glued it in, then cut two shorter lengths of tube for the other arrays. Everything was supported and strengthened by sandwiching the tubes between thick cardboard. The arrays will be built on smaller aluminum tubes, which will then fit into the larger tubes.

I assembled the ICM and the crew module with an eye on putting a smaller-diameter tube down the middle. It will hold the dowel that will be used to connect the ESA vehicle with Orion.

I haven't glued the top and bottom parts together yet, but you can see what they look like stacked on top of each other.

But then I ran into a huge problem. When I went online to get more detailed photos/diagrams of the solar arrays, I found plenty of photos of the Jules Verne. In looking at them, it struck me that Ton -- who does excellent work, mind you -- perhaps designed his model before Jules Verne flew and didn't capture the bright white look of the insulation blankets that cover virtually all of the ATV's surface, including the bottom section, which Ton modeled in black. I could leave it alone and say, "Hey, it's a made-up vehicle anyway," or I could actually try and model it. But with what? Paper would be best, of course.

The blankets that cover the ATV have a ridged detail to them. I went to the grocery store to see if I could find any tissue, toilet paper, paper towels or napkins that had that texture. Sure enough, Cottonelle toilet paper does. But if you've ever tried cutting toilet paper with an X-acto knife -- even a new one -- you know it generally ends in disaster. So I taped a couple of pieces to some wax paper, which I then taped to a big foam meat tray, mixed up a 50-50 mixture of Elmer's glue and water, poured it into a spray bottle and sprayed the toilet paper. When it dries, it will hopefully be stiffer. I'll then cut it into squares and apply it to the vehicle with rubber cement.

Then again, I may just decide that the whole thing is too much work for this model and save the technique for a detailed model of the ATV that I hope to build someday....

dhanners

06-10-2010, 08:46 PM

Well, I peeled the glue-stiffened toilet paper off the wax paper and as you can see from the photo, it was pretty stiff. I took a "before" photo so you can see what I started with.

My original plan was to cut the toilet paper into small squares to replicate the individual blankets, but I kind of got bored with that approach, so I used bigger sections. But then I had to figure out some way to replicate the joints between blankets so, tired of gluing, I pulled out a sheet of self-adhesive paper and cut thin strips, then applied it to the vehicle.

The bottom looks different because A) the material under the paper is black and B) I used glue instead of the double-sided tape I switched to later. The glue seemed to eat through the toilet paper, which I guess is something I should have predicted would happen. So I may re-do the bottom.

Haven't decided whether to do the capsule or keep it a different color. It may look odd in its present color, though. I'll think about it overnight because right now, I'm tired and "Parks and Recreation" is on TV.

Jan Kytop

06-10-2010, 11:13 PM

Impressive detailing.
This is a superb project!

dhanners

06-11-2010, 08:51 PM

Well, I wound up using a textured craft paper to cover the capsule portion of the MTV. Got tired of using the toilet paper, and I decided I wanted to give the capsule a bit of a different look. Made a new hatch, added windows and RCS ports, access hatches, wiring tunnels and whatnot.

Going back to the Integrated Cargo Module and Service Module, I decided I didn't like the unevenness of some of my lines. They looked sloppy, so I took some of them off and re-did the "striping." Then I added a bunch of other bits and pieces. I utilized a lot of "creative gizmology" since it isn't a real vehicle and I could add things here and there.

Next I have to add the RCS thrusters (I'll use toothpicks, as I did on the Orion) and then the solar arrays. Still haven't figured out how to make the arrays so they'll stay straight, but I have a couple of ideas. Need to make another trip to the hobby shop....

Retired_for_now

06-12-2010, 07:46 AM

Simply stunning! Awaiting your return with more goodies.
Yogi

dhanners

06-12-2010, 08:15 AM

Thanks. It'll be a couple of days before I get back to it. Have to leave in a few hours to head up to Duluth; my wife's brother-in-law, his brother and a friend are setting off to sail their 41-foot sailboat to Europe and back. They'll be gone six months, so we're heading up for a literal bon voyage party. It's a bit more expensive pursuit than card modeling....

