Card Model contest rules- a discussion

[Erik J]

I think it's time to come up with a set of rules and guidelines for card model contests. This topic started in the Fine Scale Paper Modelers (FSPM) area, which is dedicated to International Plastic Modelers Society (IPMS) and card models within that arena. So, go there to discuss card models in an IPMS competition.

A contest for card models similar to an IPMS competition needs different rules, because plastic and paper models are so different. A plastic model is more like a canvas upon which the modeler paints with little variation in construction choices. Craftsmanship standards and use of non-styrene materials have changed as the plastic hobby evolves.

IPMS and RC contests have had groups break away because of trophy hunters, who will bend and break rules to get another ribbon, so we will eventually experience similar problems, I am sure.

Paper models are more like stick & tissue or RC models, in that both are constructed from more basic materials. For that reason using flying model contest rules for a reference would also be helpful.

So, to get things started, here are some thoughts to consider.

Commercial card models are available printed in sheets, in books, or can be downloaded to be printed by the modeler. This raises the first issue- pirate copies. How would a contest director know if an entered model was an allowed printing or if it was a downloaded pirate copy?

There are a lot of free models available for download, and some of them are pirate copies with the designer/manufacturer copyright information deleted.

Some people design and build card models from scratch with no intent to publish a design or kit.

Well, that kinda summarizes card model sources, so what categories for a contest seem appropriate?

The type of model, such as aircraft, armor, vehicle, etc can be discussed as we move along, but for now we need to concentrate on what to do with a model that is carried in and set on the table to be entered in the contest.

Suggested major categories (not model type) are:
Built straight from the kit with no visible changes.
Built from kit with upgrades (formed canopy, new instrument panel, new paint scheme, etc.)
Built from scanned sheets of a commercial kit the entrant owns (with & without 'improvements').
Built from a commercially available kit download (i.e. from Digital Card Models and Ecardmodels.com).
Built from a free download model with no changes.
Built from a free download model with image clean up, recoloring, and upgrades.
Scratch designed AND built by the contestant.
Built from parts from multiple card models (called 'kit bashing' in the plastic world).

These categories certainly are not all but are a place to start.

As with IPMS, use of non-paper materials, including wood, needs to be regulated, i.e develop new categories for mixed media.

Rules for models from a download or scanned commercial kit may be unworkable because of copyright issues.

One category doesn't compete against another category. Each category has awards. As with most model contests, there would be best of show, best craftsmanship, peoples choice, etc.

With that, let the discussions begin and hopefully we can end up with a basic set of contest rules to be tried in upcoming regional and local contests.

- Erik

[B-Manic]

You raise some interesting points Erik. However, the FSPM Lounge would be a more appropriate place for this type of discussion.

~ cheers
Douglas

[Ron0909]

No offence at all to anyone is intended here but...somehow the fun seems to be going the way of the dodo. Just an opinion

[B-Manic]

No offence at all to anyone is intended here but...somehow the fun seems to be going the way of the dodo. Just an opinion

I agree Ron, I like building models not rules. I find rules can be limiting in creative endeavors. Just my opinion. :)

[Erik J]

Well, cgutzmer, the FSPM moderator, sez the FSPM is only for IPMS related issues and asked for this kind of discussion be moved elsewhere, so here it came to rest.

I would think that eventually IPMS will include paper models, but in the meantime it is in our interest to come up with some kind of framework to prevent contests from getting ugly and fights started.

If we have a common set of rules the competitions will stay fun and not conflict with each other. If there is already a nice set of contest rules then we can end this discussion pretty quick.

cheers, and don't forget to crease before folding!

- Erk

You raise some interesting points Erik. However, the FSPM Lounge would be a more appropriate place for this type of discussion.

~ cheers
Douglas

[Ron40]

I concur with Ron909 and B-manic. If this is what is
required for adhering to IMPS rules I don't think you
will have many paper modelers interested. Ron

[Ron0909]

I used to have this little website by the name of Cardmodels.net. Rick Steffers and I hosted many competitions along with many of the paper model publishers and designers. To be honest...we never had any issues during or after any model contest. I'm not sure about any contests here however, to my knowledge there haven't really been any issues either that have required such stringent rule sets. I think (again just an opinion and we all know what opinions are like :)) that paper modelers in general are an honest sort of folk that have governed themselves quite decently. I used to have about 100 printed kits. I scanned in almost all of them as I never trusted myself to build a printed kit. Due to personal reasons all my kits were abandoned. With this kind of ruling it sounds like the onus would be on me to provide proof that I didn't pirate the models prior to participating in any contest should I use my files. I like to build and I like to share my building techniques with others and I just feel that bringing in any rules like this would be counter productive in an environment like this. Few enough folks post as it is or join contests out of fear or for whatever other reason. The others items..categories etc are normal contest issues. Anyways, I'm rambling again
Ron

[SJPONeill]

KISS works for me...ultimately in competitions where members vote to decide winners, i vote based on which most catches my eye regardless of its origins (i.e. free, printed, downloaded, stock, scratch etc)

[Erik J]

You are right- we don't need stringent rules. I put forth all the ideas that I could think of. This hobby is really growing, so we should think about using contests to showcase and promote card models like the plastic guys do.
One easy way would be to have the usual categories, such as aircraft, armor, cars, etc and with no restrictions on the model source.
It would be hard for my 1:100 Tiger II to compete against the 1:25 GPM Tiger, so some sub-categories would be in order.
I too scan my kits for the same reasons as you and like to fix the awful colors in the early Maly kits. I'd like to enter a scanned and recolored kit and maybe go for a ribbon (never got one in plastic, either).
I was thinking about contests where the models are sitting on a table and hadn't really considered the friendly contests like those in this forum, where we send in pictures of a completed model.
Keep on rambling...

- Erik
I used to have this little website by the name of Cardmodels.net. Rick Steffers and I hosted many competitions along with many of the paper model publishers and designers. To be honest...we never had any issues during or after any model contest. I'm not sure about any contests here however, to my knowledge there haven't really been any issues either that have required such stringent rule sets. I think (again just an opinion and we all know what opinions are like :)) that paper modelers in general are an honest sort of folk that have governed themselves quite decently. I used to have about 100 printed kits. I scanned in almost all of them as I never trusted myself to build a printed kit. Due to personal reasons all my kits were abandoned. With this kind of ruling it sounds like the onus would be on me to provide proof that I didn't pirate the models prior to participating in any contest should I use my files. I like to build and I like to share my building techniques with others and I just feel that bringing in any rules like this would be counter productive in an environment like this. Few enough folks post as it is or join contests out of fear or for whatever other reason. The others items..categories etc are normal contest issues. Anyways, I'm rambling again
Ron

[Werner Smuts]

No rules then?

[Retired_for_now]

No rules then?

But seriously - I'd say go with what you enjoy.

Some folks enjoy competition, but that requires some kind of rules to set the bar. This takes you down the road of rules-writing (lawyer up folks).

Then there are builders who'd just like to share what they've done in return for the viewers' comments and enjoyment. "Compete" in the display only category or fill some display cases at your local school/library/etc.

For others, just build and enjoy the process and result yourself.

I'm in the middle - opting for a little anarchy. If I ever plan far enough ahead to have a nice model ready (and not given away) I might enter something in the local IPMS show just to see what kind of grit in the gears it produces. So far, my only "competition" was to drop off a couple of FG lighthouses for display and pass on.

Yogi (to each their own - as long as they post pictures for the rest of us)

[jagolden01]

No offence at all to anyone is intended here but...somehow the fun seems to be going the way of the dodo. Just an opinion

Absolutely agree, Ron. Too many rules, way too many possible categories. I just want to build and watch builds.

Even for the contest we have, a few basic rules, laid out at the beginning of each contest is sufficient. And the most important of those rules should be to have fun.

[lepercan]

Think I'll model a while ...
Lep

[mbauer]

I concur with Ron909 and B-manic. If this is what is
required for adhering to IMPS rules I don't think you
will have many paper modelers interested. Ron

Yes, tis true for just building.

But, sometimes it is nice to be rewarded for an excellent build. The POTW series is a great case in point.

If someone wants to find another level of fun by competing, then let them.

Paper models offer so much more detail and better part fit than plastic, that they need to be allowed to compete.

All areas of the cardmodeling need to be addressed. Everything from repaints, to adding other than "paper" material to the builds. Look at all of the discussions here at PM on the different techniques used to add aluminum finishes to exact repaints of certain real life objects.

