Help With Model 95 Mailplane

[ashevilleangler]

I guess you could say that I pulled an "Old Troll" on this one. About a year ago I agreed to build a Model 95 mailplane in Western Air Transport livery for Harry Davidson who is the curator of the Cavalcade of Wings museum at the Albuquerque Airport. Well I got a pretty good start at it using the Fiddlers Green Model 40 mailplane as a starting point. When I got to the WAT Indian Head logo I got stuck.

So can anyone help me with this? I need a clean graphic preferably white with a solid black background. The best referece I've found so far is attached. In return I promise a build thread and if Chip signs off I'll post the model in the downloads section.

Cecil

[member_3]

Maybe one of these? The WAE one looks like the right one - just need to recolor?

http://www.oldtroll.com/images/logowa30.jpg

http://www.oldtroll.com/images/wa450201.jpg

[ashevilleangler]

Actually, I should have said Western Air Express instead of Western Air Transport. Here's the actual aircraft that I'm trying to build.

Cecil

[member_3]

I don't know if it's worth $15.00 to you but this outfit has 1:24 plans which include the WAE scheme:

http://www.aeroaces.com/jamdrwgs2.htm

[ashevilleangler]

It's worth a try.

[B-Manic]

Here's another and a luggage tag just in case, :) click thumbnail to enlarge.

[ashevilleangler]

Thanks guys, Guess what? I was inspired to go back through the reference materials given to me by Harry Davidson and found another photo of much higher resolution which will probably work just fine. Now I suppose I put myself on the hook for a build thread. Call it an adaptation of the FG Boeing Model 40. Look for it after the OTDAEABT models are done.

Cecil

[Don Boose]

This should be good, Cecil. It's ANOTHER of my favorite airplanes.

Don

[dansls1]

Interesting subject, and I especially like watching projects come together that are for public display. I will admit that it took 3 readings to figure out that it wasn't Harly Davidson that asked you to build the model - which made no sense...

[Leif Ohlsson]

For what it's worth, here's a couple more. I was keen on making the Douglas M2 at one time, and found the logo the most difficult part to obtain, in order to recolour an existing free model. This is what I found.

Incidentally, the ones provided by Old Troll were new to me. Thanks!

Leif

[birder]

Interestingly the Boeing 40 is my design, and note that Chip didn't include the cross axle struts although I did do them. I also did a Western Air Express and a United versions although only the United made it to fg. The WAE version is hand-drawn by me, but the indian head I drew was based on quite a bit of research. The actual flying Boeing 40 being built is ready to fly anytime now, although Addison doesn't want to fire up the big p+w radial untill everthing is tightened down real well.

[ashevilleangler]

Wow! Birder, I would love to see your Indian Head WAE logo.

Cecil

[birder]

You know I happened upon the original drawing the other day looking for something else, so I think I can get that, I'd like to show it to you, although you may have one you like better, either way is fine. Do you need the struts?
glen

[ashevilleangler]

Thanks Leif! You never know when these may come in handy. I'm amazed at the number of different logos used by WAE. Here's the version I'm working on for Harry.

[Leif Ohlsson]

Thanks Cecil; duly archived.

I would be looking for something to go with this one; i.e. Western logo on the fin; US Mail logo on the fuselage.

Anything, anybody?

Leif

[birder]

The western air express operating in the northwest was marked with the indian chief head and arrow, old period photos show. These logos did change in different years, though, with some indian head logos showing up on modern DC3, ect. The boeing 40 was 1928 era perhaps the air+space Douglas illustrated was earlier or not northwest based.

[birder]

There is a nice reference work done by a local author with period photos of these plane mostly from the airport in Spokane, Wa. If interested I can give more info later..the cover photo is a Boeing 40b4 with the WAE side logo but I do not recall the tail arrowhead logo noted on the Douglas mailplane

[Leif Ohlsson]

Birder, many thanks for the effort. Anything you think worthwhile is much appreciated.

I like this area for a number of reasons: Lindbergh probably flew one of these planes as a mail pilot; they are early Golden Era biplanes; and they are civilian with quite an adventurous challenge attached to them: Flying through all kinds of weather almost without navigation help; landing on small grass fields sometimes lit only by car headlights; etc.

I like it.

Leif

[ashevilleangler]

Nice to see so much interest in these planes. If it's not to much trouble Glen, I would love to get a set of struts for the Model 95.

Thanks,

Cecil

[birder]

I'll see what I can come up with, good luck, I think these early boeings are really cool, but my model is imperfect, in fact, when I last built one I had a fairly long list of things I wished to improve, but I'm not sure that'll occur; the engine and exhaust are pretty good, the lower wing fuse cutout isn't too good. The panel is accurate, some trimming needed on flying surfaces, and the hoizontal stab/elevator isn't too good. My staggerwing is a much better model. however, despite it's faults the large version is still an impressive model just on size alone (21 in wingspan). Thanks Leif, a fly by the seat of the pants era, pre Doolittle and Eaker's instrument perfections, and Lindberg did fly mailplanes, mostly the DH4 which he parachuted out of on one occasion due to fuel exhaution in zero visability.
Working today so tomorrow hope to show some drawing.

[shrike]

If anyone gets the DH4 bug, my old boss at the airport I used to work at is the guy that owns the one flying example.