Retired_for_now

06-13-2010, 07:35 AM

Just a note - Hayabusa'a sample return capsule should land in Australia today (12 Jun) in about half and hour (14Z) with (maybe) a piece of asteroid Itokawa ...

Yogi

JAXA mission site: JAXA | Asteroid Explorer "HAYABUSA" (MUSES-C) (http://www.jaxa.jp/projects/sat/muses_c/index_e.html)

rbeach84

06-13-2010, 11:49 AM

<<snipped extra verbiage>>
Speaking of RCS, I still have to add the RCS nozzles to the model. Ton advises using the ends of toothpicks, which I may wind up doing, but if anyone has any suggestions for how to model the things, I'm all ears. Or eyes.
This may be 'blasphemy' but an easy way to form nozzles (at least smaller size ones) is to 'smash' mold from plastic sheet. Essentally, you take a suitable form, such as the end of knitting needle (tapered point, that is) and just pull some heated plastic sheet (any thermoplastic will do...) over it. Then cut out the resulting nozzle shape (which is nice and thin due to the 'drawing' over the form.) It's not paper, but to me, modeling is modeling.

Of course, this should now illicit a suitable paper technique from our more 'hard-core' brothers/sisters! :D

dhanners

06-13-2010, 06:02 PM

The thought of heat-forming the RCS nozzles had occurred to me, but I decided to go with the toothpicks since it seemed faster. Colored them with a silver Sharpie, cut them to the right size and glued them on.

My idea for the solar arrays was to use thin strips of brass super-glued to the small pieces of brass tubing that fit into the larger aluminum tubing anchored inside the MTV's Service Module. I guess I could've soldered them, but I decided to go with superglue and accelerator.

Once those pieces were dry, I colored them with a silver marker, then cut out the solar arrays and glued them to the brass strips. You can see the results.

I'm still not sure what to think of them. Maybe they'll grow on me, but I'm thinking that since the UltraFlex Solar Arrays can be made in various sizes, I could just get smaller ones copied. The big rectangular arrays just don't seem right for something that's moving under thrust.

I still have some antennas to add.

In the last few photos, you can see what the combined vehicle will look like.

WeeVikes

06-14-2010, 06:23 AM

Holy Crap!

That is freaking stunning! I am proud to be associated, even if distantly, with someone who does such great work!

I hope a mission like this actually takes place some day, if for no other reason because the hardware looks so cool!

Mike

dhanners

06-14-2010, 09:40 AM

Thanks for the kind words. I re-did the solar arrays, but I'll post the photos tonight. I stuck with the rectangular ones, but I used some 3D reflective mylar that looks like solar arrays (it is meant for Pinewood Derby cars) and added some detail. They look better, but they're still rectangular.

I figure I'll add a couple of antennas, build a base and then I'm done.

The hardware does look cool, but I think I built the MTV wrong. In looking at artists renderings on ESA's website, it appears that the proposed manned version of the ATV has a taller capsule, and it is mated with the Service Module, omitting the Integrated Cargo Module. In other words, it is a lot shorter.

For my version, I figured that for a long-duration mission to an NEO, you'd want more habitable volume, so it incorporates the ICM and we'll say the capsule part of the MTV really isn't a capsule. We can pretend.

Were I to do it again, I would probably build the Orion, the shortened MTV, and then stick them on either end of some sort of docking module, perhaps a Russian module from the ISS. I may still do that, but the vehicle is getting pretty long as it is, as you can see from the photos.

dhanners

06-14-2010, 07:13 PM

The MTV is pretty much done. As stated, I re-did the solar arrays. Added an antenna and a docking target on the nose. May add a high-gain antenna somewhere, but I haven't decided yet.