Since there are so many different tries at getting a Natural Aluminum Look, it could be judged all on its' own merits...

Paper offers many ways to make different objects. How about a toys and automata catergory?

This is an oppurtunity to expand our hobby, we should use it to the fullest!

Best regards,
Mike Bauer

[rickstef]

What we need to do is the following.

Ask our Czech and Polish brethern, those who compete on a regular basis, for some guidelines or hints.

I have seen pictures of their contests, and they are all well attended, and there are some really nice prizes awarded

Rick

[Ron0909]

Sorry if I sounded so negative. I just like to nip anything in the bud that could possibly alienate people instead of including everyone. The idea of organized competitions in itself is really cool! We all seem to be in awe when Rick does his live webcam and the photos come back from the convention. Imagine being at a competition with all that good stuff and all of it in paper :) As long as the fun remains!

Ron

[Erik J]

Maybe I used references to IPMS too much. The goal here is to define a set of rules for card model competitions with no links to IPMS. Integrating card models into IPMS is a topic for someone else to explore.

The suggestion to see how the Czech and Polish contests are managed is a good one, so hopefully we will get some input from builders over there.

- Erik

[nebeltex]

my biggest gripe about contests is that often the rules are not stated clearly enough at the beginning. that can be fixed with standardization. my second biggest gripe is about deadlines. sometimes organizers stretch deadlines. this is usually because someone spent so much time building a beautiful model but just couldn't finish it in time. i can sympathize, but that is not fair to those who did finish in time. if it isn't fair, it isn't really a contest...

[Rutek63]

Perhaps I can be of some help.
Rules of paper model competitions in Poland differs a bit between each other, but basically it goes like this:

They compete in two classes: STANDARD and OPEN.

STANDARD CLASS is basically the same as OTB in plastic. You build the model from the kit, using all the extra materials that the instruction of the kit allows you to include. Paint is not allowed except for painting the edges and to hide the seams, if you want to. No models built from copies of the original kits are allowed.

Then they divide STANDARD CLASS into age groups:

CHILDREN - below 13 years of age.
JUNIOR - from 13 to 18 years of age
SENIOR - above 18 years of age

and then come the categories:

SHIPES
BATTLESHIPS
SAILING VESSELS
SUBMARINES

GLIDERS
SINGLE ENGINE AIRPLANE
MULTI ENGINE AIRPLANE
JETS
AIRPLANES IN THE 1:48 and 1:50 scale
HELICOPTERS
ROCKETS

WEELED VEHICLES
RAIL VEHICLES
TRACKED VEHICLES

ARCHITECTURE
FIGURES

OPEN CLASS is not divided in to the age groups. Every technique and material is allowed to make your model look more like the real thing, as long as you use a paper model kit as the base. The categories are basically the same. Architectural models and figures are usually excluded from the OPEN CLASS. In every case of every model you have to provide judges with the original kit or a copy of it.

This is the basic structure. I'm sure you can work with this provided necessary changes.

[Erik J]

my biggest gripe about contests is that often the rules are not stated clearly enough at the beginning. that can be fixed with standardization. my second biggest gripe is about deadlines. sometimes organizers stretch deadlines. this is usually because someone spent so much time building a beautiful model but just couldn't finish it in time. i can sympathize, but that is not fair to those who did finish in time. if it isn't fair, it isn't really a contest...

You made an excellent point- the rules aren't always clear enough. If we come up with a clean set of rules, contest directors won't have to create their own on the spot. The other issues you raised are the usual chaos and poor scheduling seen in countless model contests. As for extending deadlines, it might be done because so few people entered or perhaps the original date didn't give enough time to read the rules and then build a model to enter. I"d think putting the entry deadline way out would result in no need for deadline extensions. As you so well put it, a contest isn't successful unless it is FAIR.

- Erik

[Erik J]

Thanks, These rules should also work well in the US. I have several questions:
"In every case of every model you have to provide judges with the original kit or a copy of it"
Does this mean you must confirm the model was built from a commercial kit?
In Open class can you scan the kit you own, repaint, print, build, and enter it?
Is there category for downloaded free models?

- Erik

[Rutek63]

Does this mean you must confirm the model was built from a commercial kit?
Not exactly. The copy of the kit is part of the documentation, that also may include photographs of your progress while building. It is in your interest to provide judges with this things, so they fully understand the effort that you have put into the model. Let me give you an example:

You have built a model of an airplane, you closed and buried the seams of the engine cover, so the cover looks now like a one piece. To understand your effort judges would like to see how that cover looked in 2D.


In Open class can you scan the kit you own, repaint, print, build, and enter it? Is there category for downloaded free modelsI don't know. I think they don't practice this kind of a thing. In open class they go for the scratch built parts and classic modeling techniques.

When they look for the kit to be built for the competition, they automatically look for something that they can impress the judges with, So what model do you think they will go for? Commercial or downloaded? I never saw a category for downloaded models in the competition rules in Poland.

I,m going to ask these questions on the Polish "Karton net Work". Maybe we'll learn something new.

[Erik J]

Not exactly. The copy of the kit is part of the documentation, that also may include photographs of your progress while building. It is in your interest to provide judges with this things, so they fully understand the effort that you have put into the model. Let me give you an example:

You have built a model of an airplane, you closed and buried the seams of the engine cover, so the cover looks now like a one piece. To understand your effort judges would like to see how that cover looked in 2D.


I don't know. I think they don't practice this kind of a thing. In open class they go for the scratch built parts and classic modeling techniques.

When they look for the kit to be built for the competition, they automatically look for something that they can impress the judges with, So what model do you think they will go for? Commercial or downloaded? I never saw a category for downloaded models in the competition rules in Poland.

I,m going to ask these questions on the Polish "Karton net Work". Maybe we'll learn something new.

Yes, it will be very interesting to hear how the Polish builders deal with free downloaded models.

A contest with only card models in it would have judges familiar with the hobby, so impressing a judge would be different than impressing an IPMS judge who only knows about plastic kits. As with scale RC model contests, a 'documentation' package could be used to explain techniques and parts fabricated that enhanced the model. There would be no need to provide a 3-view and other 'proof of scale' needed in the RC contest.

Proof of authenticity that the model came from the commercial kit could include providing the kit printed cover and even some of the kit scraps. In Open Class, where a scan and repaint of the kit would be allowed, the contestant would have to present the original kit. If that kit had already been build, it would raise an interesting copyright question and perhaps disqualify the model.

Speculating on rules for downloaded models- the contestant would have to provide documentation for the model download source (i.e the web site) and something on the plan or instructions that shows that it is free. If the site no longer exists or if the model is not familiar to the judges, they will have to decide if the entry is valid or not. The burden of proof should be on the contestant. "I got it a long time ago from somewhere" would not be acceptable. So, it looks like a 'Downloaded Free Model' category needs to be added to 'Standard Class' and 'Open Class'.

Again, none of these issues are intended for IPMS and how they deal with card models in their contests.

- Erik

[cotlet]

To the contrary of some of the posters, I think competitions (I'm not talking about competitions on the forum) are great way to promote the hobby. They could be also a drive engine for some competitive folks out there to improve their skills, try new things and build better and more amazing models. I don't doubt there are modelers with such "mind set". To organize a competition one needs to set some judging rules/categories.

Obviously, not everybody will be interested in participation, and that's fine. Making models gives me a lot of pleasure, but even sharing my builds on this forum makes me often uncomfortable enough to know I'm not going to participate. With my almost flat learning curve and intrinsic slowness of paper builds, I may change my mind in a dekade or so;). I would love to though attend a competition showing paper models as a visitor.
Forums like this one always will be a place for all kinds of builders, masters of the craft and noobs, and they should stay like that. The main purpose of forums should be the fun of sharing our creations (although we could be more critical about our work, but that's topic for another discussion;)).

My last point little more on the topic:D. Although digital, downloaded models may not permitted at competitions in Poland (or other Central or Eastern European countries) that doesn't mean it should be the same here. In Poland commercial printed kits are very popular, here in US, I dare to say, digital kits are the core of paper modeling, and the competitions should take it into an account. I leave the discussion how to deal with pirated digital kits to others, I'm not that competent in that matter.

[goodduck]

In there a class for people that design their one-of model?

[Erik J]

In there a class for people that design their one-of model?

That could be another category- scratch design/build. Good idea, thanks.