Now I have to figure out some sort of base for the MTV and Orion....

Retired_for_now

06-14-2010, 10:38 PM

Absolutely stunning!

You might try laminating some half-circles for cradles and mount them with one stick per spacecraft. I hope you're not even considering punching a hole down the middle of these works of art.

Yogi

dhanners

06-15-2010, 05:01 AM

I was thinking of either building a cradling stand (one cradle per vehicle) out of black foam core board, or using small-diameter brass tubing glued to a wood base as a stand. For the latter, I'd have to drill a small hole in the underside of each vehicle to accept the tubing, but it would be discreet and could be mistaken for a vent of some kind. I've done that on other models.

Retired_for_now

06-15-2010, 07:43 AM

David,
Variations on cradles for your consideration:

48259

48260

48261

I laminated 6-8 strips of card in a semicircle around the model (tightens up as the glue sets) and glued a tube to the bottom of the laminated semicircle. Slip tube on stick, model sets into cradle.

Yogi

dhanners

06-15-2010, 12:18 PM

Those stands look cool, Yogi. I'll have to mull the possibilities....

dhanners

06-17-2010, 07:00 PM

Got the models done and the stand built. Just went with a simple wood stand and metal tubing, painted black. So, without further adieu, I present to you...

Orion/Cousteau Near Earth Object Mission I

I named the ESA portion Cousteau, after the famous ocean explorer. He was European and a lot of the European astronomers' names are already taken for spacecraft.

And yeah, the solar arrays are out of synch; Orion's point one way and Cousteau's point the other. I'll fix that, but I thought I'd get the photos posted.

As mentioned before, were I to do it over, I'd make Cousteau shorter (as the ESA actually envisions the crewed version of its ATV) and I'd connect it and Orion with a module from the ISS.

Retired_for_now

06-17-2010, 07:07 PM

Beautiful build and excellent presentation. Lot's of options on how you put together the mission - maybe that's why we haven't done it yet.

Yogi (still in awe of your detailing ...)

fructose1

06-17-2010, 09:57 PM

Wow, looks awesome!

I hate to nitpick, but your solar panels face each other. Someone's not getting any power in the configuration. :)

Jan Kytop

06-17-2010, 11:32 PM

Beautiful model , but what about a lander to land on the asteroïd?

dhanners

06-18-2010, 06:09 AM

I hate to nitpick, but your solar panels face each other. Someone's not getting any power in the configuration. :)

Nitpick noted. That's why I mentioned that matter in my original post with the photos, along with saying I intended to fix it but I just wanted to get the photos up.

fructose1

06-18-2010, 08:58 AM

D'oh! That's what I get for not reading the whole post. :)

dhanners

06-18-2010, 10:43 AM

Beautiful model , but what about a lander to land on the asteroïd?

LockMart's proposal for an NEO mission didn't have a lander, and you wouldn't really need one. The NEO's gravity is low enough that you could just park the spacecraft nearby and head over with an MMU-type device.

SAustin16

06-19-2010, 06:48 AM

Dave,

I just heard that sound of the bar being raised ... again.

Outstanding modeling of a great subject.

dhanners

06-21-2010, 08:23 PM

Thanks again for the kind words. I thought I had come up with the Orion/MTV concept all on my own, but today I stumbled across a NASA report in the L2 section of NASAspaceflight.com that discusses this very vehicle. The 726-page report, "Shuttle Derived Heavy-Lift Launch Vehicle Assessment," is dated June 8 and buried within it is a discussion about the possibility of an NEO mission using Orion and a crewed version of ESA's ATV. They even have some diagrams.

The model was just a guess on my part. Oh well. Even a broken clock is right twice a day....

dhanners

06-27-2010, 09:35 AM

Well, if you're going to fly a mission to a Near-Earth Object, then you need an NEO to fly to. Following the link Yogi provided, I built a model of the asteroid Eros. (The NEO most often mentioned in such a mission is NEO 2001GP2, but I couldn't find a model of that....)

I printed out the model, concluded it was just too darn small so I took it to my local FedEx/Kinkos and had it enlarged 140 percent; that's about the largest I could go and still get it on an 11x17 sheet.

These models are pretty good, but they're not easy; in fact, the photos you see are of my second attempt. I cut out the model and then introduced curves into it by placing it upside down on a computer mouse pad and rubbing it with a wooden ball. That helped.

Then I took my hole puncher and punched out a bunch of small circles. I glued the circles every 1 cm or so along the edges of the model; they would be tabs for gluing the edges together. Once that was done, it was time to start joining the edges.

I'd glue a couple of centimeters at a time and let it dry, then glue a strip of copy paper over the seam on the inside. Once that was dry, I'd burnish down the edges of the seam. This was slow work, but for the most part, it went together ok.

I had sprayed the paper with a matte finish before cutting it out, but I still think it has too much of a sheen, even after spraying it again once it was assembled. I may look for something else to spray it with.

Next I have to figure out where to put it on the base with Orion/Cousteau. It's not in the same scale as the models, so that may throw some people off. Still, it's a cool little model.

Ashrunner

06-27-2010, 10:59 AM

Excellent work, Dave. I can't see a seam anywhere on it.

dhanners

06-27-2010, 11:27 AM

Excellent work, Dave. I can't see a seam anywhere on it.

Thanks for the kind words, but trust me, the seams are there....

Retired_for_now

06-27-2010, 06:41 PM

The seams may be there, but they don't stand out and you've done a superb job of smoothing everything. One great lookin' little 'tater.

BTW - I wouldn't worry too much about the sheen. Aren't most of these buggers about as dark as a piece of coal?

Yogi

revision - wiki says Eros albedo is .25, about as bright as the grass in your yard. Seems pretty bright ...

Paper Kosmonaut

06-28-2010, 03:51 PM

This build is beyond my expectations of what is possible in paper.. Beautiful!
I learned some nice stuff about toilet paper in an way I never thought I could put it to use! Thanks for that!

dhanners

06-28-2010, 04:51 PM

This build is beyond my expectations of what is possible in paper.. Beautiful!
I learned some nice stuff about toilet paper in an way I never thought I could put it to use! Thanks for that!

Thanks. I'm a big fan of "mixed media" models, particularly when it comes to paper because there are so many different kinds of paper.

I'm giving some thought to diving in and building a straight-ahead ATV, probably Jules Verne. Need to track down some good detailed photos showing the top of the vehicle, though. There are a lot of little gadgets up there.

the hermit

06-28-2010, 10:19 PM

i really like the model as it is,
it really reminds me of 2001 for some reason,

thanks for the great build

rightbasicbuilding

09-09-2010, 12:59 PM

dhanners

09-09-2010, 05:57 PM

Hey Dhanners,
Great job on putting my Eros map together!
I'm happy to see you found it doable -- they are not easy things to put together, and your trick with the dot-tabs is a neat improvement in technique.
Chuck

A little patience is all it took, and thanks for designing and offering the model, Chuck. I'm currently building a more "proper" Plymouth Rock mission (with a standard Orion and an Orion Deep Space Vehicle docked nose to nose) and I plan on having them hovering over Eros. Yeah, the models are 1/96th scale and your Eros model isn't, but I think it'll look cool.

Thanks again for the model.

rightbasicbuilding

09-10-2010, 04:55 AM

Dhanners,
Since the asteroid object is (I assume) much too small, relative to your spacecraft, perhaps you could set the scene up as a diorama, the effect being to make the spacecraft seem to be in the foreground, and the asteroid seem to be in the far distance.
With a little trigonometry, you could even figure out the distance between spacecraft and asteroid required to create the apparent relative size. That is, the title of the diorama would be, "spacecraft x approaching Eros at a distance of y miles." You get the idea.
Chuck

dhanners

09-10-2010, 05:11 PM

rightbasicbuilding

09-11-2010, 05:00 AM

Well Dhanners, then we have a challenge!
Surely there are those on this forum who are adept in trig; as Robert Frost liked to say: we'll work together, though we are apart.