- Erik

[goodduck]

I just thought of something. I think all chimerical printed kits must built from the original and not copy. Cause each commercial printed kits are copyrighted. If the modeler enter a model built from a copy. Even if the modeler still own the original printed, but did not got the publisher written permission to makes copy of the kit. Wouldn't that mean that is a pirated model and should disqualified for contest :confused:

[Erik J]

I just thought of something. I think all chimerical printed kits must built from the original and not copy. Cause each commercial printed kits are copyrighted. If the modeler enter a model built from a copy. Even if the modeler still own the original printed, but did not got the publisher written permission to makes copy of the kit. Wouldn't that mean that is a pirated model and should disqualified for contest :confused:

You have brought up a major topic that has been debated at length here at papermodelers.com with no conclusions reached. I don't have the answer.

If a card model can't be copied and printed, even for personal use, any model entered into a contest would, therefore, have to be the commercial kit with things added but nothing changed. Contest judging would then be based on craftsmanship and not art. That would leave the freebie downloads as the only models that could be repainted or altered. It would also mean that many of the fantastic models seen in the 'Model Builds' forums would be ineligible to compete. That would include the recent incredible Orlik PBJ-1H Mitchell by Bomarc, as he did some scans to correct several bad parts. Perhaps the answer is to get copyright clarifications from each manufacturer before any of their models could be scanned, modified, and entered by an individual. Hmmm, lots of things to ponder.

- Erik

[goodduck]

You know what. My 1/32 Plasticke Paris to Dakar Rally trucks kits came in few days ago from Marcle Models. I was just checking out the English translation instructions. In it, it said "Before cutting out, it is a good idea to photo-copy the sheets. ........Also, if you are unlucky and damage or lose apart, you have a template to make a new one". So, guess for them. It is ok for the modeler to make copy off the original for back up. But to build a full model with the copy?

So I check out my other kits too. JSC instructions didn't said that. Maty, Modelik, Renova, Orlik with no translation, so I don,t know.

I guessing some publishers (Plasticke) let the modelers to copy for back up. Some don't, because instructions didn't said the modelers can ( I would just say NO by default). Do anybody actually read the kits instructions word for word to see what it said beside me? Or people just look at the pictures?

So what do all that mean, for me? I'll say, copy ok, "IF" the kit instructions said so. Modelers must show prove to enter contest with a model built with partial copy. But then. How could anyone tell it is a partial copy or full copy? ........ oh hell. No rule! Anything goes! At lest for the Open Class :D

[rickstef]

Actually the trucks are published by Albatros, long since folded

[scarmig]

Instead of rules, how about goals?

Best Improved Model, for available models that are kit-bashed, altered, retextured, enhanced.

Best Detailing

Best Use of Mixed Materials

Most Surprising

Best Eye-Catcher

And another category could be scaling instead of typing.

The categories and awards would be something to achieve instead of a way to restrict.

As for copyright, a hundred lawyers can't figure it out, so I think trust is the most productive path forward. Innocent until proven guilty. If someone is proven to have a pirate copy, they get disqualified or reward rescinded.

I don't like restrictions, but I do like goals to shoot for.

[Rutek63]

I opened the thread with your questions on the "Karton net Work" forum. So, you can also ask your questions there, or I can do it for you. I hope this will help.

modelarstwo kartonowe, plastikowe ... :: Zobacz temat - Merytoryczna pomoc dla modelarzy w USA (http://www.kartonwork.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14768)

peter

[APA-168]

Instead of rules, how about goals?

Best Improved Model, for available models that are kit-bashed, altered, retextured, enhanced.

Best Detailing

Best Use of Mixed Materials

Most Surprising

Best Eye-Catcher

And another category could be scaling instead of typing.

The categories and awards would be something to achieve instead of a way to restrict.

As for copyright, a hundred lawyers can't figure it out, so I think trust is the most productive path forward. Innocent until proven guilty. If someone is proven to have a pirate copy, they get disqualified or reward rescinded.

I don't like restrictions, but I do like goals to shoot for.

I agree completely, and especially like the part about being "innocent until proven guilty." My feeling is, if you try to prove that every single model in a competition is not pirated, then you'll end up with an incredibly cumbersome bureaucratic mechanism that not only will be ineffective at stopping pirated models from being entered, but will punish many innocent builders in the process. It won't work and it won't be fair.

Addressing the broader issue of cardmodeling competition rules, the emphasis should always be on having fun. I already feel like the IPMS people are too anal about the whole rules thing. Instead of trying to be "like them" why don't we try to be different? Be low key and open to everything and everyone.

[goodduck]

But, contest mush have rules, even people don't like them. Somebody have to take 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Somebody have to answer why 1st go to him or her. Why this model can't enter.

For modelers don't like rules (ME). A section just for show, not contest. :D So we'll have one side with people walking around with pocket flashlights, binocular magnifier, scale ruler and caliper. :mad: The other side would just have a big sign said "innocent until proven guilty". :rolleyes:

[scarmig]

Rules can evolve through social interaction, however, and they do *not* have to be standardized across all the voters and judges.

So, if there is a category that says, "Best Mixed Materials", for example, and I enter a model that is only plastic and doesn't have a shred of paper in it, each of the voters could vote my model down. It may be the most impressive plastic model the world has ever seen, ever, but they voters/judges apply the rules as they understand them.

Conversely, you also allow the judges to use personal bias when voting. Objectivity comes from consensus, not from regulation. So if I enter a model and a judge simply personally doesn't like it, because he hates pink and I put pink stripes on it... he can mark it down. That's okay, because that minority opinion will get diluted by the other judges.

Many, many years ago I entered the Internet Ray Tracing Competitions a few times. It was a good process with few rules. To be a judge, you had to enter. Everyone who entered was encouraged to judge all other entries and comment on them. There were several categories you could rate an entry on. Several times I would see someone with a great entry that had nothing to do with the topic, so I could mark them high on technical, but then destroy them on topicality. At the same time, some of mine got sunk on topicality because some of my viewers didn't make the connections that I made to the topic. That kind of feedback was useful in guiding future work, as I understood better how subtle or overt something needed to be to communicate effectively.

The end result was that exceptional pieces got their recognition, sometimes even if they broke or bent the "rules", and those who flagrant violated the spirit of the competition were roundly smacked down by the other entrants.

I can see a similar system working here. You need an admin to choose topics and define voting categories. To vote, you must submit an entry. The admins will make sure no one abuses the system technically, but they don't regulate social behavior. At the end of the voting period, they present the tallys and awards in each category.

You can even have it sectioned out by expertise, such as beginner, intermediate, and advanced, and you let each entrant decide which category they want to enter in. If someone obviously expert enters a beginner category, the other entrants will vote it down, and he'll know he can't win that way.

In this way, the community builds up the competition and polices the entries, and they have a vested interest because they've put their own entry on the block for the same treatment.

Sorry if I'm kinda jumping in with both feet... but I do think it would be fun to participate in a competition. :)

[Rutek63]

Scarming, We're NOT talking here about Forum competition. We' re talking about physical world where professional judges judge the models.

[APA-168]

Rutek-I, at least, am aware that we are discussing real competitions. My comments still stand. As far as rules, as I've said, I think a set of guidelines for what can and can't be entered is good, to ensure that we have a more or less level playing field. But anything beyond that, anything that might restrict *who* can enter as opposed to *what* can be entered, is too much.

[scarmig]

I'm aware that this is for meatspace competition, though my example was from the internet.

I think the concepts still apply. It's just people coming together to promote and recognize a hobby. Whether it's real or virtual is a question of logistics.

[Rutek63]

I agree completely, and especially like the part about being "innocent until proven guilty." My feeling is, if you try to prove that every single model in a competition is not pirated, then you'll end up with an incredibly cumbersome bureaucratic mechanism that not only will be ineffective at stopping pirated models from being entered, but will punish many innocent builders in the process. It won't work and it won't be fair.

Addressing the broader issue of cardmodeling competition rules, the emphasis should always be on having fun. I already feel like the IPMS people are too anal about the whole rules thing. Instead of trying to be "like them" why don't we try to be different? Be low key and open to everything and everyone.
You see , that is why we need rules. If we'll rule that no pirated models are allowed, then I believe, no modeler will enter pirated model. I believe that we modelers are the honest people. Besides, spotting a pirated model for judge is the easiest thing to.
You're seriously mistaken if you think that IPMS modelers have no fun there. Go to one IPMS convention and you will change you mind. In most part they have fun because of the rules. Rules are there to organize, not to restrict anything.

And to be honest, there are only a few rules in paper model competitions. They only there to protect the publishers rights that is all.

If it comes to "who?" can enter, I have no problem.

[APA-168]

You see , that is why we need rules. If we'll rule that no pirated models are allowed, then I believe, no modeler will enter pirated model. I believe that we modelers are the honest people. Besides, spotting a pirated model for judge is the easiest thing to.
You're seriously mistaken if you think that IPMS modelers have no fun there. Go to one IPMS convention and you will change you mind. In most part they have fun because of the rules. Rules are there to organize, not to restrict anything.

And to be honest, there are only a few rules in paper model competitions. They only there to protect the publishers rights that is all.

If it comes to "who?" can enter, I have no problem.

Well, I think there should be a rule that no pirated model can be entered, I agree with that. But I think there was discussion of a system for trying to determine whether or not a given model was pirated, which is quite impossible to do.

I go to several IPMS shows a year, so I would know better than most how fun they can be. But there are definitely moments when rules are taken too seriously. My point is not that one is necessarily bad or good, just that we can afford to be different.

[Erik J]

For those who have somehow missed the raging debate on what copyright and pirate mean, here are a couple of on-going forums on the subject:

http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/article-discussions/7178-more-copyright-questions.html

http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/howto-use-forums/9409-clarity-regarding-pirates.html#post141067

- Erik

[Erik J]

Mulling over the messages in the links to copyright & pirate discussions noted in the previous post, here is my proposal to deal with it:

All printed kits are considered copyright protected against copying unless noted otherwise on the kit.

While an individual could copy a kit for their own use, that does not authorize it for entry into a contest.

At some point after formulating and agreeing somewhat on a core set of card model contest rules, 'We' contact the major manufacturers (GPM, Modelik, Fly Model, Schreiber, etc.) explaining what we are doing and if 'We' could get permission to enter a scanned and possibly repainted model into a contest. We would also say that the contestant would have to produce an original uncut kit to the judges to verify they indeed own it.

For smaller manufacturers or individuals, the contestant or 'We' would make the contact and get permission.

If the copyright holder doesn't answer or if the holder is unknown, too bad, the model isn't eligible.

On a side note, there are CDs floating around full of the old Maly Modelarz kits that may or may not be authorized by the Maly people. Does anyone know the situation? I am fairly sure that none of the other major manufacturers ever put or allowed their kits to be put on CDs.

- Erik

[goodduck]

That work for me, Erik.

[APA-168]

Well, I personally wouldn't participate in such a competition. Just too difficult, the methods of enforcement are over the top. Also the part about copying a model for individual use irks me. How would you know if a kit was scanned or copied? Would you require everyone to provide proof the kit was original?

[Erik J]

Well, I personally wouldn't participate in such a competition. Just too difficult, the methods of enforcement are over the top. Also the part about copying a model for individual use irks me. How would you know if a kit was scanned or copied? Would you require everyone to provide proof the kit was original?

A contest needs understandable rules to insure a fair competition.

Hopefully we can come to agreement on a set of rules and keep things as simple as possible. A contest with no rules, where the judge awards a prize based on personal whims is very discouraging and not worth entering. I remember an IPMS contest years ago, where the judge hated Japanese airplanes and gave them low scores for that reason. IPMS rules continue to evolve to keep their contests fair and in tune with what kind of kits are being built. Card modeling needs to do something similar in concept but not in detail.

The 'enforcement' issue is intended to discourage pirating, which is not a problem in other model media but can cause a huge amount of trouble in card models. Copying for individual use is still being debated, but the general feeling is that it is ok if done by the kit owner without copies going to friends, etc.

Any contestant with an entry made from a computer printout would let the judges see and feel the original kit to determine if it is an original printing or a fake. If a contestant, for example, spends the money to print a pirate copy on photo quality 11 x 17 size paper, they could have purchased two additional kits instead for a lot less money. The contestant either has the original kit or does not.

As in the plastic world, a contest could also have a display table for modelers who just want to show what they have built and not be judged against what someone else has done. There should be room for all of us.

- Erik

[Rutek63]

At some point after formulating and agreeing somewhat on a core set of card model contest rules, 'We' contact the major manufacturers (GPM, Modelik, Fly Model, Schreiber, etc.) explaining what we are doing and if 'We' could get permission to enter a scanned and possibly repainted model into a contest. We would also say that the contestant would have to produce an original uncut kit to the judges to verify they indeed own it.


Erik J,
What do you mean be "scanned and possibly repainted model into a contest"? Do you mean changing the colors and schemes of the model using computer graphic program, or do you mean manual painting on the model while you build it using copied parts?

[Erik J]

Erik J,
What do you mean be "scanned and possibly repainted model into a contest"? Do you mean changing the colors and schemes of the model using computer graphic program, or do you mean manual painting on the model while you build it using copied parts?

I mean using the computer to change the colors and scheme. We don't see card models getting airbrushed like a plastic kit, but that possibility would be the same situation. A card model kit isn't intended to be recolored, but technically it is easy to do in the computer.

I have the GPM kit of the F4C (kit says it is the F4B) and scanned and recolored parts of it to match one I worked on when in the USAF. I also corrected some gross errors in the cockpits. So, to enter that model in a contest, I would have to show proof I have the kit (the uncut printed kit, which I have) plus documentation that verifies GPM has no objections to doing so. I have no idea how GPM or any other company would deal with such a request.

If the only way I could enter a commercial model into a contest would be to build it 'as-printed', I would be rather unhappy to see it next to an identical kit that is a bit better looking because the builder was a master with an X-acto knife.

I guess the point of it all is that it would be great to express individuality with a commercial kit without being in copyright violation.

- Erik

[goodduck]

What? I don't get it, Erik. Isn't this is what contest is all about. To see who got better Kung Fu? Don't be unhappy, master your X-acto.

I'm ok with people want to scan their models for parts back-up. I do that too. And I don't care people built full copy their personal use. But I think it is wrong to enter a full copy in contest. Card modelers should do what plastic modelers do. Buy two kits and build one. Model goes in the contest should built from the original kit. Models Contest, not Copy Contest. And so, no more copyright violation problem.

[Jim Nunn]

Here is my 2 bits worth,

I am not in favor of pirated models as I have stated over the years distributing pirated kits will in the end destroy this hobby. I believe the reason we have seen the rapid cost of these kits increase is due to the pirated models. That said deterring that a kit is pirated should not be a function for the displaying of the skill of the modeler in a competition. I can in most cases tell when a kit is a scanned model due to incorrect colors, lack of detail due to low scan levels and sometimes a moray pattern to the printing. If this is an issue to the general community then the cover of the original kit is all that is needed to prove that the kit was purchased.


Now on to the competition side, I have competed with paper models in IPMS contests for several years mostly to show the plastic community what can be accomplished in paper and picking up a fair number of trophies along the way is also nice. So as far as I am concerned I don’t need to be treated special just equal to the plastics. Most (not all) of the judging standards do apply to paper as well as plastic. As for the awarding of points and such I would suggest that the AMPS method be considered, I have not studied these rules (the local AMPS group very pointedly told me that paper was not allowed) but my impression is that their judging tends to be a fairer approach.

As for the source of the model (scratch built, published kit and downloaded models) these could be different categories or all displayed/ judged together. My good friend David T. Okamura took best of category for paper models at the IMPS nationals with a downloaded model. So I personally do not see any distinction between these different sources of paper models because in the end the judging is on the skill of the modeler and not the quality of the kit.

My final point and to me the most important issue is rules of judging are useless without competitions we should be talking about forming local paper modeling clubs/associations where competitions could be eventually held. These clubs would not only exist for contests but should be a gathering place so modelers could share building techniques and Ideas.

Jim Nunn

[Erik J]

Here is my 2 bits worth,

I am not in favor of pirated models as I have stated over the years distributing pirated kits will in the end destroy this hobby. I believe the reason we have seen the rapid cost of these kits increase is due to the pirated models. That said deterring that a kit is pirated should not be a function for the displaying of the skill of the modeler in a competition. I can in most cases tell when a kit is a scanned model due to incorrect colors, lack of detail due to low scan levels and sometimes a moray pattern to the printing. If this is an issue to the general community then the cover of the original kit is all that is needed to prove that the kit was purchased.