First, We need four numbers; we'll use with them to make two scale calculations.
A) What size is your spacecraft model.
B) What size is the actual spacecraft.
C) What size is your Eros model.
D) What size is Eros.
And, since each object is to scale within itself, we'll need only one dimension per object; let's use the longest dimension.

The answer to D is 34.4 kilometers.
(This is got from 433 Eros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros) in the "physical characteristics" box on the right. [Hey look, I'm on wiki! They list one of science abstracts under Further reading. Thanks, cyber-cloud.])

We'll need common units. (Perhaps, since we'll be using ratios for nesting, one kind of common units for A/B, and other common units for C/D, but perhaps not. I'm not so good at abstract math. I'm far more confident when I can do things geometrically, because the picture keeps things organized. We can always convert to complete common units if we need to.)
So, thanks to Wolfram|Alpha—Computational Knowledge Engine (http://www.wolframalpha.com/index.html) for number crunching,
34.4 kilometers = 21.38 miles = 112,890 feet = 1,355,000 inches.

You say what are A, B, and C.

Now we come to the diorama effect.
We need an E dimension; how far apart (center to center) will the two objects be?
Figure this out pragmatically, just by what looks good. Then we'll check it and see if it is realistic. You said you made Eros on an 11x17 sheet, so it must be about 6 inches or so in length. I'm guessing something on the order of 24 inches between spacecraft and asteroid, but you say.

And now we reach the geometry, the trig.
We'll nest those two scale calculations within a pair of expanding rays (two straight lines radiating from a single point) and, finally, measure the distance between them to find what I called "y" in the post above, the apparent distance between the objects. But I'm getting a bit jumbly, working this all out in my head. Some of the possibilities for positioning may be self-contradictory. There may be only one particular distance the two models must be placed apart.
Post A, B, & C. and then I'll puzzle on them for a bit.

And then there's always the chance that another reader is an expert on this sort of thing and can show us the procedure straightforwardly.

This should be a fun little problem to solve.

Retired_for_now

09-11-2010, 06:49 AM

David/Chuck,
Don't we need a planned "viewing distance" for the diorama? Then, the "distance" to Eros is derived from it's angular size (as is the scale distance to the spacecraft) which is directly related to the scale you're working in. The asteroid/spacecraft separation can be picked to suit and the "scale" distance to the asteroid becomes the number to solve for.
More simply, a 6" model of a 1,355,000 inch asteroid is 1:225,833 scale (I'd claim a record with the Braille-scale crowd, David). So, viewing the Eros model at 1-foot should be the same as viewing reality from 225,833 feet (37 nautical miles) - less the hard radiation and vacuum. In the same way, viewing the spacecraft from a nominal 3-foot distance is a scaled 144 feet (at 1:48 scale it 48 feet of "real" separation for each foot of viewing distance).
So, spacecraft viewed from 3 feet with one foot between the spacecraft and Eros puts Eros at a 4 foot viewing distance - scaled to just about 150 miles. The realtionship should be linear - Eros scaled distance should be 37 miles for every foot between your eye and the asteroid model.

More generally for any model, a one foot (or one meter) viewing distance is equal to viewing the "real thing" at the reciprocal of the scale - i.e. 48 feet (or meters) for your 1:48 scale model. The relationship is linear so you can just multilpy things for longer distances.

Yogi (standing by for correction/clarification from the less rusty mathematicians)

BTW - love your stuff Chuck. Are you going to complete the series of "visited" small bodies?

SAustin16

09-11-2010, 09:22 AM

dhanners

09-11-2010, 11:45 AM

Dave, Maybe I missed it in your posts, but your linear solar arrays are really stunning. What material did you use? Christmas wrapping of some type perhaps?...the pattern is excellent and are eye-catching.