Now on to the competition side, I have competed with paper models in IPMS contests for several years mostly to show the plastic community what can be accomplished in paper and picking up a fair number of trophies along the way is also nice. So as far as I am concerned I don’t need to be treated special just equal to the plastics. Most (not all) of the judging standards do apply to paper as well as plastic. As for the awarding of points and such I would suggest that the AMPS method be considered, I have not studied these rules (the local AMPS group very pointedly told me that paper was not allowed) but my impression is that their judging tends to be a fairer approach.

As for the source of the model (scratch built, published kit and downloaded models) these could be different categories or all displayed/ judged together. My good friend David T. Okamura took best of category for paper models at the IMPS nationals with a downloaded model. So I personally do not see any distinction between these different sources of paper models because in the end the judging is on the skill of the modeler and not the quality of the kit.

My final point and to me the most important issue is rules of judging are useless without competitions we should be talking about forming local paper modeling clubs/associations where competitions could be eventually held. These clubs would not only exist for contests but should be a gathering place so modelers could share building techniques and Ideas.

Jim Nunn


Jim,
Thanks for jumping in. Pirate copies are the bane of this hobby, and should not be allowed in a contest. A pirate copy is fairly easy to spot. On the other hand, the computer allows a builder to make dramatic changes and improvements to the printed kit. My thought is that perhaps there is a way for a scanned kit not to be a pirate, such as getting limited reproduction authorization (only for a contest entry) from the creator/owner. If that doesn't come to pass, we still need to formulate a workable set of contest rules for future use.

AMPS, as you noted, more or less broke away from IPMS because of unhappiness with contest rules. AMPS has 'friendlier' contest rules than IPMS so should also be a good source for ideas. Too bad they were so negative about a paper model in their contest. Your Panther would have blown a lot of plastic off the table. Several local AMPS members are unhappy with the regional AMPS leadership focused more on contests than on the fun of building and getting together with other armor modelers. Sounds familiar. All hobbies that have contests have to deal with that at one time or another, I believe.

Download models, and there are a lot of them, are certainly available for repainting and any other improvements the builder desires and would be in a different category than the ones for unmodified commercial kits.

Indeed, the paper model hobby is getting big enough for local clubs to form and encourage model builders to expand into card models. These clubs would eventually hold contests and someday create a national organization, so the whole idea of this forum discussion is to have some well thought-out rules in place for anyone who wants to use them.

I notice in the Fiddlers Green forum there is currently a struggle to define some rules for a friendly contest. Should the model come from a printed kit from FG, or could it be an FG freebie or a kit from the CDs sold by FG? This is why I believe paper modeling needs some basic rules. By the time they decide on some rules, interest will have dropped off.

In summary, at this point we could start with the rules used in Poland and define an additional area for downloaded free models. Of course, we look at IPMS and AMPS for lessons learned to keep competition fair and not dominated by the ribbon chasing contest barracudas.

The issue of how to allow for models built from scans of commercial kits can be dealt with another day and not hold up progress.

- Erik

[Rutek63]

I mean using the computer to change the colors and scheme.

Unfortunately, this is going to be illegal. You can make changes to your model, but not to the kit. Please, read the statement made by laszlik from "karton net Work" forum

modelarstwo kartonowe, plastikowe ... :: Zobacz temat - Merytoryczna pomoc dla modelarzy w USA (http://www.kartonwork.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14768)

We don't see card models getting airbrushed like a plastic kit, but that possibility would be the same situation

Yes we do. I can give you examples of an upgraded and airbrushed paper models. Only at the end they look like plastic models. Therefore they have a special class called "Open", meaning you're free to do whatever you want to your model, but not to the kit.


A card model kit isn't intended to be recolored, but technically it is easy to do in the computer.

Again, intended or not, the "Open Class" was created exactly for those kind of models.


If the only way I could enter a commercial model into a contest would be to build it 'as-printed', I would be rather unhappy to see it next to an identical kit that is a bit better looking because the builder was a master with an X-acto knife.

The only way you can enter a commercial model into a contest is to build it using the original copy. You can, of course, use one, two, three or as many original copies as you want. Adding scanned parts in the place of a damaged original parts is a bad idea. They will look different (bad different). Unfortunately, the scanning or copying process is not able to recreate characteristics of the offset print. After all, you want to win the contest, so you want your model to look uniform.
The other way you can enter a commercial model into a contest is by upgrading it with paint, photo etched parts, scratch built parts etc, and then putting it into the "Open Class".
The whole idea of a paper model contest is exactly about quality of your building skills, not your designing skills. Models don't compete against each other, modelers do. Judges are grading a set of your skills by eliminating models, starting with those built with poor building skills, or by awarding points to the best.


I guess the point of it all is that it would be great to express individuality with a commercial kit without being in copyright violation.

- Erik

Putting somebody's design into a computer graphics program to partially alter a design is stealing his design. You don't like the original design, then you design your own model from scratch. Don't steal somebody's work to take shortcuts.

Peter

[Erik J]

Unfortunately, this is going to be illegal. You can make changes to your model, but not to the kit. Please, read the statement made by laszlik from "karton net Work" forum

modelarstwo kartonowe, plastikowe ... :: Zobacz temat - Merytoryczna pomoc dla modelarzy w USA (http://www.kartonwork.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14768)



Yes we do. I can give you examples of an upgraded and airbrushed paper models. Only at the end they look like plastic models. Therefore they have a special class called "Open", meaning you're free to do whatever you want to your model, but not to the kit.




Again, intended or not, the "Open Class" was created exactly for those kind of models.




The only way you can enter a commercial model into a contest is to build it using the original copy. You can, of course, use one, two, three or as many original copies as you want. Adding scanned parts in the place of a damaged original parts is a bad idea. They will look different (bad different). Unfortunately, the scanning or copying process is not able to recreate characteristics of the offset print. After all, you want to win the contest, so you want your model to look uniform.
The other way you can enter a commercial model into a contest is by upgrading it with paint, photo etched parts, scratch built parts etc, and then putting it into the "Open Class".
The whole idea of a paper model contest is exactly about quality of your building skills, not your designing skills. Models don't compete against each other, modelers do. Judges are grading a set of your skills by eliminating models, starting with those built with poor building skills, or by awarding points to the best.




Putting somebody's design into a computer graphics program to partially alter a design is stealing his design. You don't like the original design, then you design your own model from scratch. Don't steal somebody's work to take shortcuts.

Peter

Thanks, Peter. You clarified a lot of questions. A set of paper model rules for the USA would then emulate Polish rules with the addition of a slot for download free models with classes and categories to be discussed here.

A few years ago I designed a 1:72 DFS-230 for a contest in the old card model forum. Not too long after that the glider showed up for sale at a foreign web site and in shrink wrap at the local hobby store for the wargamers! They even put their copyright over the location where I had put mine. I intended it for free distribution with the copyright to stop someone from doing what they did. They didn't even change my camo pattern that is a mix of color lines derived from photographs and part of a pattern lifted from another German airplane. So, I have a personal interest in keeping the copyright issue clean and legal.

- Erik

[Mirco]

Here in Czech republic, "official" rules cover only the equivalent of Polish Standard class.
There are four categories based on contestants' age, and several categories based on what the models are: small wheeled vehicles, big wheeled vehicles (heavier than 3.5 tonnes), tracked vehicles, ships (anything that floats), aircraft and spaceships (anything that flies), small architecture (single houses and objects), big architecture (castles, towns - more buildings sticked together) and some auxiliary categories like 1/300 "Minibox" dioramas, figures and some other ones I don't remember. In each category, three best models are chosen.

Every model gets certain numbers of points for various aspects: overall impression, precision of cutting, folding and gluing, overall geometry, difficulty and number of parts, edge painting, custom upgrades, documentation etc. Then the points are summed, giving a number between 0 and 100 - an absolute measure of quality of this model. This scale is the same for all categories, so you can watch your progress from about 20 points as a child to over 70 as you grow older and so on.

Of course you can sand and paint your models, but you will get less points in total: more on overall impression etc., but less for the precision of cutting and gluing - when the judge can't see the places where cutting and gluing took place, you get zero points for that. That's why some of us called for the Open class to be opened, but there are simply not enough such modelers in CZ to fill it up :).

We have never had any serious pirate issues, IIRC. Regular print is distinguishable from a copy at the first glance, and moreover you get points for documentation when you provide the assembly instructions or other parts of the kit, so just take along whatever is left from the kit.
Downloaded free kits and scratchbuilds are allowed to compete using the same rules as "normal" kits, without any limitations. You can also compete with a scanned copy of a commercial kit or a modification of it, but you must prove you own the original copy too, otherwise you are considered a pirate and the model is disqualified.

That much for the championship rules. To win, you gotta choose the least populated category possible, find some attractive subject and build it the best and cleanest you can :cool:.

Then there is the visitors' prize: each visitor picks a model (or several models) he/she likes most, regardless of any category, and votes for it (them). To win this, you gotta trick human psychology, build something big, attractive and awesome and hope no one else builds the same thing :).

And then there are some other more or less just-for-fun contests with too few entries to make them official. They usually happen once or twice and then disappear and are replaced by something new. Three best models are usually chosen without any complex point system ("Hey, I really like this one. Why don't we let it win?" "OK, and this one could be the second...").

HTH.

[goodduck]

............................

[goodduck]

I like the Cz rules. I think it is fair and works great. No reason we here at the States have to make up our own set of rules or try to bend the plastic modeler rules to fit our need. Cz already got it nail down, just follow it.

But I do see problem with the group of modelers that build copy or convert commercial or fee kits would be label pirate and disqualified. I don't suppose "pirate" models are allow into the show just for displace only?

[Ron40]

I think these rules would be a great starting place. They have
sensible rules that are not overly restrictive. Mirco has presented
the basics that could be implemented without all the controversial
arguments that have plagued this thread......Ron

[member_3]

Just to help me understand...why is it we need to compete with fellow builders? When I build (not often enough!) it is to build to the best of my ability and to enjoy myself - not to be T.H.E. Best (whatever that means.) A "Peoples Choice" award at a model exhibition is nice but this "gold-silver-bronze" or "1st-2nd-3rd" stuff leaves me cold. I'm happy just to see the works of art produced by many of our members and to aspire to that quality of building...but, as I said at the beginning, I probably just don't understand.

[Ron40]

Well said Ron. There is too much one up man ship rather than
the joys of building and the joy of seeing others enjoying
the hobby.....Ron

[outersketcher]

Just to help me understand...why is it we need to compete with fellow builders? When I build (not often enough!) it is to build to the best of my ability and to enjoy myself - not to be T.H.E. Best (whatever that means.) A "Peoples Choice" award at a model exhibition is nice but this "gold-silver-bronze" or "1st-2nd-3rd" stuff leaves me cold. I'm happy just to see the works of art produced by many of our members and to aspire to that quality of building...but, as I said at the beginning, I probably just don't understand.

How about for the chance to win a cool model or two and for the chance to show off your own solution to a challange?

I entered one of the modeling contests on the other site a while back simply because I was intrigued by the challenge. I didn't win first place, but I had a lot of fun wringing every bit of detail from a free model kit... using nothing more than lamination of the available parts sheets. It was kinda neat to see some of the ways that others used as well.

If you placed in the top three, you got a couple of professional model kits in the mail. It was fun, and I cheerfully donated several professional kits of my own right back to the contest holder. Which he awarded (along with other donated kits from other members) to the winners of the next contest.

No trophies... just an interesting challenge, coupled with a cool prize for the best solution.

Well, anyway... it was fun.

[Damraska]

As a person who actively builds card models, actively builds plastic models, actively competes with both, and actively helps organize and run IPMS contests, I would like to talk about a few of the issues raised in this thread.

Why should we care about IPMS contest rules?

There are many IPMS clubs in the US and all over the world. Many put on model contests and shows. You can look at the current IPMS USA event calendar here: IPMS/USA Upcoming Events (http://www.ipmsusa.org/MemberServices/EventsCalendar/EventCalendarList.asp)

A small but significant percentage of shows currently include contest categories in which card models can compete. For example, the upcoming IPMS Reno show has 5 card model categories and the upcoming IPMS Orange County show has one.

IPMS has worked long and hard to develop a set of generic rules by which to judge these contests. They are geared towards plastic models and figures because that is what people predominantly build. However, the rise of card modeling in the US has not gone unnoticed, and more than a few efforts are underway to create IPMS rules specific to that type of model.

The IPMS judging rules were designed to objectively measure the quality of a model. They do not include subjective measures like, "How much do I like the subject?" or "How accurate is the paint job?". Judges look for fundamental building flaws like glue marks and poor seams, seeking the best built and best executed model. Three people judge each category and model. Three people see more than one, and having a trio prevents tie votes.

Many IPMS judging rules for a plastic models apply to card models. Some definitely do not, and new rules are needed specific to card models. When faced with a card model, the vast majority of IPMS judges have no idea what to look for, are uncertain about how to apply the rules, and thus make unfortunate but understandable judging errors.

As an aside, at the typical IPMS contest, ANYONE can judge. Before judging begins there is a call for help and a judges meeting. At many events there are not enough volunteers to judge, forcing those who do step up to do more work. This is a perennial problem. The head judge explains his expectations to the judges and tries to pair inexperienced people with more seasoned individuals. The most experienced teams always get the hardest categories to judge. Judging does not require some special certification process, just a willingness to try.

The moral of the story is that contests are going on right now, some include card models, the rules for judging card models are inadequate, judges do not know what to look for in a card model, and IPMS members are working to rectify these problems.

Why not just put on a card model only contest?

By all means, please do. You will need to secure a venue for the event and event insurance. You will need awards, tables, chairs, category cards, and registration forms. You will need people to assist with registration, an MC, people to police the tables, judges, a head judge, someone to collate contest results, someone to announce the results, someone to give out awards, and a bunch of people to clean up afterward. If you want to have vendors, you need someone to sign them up and somewhere to put them. If you want to hold a raffle or other special activities, you will need people to coordinate and run them. Most important of all, you will need people to show up, put models in your contest, pay your registration fees, buy your raffle tickets, and buy from your vendors so that you can hopefully break even or even make some money.

How many card modelers live in your area? Enough to warrant a dedicated show? Enough to help put one on? Will they show up? Of course, a whole bunch of IPMS clubs are already putting on shows and would love to get more participation. (I freely admit that some IPMS clubs are cliquish and close minded with regards to card models. Efforts should be focused one clubs that will work with and embrace the card modeling community.)

What kind of contest categories should we have?

Participation drives categories. If you have 30 entries, it's just a bit silly to have 20 categories. As a rule of thumb, 10 entries per category is a good target. The reason most IPMS contests have so few if any card model categories is because people do not enter enough card models. This is something of a chicken and egg problem. If the contest does not have the categories, people do not show up. But if people are not expected to show up, contest committees will not allocate categories for those models. Card modelers must become more active organizing their own events or become active with existing events to solve these problems. Approach an IPMS club, get them to add a card model category, then fill it. The more models that show up, the more categories they will allocate in following years.

Contest categories should always judge most like things together. The more models you get, the more you can break things down.

All card models
...Planes
......Prop
......Jet
...Vehicles
......Tracked
......Wheeled
...Ships
......Sailing
......Powered
...Sci-Fi
...Figures

And so on.

Why have contests? Can't we all just get along?

Contests are a completely subjective experience. I know people who go to contests for the camaraderie, for the vendors, for the raffles, because they collect awards, for the thrill of the sport, to look at the models, to learn new techniques, to prove how wonderful they are, or some combination of the above. Based on my experience, only a small fraction of attendees actually compete (5%-25%). The main goal of a contest and show is to get people to show up and look at your hobby. The more elements you include, the more people you will attract.

Competing in contests will make you a better modeler, especially if you judge. Getting beat is great incentive to do a better job next time. Working on a judging team, seeing some flaw pointed out, and then realizing, "Oh damn, I did the same thing on my last model", will open your eyes. Not only that, in the process of talking turkey as a contestant and judge you will quickly learn what judges look for, how to avoid problems, and how to fix them. You WILL employ this information on your next build.

What should a rule set for card models look like?

I will try to address meta rules here rather than detailed points. Some of the messages above have already done that well.