Thanks for the kind words, and I'll get back to the rest of you guys re: the trigonometry. We may be over-thinking this.

As for the solar arrays, I used a self-adhesive holographic material made for Pinewood Derby applications. It's like this stuff:
Holographics Carbon Galaxy (ppr10069) Pine-Pro Construction Kit Pinewood Derby (http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/ppr/ppr10069.htm?source=froogle)

Retired_for_now

09-11-2010, 03:25 PM

re: the trigonometry. We may be over-thinking this.

Yah, I think you could position the models in the diorama where they look right to your eye. The only calculation becomes a "nice to have (but IPMS winning?) detail" stating the scaled distance to the asteroid on your display. That should be a straightforward result based on the nominal viewing distance for the diorama.
I did Eros to plans on a letter-sized page and it came out right at 5"' so your 140% should be 7" long. Using Chuck's Eros dimensions the scale is 7:1,355,000 or 1:195,571.

So, each foot of viewing distance between your eye and the Eros model is 32 nautical miles.

The key is the viewing distance between you and Eros, not the separation between the diorama components. Just enough distance to make them visually separate should convey the idea.
Yogi

SAustin16

09-11-2010, 07:49 PM

Thank you for the link to the decals. I'm going to check that out.

rightbasicbuilding

09-14-2010, 06:58 PM

"The key is the viewing distance between you and Eros, not the separation between the diorama components."
Yogi is exactly right about that. I'm not so strong on concepts; better with practicalities.
And experience with anamorphic sculpture (think diorama on LSD). So, Dhanners, send the dimensions (how much trouble can it be?) and I'll see what I come up with for distances.
Chuck

rightbasicbuilding

09-15-2010, 05:46 AM

Wait! I've pondered that for a minute, and now I think Yogi is only half right.

True, it is the distance from viewer to Eros that is important, but it is also the RELATIVE size compared to the spacecraft that the diorama viewer is experiencing. As in the sentence "Spacecraft A seen approaching Eros from a distance of x miles."

If it were only the distance to Eros, then the spacecraft could be any size, and should be full-size for the one-foot-equals-32-miles rule to be correct.

But the spacecraft is at some scale, say 1:10, and the same scale-factor should be applied to Eros too.

Right?

Waitin' on you Dhanners, for some numbers to crunch. Then I can make a diagram and perhaps settle this.
Chuck

dhanners

09-15-2010, 06:12 AM

Sorry for the delay. The Orion/Orion DSV combo is in 1/96th scale and is 9.5 inches (21.8 cm) long. I can't recall the scale the Eros model was originally offered in, but I printed it out at 140 percent and the finished model is 4 7/8ths inches (12.4 cm) long. So there you have it.

Retired_for_now

09-15-2010, 06:48 AM

For the diorama perspective - since the scale of the asteroid and spacecraft differ you can't get a consistent answer with the relative sizes of the models. Eros is 4.875:1,355,000 scale or 1:277,949 scale - so one foot of viewing distance to the asteroid is 277,949 scale feet or about 46 nautical miles.

The spacecraft is 1:96 so each foot of viewing distance is 96 feet in scale. The relative sizes don't connect.

Best you can do is get some visual separation between the two (you'll have to ask one of our artists how best to trick the eye here). Then, the eyeballs-to-asteroid-model distance sets the condition - the viewer is assumed to be effectively right next to the spacecraft (tens of feet in scale) with the asteroid in the far distance.

For example, assuming 3 feet from your eye to the spacecraft and 4 feet total to the asteroid (one foot beyond the spacecraft model) we've squeezed reality down so we have a view of the asteroid at 184nm pulled in next to a view of the spacecraft at about a 300 foot distance. The two are incompatible due to the differing scales - but it does allow us to shorten the separation between the two models to get a practical diorama.
Yogi