Any rules set for judging must be completely objective and apply equally to all models in a given category. In a perfect universe, for a given set of models, multiple judging teams should come to the same or similar conclusion every time. Participants must have access to all rules before the contest. Each judging team should include three judges. Judges must be able to evaluate models and apply the rules set in a reasonable amount of time--no convoluted judging systems. Rules should stress construction techniques and the work of the modeler, not the model itself. The rules should state if a judge can touch a model, such as to pick it up and look at the underside. Judges need the ability to move a model from an incorrect category to a correct one. Judges need the ability to split a category with a large number of entries. Every contest needs a head judge, and the head judge must have the final say on all contest decisions. A person cannot judge a category in which he or she has an entry. The head judge can remove a judge that consistently misapplies the rules. A given model may only compete for one year, staring from the date of the first contest it competed in. This gives new models (and contestants) a chance to win awards. Old winners retire to the "display only" table.

-Doug

[Rutek63]

... So, I have a personal interest in keeping the copyright issue clean and legal.

Erik,
I appreciate your understanding of that matter. It will be easier and fair to designers if we keep it simple and clean, so no copies.

Just to help me understand...why is it we need to compete with fellow builders? When I build (not often enough!) it is to build to the best of my ability and to enjoy myself - not to be T.H.E. Best (whatever that means.) A "Peoples Choice" award at a model exhibition is nice but this "gold-silver-bronze" or "1st-2nd-3rd" stuff leaves me cold. I'm happy just to see the works of art produced by many of our members and to aspire to that quality of building...but, as I said at the beginning, I probably just don't understand.
OldTroll,
Just to help you understand. Find one area of human activity in which people don't compete. I bet it will be very difficult to find one. There is no podium for the winners on scale model contests. But I believe that first, second and third place can bring the same sort of pleasure and happiness as Olympians have when they reach for their trophies. After all, it is human nature to compete. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with building models just for fun, the same way as every Olympic discipline can be played just for fun.
Besides, I thought it is clear that the subject of this discussion is how to and not if to come up with contest rules. However, your post attests my concerns that there may not yet be enough earnest paper modelers among us to have a serious paper models contest. I wish somebody can prove me wrong.

As a person who actively builds card models, actively builds plastic models, actively competes with both, and actively helps organize and run IPMS contests, I would like to talk about a few of the issues raised in this thread.
Damraska,
Thank you for joining in with very meaningful and competent thoughts. I agree with everything that you just wrote. I, too, believe that we should learn from and grow under the wing of local IPMS clubs. I think they have good and proven structure that can help us in the future build our own local clubs. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with working on just becoming the part of the IPMS.

Regards!
Peter

[Bomarc]

......However, your post attests my concerns that there may not yet be enough earnest paper modelers among us to have a serious paper models contest. I wish somebody can prove me wrong.

Hey, I gave it shot Peter:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn91/bomarc_99/Misc%20Stuff/IMG_7443.jpg

The above took place at a one day show my local IPMS club hosted a few months ago. My club has zero mechanisms in place for paper models at the present time. My model had to compete with all the plastic kits you see there on the table, making it every bit the novelty than a contender. The judges, bless their hearts, gave it a go to judge it, but they had absolutely no guidance or criteria by which to judge a paper model, particularly when pitted against plastic models. That's why I think the above discussions in this thread are important and hopefully lead to a path by which paper modeling can be recognized and judged on it's own merits.

But you know what? Even though I knew going in that my model didn't stand a chance of winning, I still had a lot of fun putting my model on the table, showing it off to disbelieving eyes, and talking about modeling in general (paper, plastic, you name it) with all the guys there. For me, that's the real reason to enter a contest. Trophies are great, but it's really just icing on the cake.

Mike

[Mirco]

...But I do see problem with the group of modelers that build copy or convert commercial or fee kits would be label pirate and disqualified. I don't suppose "pirate" models are allow into the show just for displace only?
We apply zero tolerance for pirate copies, neither for competition nor displays. But not all copies are illegal - law allows you to make copies for personal use. You just can't give the copies away and keep the original or give away the original keeping some copy. The same applies for modifications: you can modify the kit you bought, but you can't give the modified kit to people who haven't bought the original one.
So you can show/compete with a model built from a copy, but then you must prove it's a legal copy - bring and show the original too. That's all.

Usually you present your build on the forum, so everybody knows in advance what you're building and you don't have to prove anything. But it is always better to be prepared for everything :rolleyes:.

BTW, I usually go to contests just for fun, I don't like winning :P.

[Ron40]

Mirco,
That would be my vote for the rules. It pretty well defines
what would be allowed. This protects the designer and
his model from being changed to something he does not
endorse......Ron

[Damraska]

Thank you for joining in with very meaningful and competent thoughts. I agree with everything that you just wrote. I, too, believe that we should learn from and grow under the wing of local IPMS clubs. I think they have good and proven structure that can help us in the future build our own local clubs. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with working on just becoming the part of the IPMS.

Thanks, Peter. I would very much like card modeling to become a recognized modeling specialty within IPMS, like aircraft, armor, ships, sci-fi, automotive, or figures. People who participate in one or another specialty tend to naturally segregate themselves. Some modeling groups focus on one specialty and freeze out models and modelers from other specialties. If you think plastic modelers look at card models funny, try taking a tank to a dedicated ship building club. However, most IPMS groups I have attended embrace all major specialties. Adding one more specialty to the mix (card models) is no major leap. Modelers from each specialty naturally master skills and techniques applicable to others, and sharing those techniques helps everyone.

I just reread the IPMS National Competition Handbook and I would highly recommend that anyone interested in card model judging rules read the meta rules in that document (IPMS/USA National Contest Committee (http://www.ipmsusa.org/NCC/NCC.htm)). They address more global issues in more detail than my previous post.

With regard to anti-piracy rules, I think the solution is pretty simple:

I) To qualify for competition, a model must include supporting documentation indicating proof of ownership.
a) For retail card models originally delivered in book form, the model must be accompanied by an uncut copy of the book OR all book pages remaining after construction (front cover, back cover, written material, construction diagrams, etc.).
b) For retail card models originally delivered in digital form, the model must be accompanied by a proof of purchase receipt OR a CD issued by the manufacturer with the model and associated software. A receipt must show the buyer's name, the relationship of the buyer to the builder (written in by the builder), the name of the model, and the amount paid. Credit card and other sensitive information should be blacked out.
c) For free card models originally delivered in digital form, the model must be accompanied by the end user license agreement issued with the model.

For Ia I specifically left out the disposition of the model. It does not matter if the model was built from the original book, from a scan of the original book, or from a repainted scan. If you have the original book you paid the price of admission.

For Ib, again, it does not matter if the modeler builds the model as designed, with modifications, or repainted. A receipt or CD from the manufacturer unequivocally establishes proof of ownership. If the model was a gift, you must state this fact on the receipt, nothing more.

For 1c, every free model I have seen came from a website with some kind of fair use statement. As long as the model was built within the limits of that statement, everything is fine.

Can a person game these rules? Of course. I can buy a model book, scan it, build the scan, enter both in a contest, then sell the original book. I can create a dummy receipt, copy a disk including the label artwork, and make up a fair use clause to my advantage. These rules are designed to minimize illegal activity without overly burdening contestants.

The rules above address ownership, not judging issues. Rules about supporting material for judging (if any!) belong in a different section.

-Doug

[Texman]

Well, I've stayed off of this one for a reason. But after reading along, I have to speak up.

Yes, the piracy issues are a concern. But ya'll have strayed about 5-7 YEARS into the future. What is of a concern, in the card model contest/judging arena is what are the judging criteria first. The IPMS/USA is beginning to incorporate card models into their contests. This is GREAT! However, the actual criteria for judging a card model in a historically plastic venue is what must be addressed first. Your standard plastic model judge, in the beginning, is not really going to be concerned about whether the kit is an electronic download, a kit built from the actual booklet, or a scan of the booklet you own. They are going to be concerned with how to judge a card model. Seams, finish, detailing, etc. This is the stuff a judge is concerned with.

Do I see the potential for a pirated kit to be entered? Yes. At this juncture of integration into the broader modelling world, is this our greatest concern? I should think not. We need to focus on getting the models out there, for all to see what can be done.

Is there a place for some type of proof? Yes, again. Is this the proper time to try and integrate that? Again, I think not. Once the card models become more mainstream in the contest circuits, then this would most certainly need to be addressed.

And, as the only card modeller in my IPMS club, working to write judging criteria for card models into our contests, and educating the fine members of my club on this particular branch of the modelling world, we are making progress. But let's not put the cart before the horse. You know, learn to crawl, walk, then run.

Of course, the caveat to this, if there is a card model only competition, then all of the concerns here have great merit. But with the exception of the Card Model Convention in Herndon, Va, this is not a mainstream event here in the U.S. as of yet.

This diatribe is strictly my opinion, and as such, remains just my opinion.

[Damraska]

The above took place at a one day show my local IPMS club hosted a few months ago. My club has zero mechanisms in place for paper models at the present time. My model had to compete with all the plastic kits you see there on the table, making it every bit the novelty than a contender. The judges, bless their hearts, gave it a go to judge it, but they had absolutely no guidance or criteria by which to judge a paper model, particularly when pitted against plastic models. That's why I think the above discussions in this thread are important and hopefully lead to a path by which paper modeling can be recognized and judged on it's own merits.

Mike, efforts like yours keep the ball moving forward, raise awareness, and build goodwill. You are leading the way.

If you can find one or two other card modelers in your area, and can get them to commit to show up and compete, you might be able to convince that club to add a category specifically for card models. I guarantee they have a contest committee that analyzes show results, looks at what was entered, and tweaks the categories accordingly for next year. If you can convince them a card model category will draw 3+ models, they might give it a shot.

With some effort, IPMS will catch up and have dedicated card model judging rules ready for the next contest. Training judges will be harder, but it's doable.

-Doug

[Texman]

....With some effort, IPMS will catch up and have dedicated card model judging rules ready for the next contest. Training judges will be harder, but it's doable.
-Doug

Your exactly right Doug. And I'm trying from my little corner of the U.S.!

[Erik J]

Card models in IPMS events are discussed in the FSPM forum here at papermodelrs.com, so that is the place to go to with comments and questions about entering an IPMS contest and working with IPMS to expand their rules to include paper.

The IPMS and AMPS rules are full of ideas that we can adapt to our situation. Our rules won't be bullet-proof, but we can certainly learn a lot from years of plastic model contest experience.

The intent of this forum discussion is to draft rules and such for a paper model only contest. I'd say we are making a lot of progress especially after getting rules used in Poland and the Czech Rep.

The pirate copy issue is slowly getting clarified, and a separate category for scanned and edited models would keep them from competing head to head with retail printed models.

Damraska provided great guidelines for the downloaded free models.

Of course we want a category for display models, as many builders don't wish to compete with anyone but do want to display what they have built. I'd think awarding a trophy means they are competing, hmmm.

To keep the rules simple, how about a separate 'handbook' sort of document with tips and recommendations for judging? It could, for example, show how to evaluate a glued seam and how well the white edges were covered.

- Erik

[Damraska]

Hi Erik,

Card models in IPMS events are discussed in the FSPM forum here at papermodelrs.com, so that is the place to go to with comments and questions about entering an IPMS contest and working with IPMS to expand their rules to include paper.

I disagree. The purpose of this thread is to develop a fundamental set of fair, concise, and logical rules for conducting a card model contest. The end user may be a group of card modelers in Nebraska, Siberia, or IPMS USA. The end user will ultimately pick and choose from this rules set and make changes to meet individual requirements.

Since IPMS USA is actively looking for a card model rule set, it only makes sense to listen to their member's questions, concerns, and ideas when formulating a fundamental rule set. If the result of the discussion is a fundamental rule set for card model contests AND an IPMS USA rule set for judging card models, that is a GOOD THING. In fact, I would argue it is the best possible outcome of this discussion. We are all adults and can handle some cross talk while both issues get hammered out.

The intent of this forum discussion is to draft rules and such for a paper model only contest. I'd say we are making a lot of progress especially after getting rules used in Poland and the Czech Rep.

The rule sets discussed so far certainly inform the discussion, but no one has put forth a proposal for a fundamental card model contest rule set. We are still in the very early, exploratory part of the process. Not much has happened.

The pirate copy issue is slowly getting clarified, and a separate category for scanned and edited models would keep them from competing head to head with retail printed models.

Why do scanned and edited card models need separate categories? A card model of a plane is a card model of a plane. Do you intend to judge the quality of the model or the quality of the build of the model? I submit that the quality of the build is the only relevant matter for a model BUILDERS contest. If you want to have a model DESIGNERS contest, that contest can have categories for scans and repaints.

Of course we want a category for display models, as many builders don't wish to compete with anyone but do want to display what they have built. I'd think awarding a trophy means they are competing, hmmm.

There is no need for a category for display models. You put out some tables marked "display only" and assign someone to police them. A guide to putting on a model show should cover this, but it is not strictly a part of a contest and judges do not interact with "display only" models. I think this is just a semantics issue based on use of the word "category".

To keep the rules simple, how about a separate 'handbook' sort of document with tips and recommendations for judging? It could, for example, show how to evaluate a glued seam and how well the white edges were covered.

This is an absolute MUST HAVE. Even with a great set of contest rules, participants will walk away dissatisfied if judges cannot apply them correctly. A Handbook for Judging Card Models must also come out of this process.

-Doug

[Erik J]

Hi Erik,



I disagree. The purpose of this thread is to develop a fundamental set of fair, concise, and logical rules for conducting a card model contest. The end user may be a group of card modelers in Nebraska, Siberia, or IPMS USA. The end user will ultimately pick and choose from this rules set and make changes to meet individual requirements.

Since IPMS USA is actively looking for a card model rule set, it only makes sense to listen to their member's questions, concerns, and ideas when formulating a fundamental rule set. If the result of the discussion is a fundamental rule set for card model contests AND an IPMS USA rule set for judging card models, that is a GOOD THING. In fact, I would argue it is the best possible outcome of this discussion. We are all adults and can handle some cross talk while both issues get hammered out.



The rule sets discussed so far certainly inform the discussion, but no one has put forth a proposal for a fundamental card model contest rule set. We are still in the very early, exploratory part of the process. Not much has happened.



Why do scanned and edited card models need separate categories? A card model of a plane is a card model of a plane. Do you intend to judge the quality of the model or the quality of the build of the model? I submit that the quality of the build is the only relevant matter for a model BUILDERS contest. If you want to have a model DESIGNERS contest, that contest can have categories for scans and repaints.



There is no need for a category for display models. You put out some tables marked "display only" and assign someone to police them. A guide to putting on a model show should cover this, but it is not strictly a part of a contest and judges do not interact with "display only" models. I think this is just a semantics issue based on use of the word "category".



This is an absolute MUST HAVE. Even with a great set of contest rules, participants will walk away dissatisfied if judges cannot apply them correctly. A Handbook for Judging Card Models must also come out of this process.

-Doug

Wow, you brought up a lot of good points!

1. As for IPMS, cgutzmer asked me to move the topic of paper model contest rules out of the FSPM forum, which is dedicated to paper models in IPMS. I agreed, and did so, and propose that we develop the rules here and in due time post them in the FSPM forum. I didn't know IPMS was interested in formulating a set of paper model rules, so our discussions here are timely, indeed.

2. We are in the initial stages of forming the rules, as you note, but the Poland and Czech Rep. rules give us a firm base.

3. Scanned/edited vs. straight kit- Oh, we can argue this item, but my gut feeling is the two categories are only compatible in quality of construction judging. If construction is the only criteria, why bother to edit the paint scheme? As you noted, the contestant has to prove that they have the original printed kit as the source for the scan/edit.

4. Display models- you're right. It would be a table for models with no judging, awards or anything else. The builder could provide a printed page or two about how it was built and what was changed. In that way we all could learn something.

5. Judging handbook- Oh, yes, we definitely need one, and I think it should be a separate document. As this forum discussion continues, I suggest we address two topics- the rules and the judging criteria. I remember being thrust into a couple of hotly contested IPMS 'friendly' contests that almost came to blows and sure could have used a judges training sheet!

- Erik

[Kevin WS]

Have read this thread with interest.

My comments would be.......

1. Take note that judging rules are not the same as competition rules. The judges rules can be worked out by judges so they have consistent parpameters to work to. Competition rules guides the participants.

2. Rules should be simple.

3. Simple. The idea is to have fun and be able to enter your work. Not bicker over technicialities that are often irrelevant. IPMS has breed a cadre of rivet counters and rule experts - its not fun sometimes unless you like being pedantic and officious.

4. Simple rules should cover the obvious basics - broad classes, and actual obvious items such as the paper percentage of a model required if it is scratch built e.g. basic structure and component made of card/paper. Otherwise trust the integrity of the participants. If you cannot do the latter do not bother with competitions as they will not be one!

Bascally the idea is to have fun, share and get input - what happens on this Forum anyway........... And the Forum provides, in a way, a simple guide of the direction to take..................!