[birder]

Really? Is that the one restored by Peck Aviation?What a gem.

[shrike]

That's the one. Glen wasn't there when I worked there.
Had lots of fun. Got to deal with most kinds of Wacos. Learned where all the steps on a Stearman are. Learned to tune flying and drag wires by ear (ting ting ting tonk >tighten< ting). Learned that it is possible to prop an R975 when you weight 145lbs.

[birder]

That is one nice restoration, Liberty engine and all, wow.

[birder]

for Cecil I don't know if this helps, really, but here's the sketch
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/waechief.jpg
for Shrike, I'm envious of your experience, though some nifty restorations are taking place here, Stearmans aplenty, a C Cabin Waco with wright radial, also a beautiful
Laird Commercial. Local work largely the result of Pemberton Aviation and especially Addison's enthusiasm for this work. I have been accepted at the "aerodrome" and love to see those planes.....

for Leif "70 years of Commercial Aviation" by Howard Lehn, an interesting autobiographical little book, locally written by a minister...however the data is solid and photos though few illustrate the Douglas m-2 with markings you were interested in, and an early Boeing 40, with cover photo as previously described

[ashevilleangler]

Thanks Glen,

I'll have to wait till I get home to look at it though. Photobucket is blocked here at the office.

Cecil

[birder]

If you want me to email it I can include the strut file send me a pm

[birder]

Cecil I found an outline of the struts on a page with the other struts also for scale.
also heres a rough idea of how they go, sorry is photobucket, I don't have another means yet to share
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/odds014.jpg
how would you like me to send the struts?

If Shrike is reading this, you know Glen Peck did the gorgeous recovering on the boeing 40 in the Ford museum. His work is impeccable. And he seems to be having fun at it as well...were you in on that one?

[shrike]

No, unfortunately my time at Creve Coeur was way before then, I do have about 18 inches of baseball stitching hanging in the Smithsonian<G>

[birder]

very nice:)

[birder]

Cecil heres the rest of that 40 I used wood wheels, but sprayed it to shine and the rigging fuzzed up ugh
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/goosepic004.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee248/birdergv/goosepic003.jpg
glen

[ashevilleangler]

Thanks! Once again, I'll have to wait till I get home to look.

[Leif Ohlsson]

I don't suppose this would be of any further help? (Attachments are to no particular scale.) - L.

[ashevilleangler]

Thanks Lief. Now I really feel the need to begin a beta build on this plane.

[member_3]

You may or may not be aware that Cleveland Model Supply (http://www.clevelandairline.com/default.asp) has stick and tissue model drawings of the Model 95 available in several scales (including 1:32). These drawings are intended to make scale flying models and are quite accurate. I don't know if the Model 95 drawing would be of any use to you.

[shrike]

You may or may not be aware that Cleveland Model Supply (http://www.clevelandairline.com/default.asp) has stick and tissue model drawings of the Model 95 available in several scales (including 1:32). These drawings are intended to make scale flying models and are quite accurate. I don't know if the Model 95 drawing would be of any use to you.


Just be sure to compare the tail surfaces and dihedral for scale Both tend to be exaggerated for flying models (been there done that wore out the t-shirt<G>)

[Leif Ohlsson]

Just found this one, at:
http://www.powerofthepast.org/html/aircraft.htm

Leif

[ashevilleangler]

Ron,

Thanks for the Cleveland link. I tend to forget about them as a resource. For five bucks it will be worth it to get more detailed drawings. Harry got a really nice one for the model 40 but not for the model 95.

Cecil

[ashevilleangler]

Leif,

Very nice view of this plane! The engine and under carriage details are very clear. And that logo! Now I have to think about three colors not just two. I had not figured in the black. BTW, I followed that link and still could not find this photo. Man you are great at net searches.

Cecil

[member_3]

This looks like the same aircraft with a cowl ring - before it got hung from the ceiling? It is identified as a Stearman C-3MB but has the same registration number.

http://www.miniplane.cn/Biplanes/1099.htm

[ashevilleangler]

Ron,

You are right, this airplane is a Stearman. The similarities are pretty weird though,.... que no?

Cecil

[Leif Ohlsson]

Man you are great at net searchesThanks, Cecil, I wish, I wish it were so, but the truth is it just happened while I was looking for something completely different. Would have never found it if I was looking for it...;) - L.

[birder]

Are you working on this one? I've finally managed to upload the simple strut layout of the fg 40 including the omitted axel struts

[Leif Ohlsson]

I followed that link and still could not find this photo. Man you are great at net searches.Looking back through previous posts, it is no small wonder that you didn't find the picture I published of a Stearman C3 (http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/Early/smf-stearmanC3.jpg), at the Seattle Museum of Flight- Seattle, WA. The correct link is this:

http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/Early/smf-stearmanC3.jpg

It was found on this page:
http://airpower.callihan.cc/HTML/early.htm

At this site:
http://airpower.callihan.cc/

Since it is a good source for many things, I'd like to correct my mistake.

Leif

[Don Boose]

These are useful sites, Leif.

Many thanks.

The only trouble is, one could spend hours . . .

Don

[birder]

A stearman of that type has recently been restored here locally. Interesting that Boeing acquired Stearman co just prior to wwII, and these designs date back to 1930's. Many similarities in early designs, one wonders how much date to the swallow biplane co. that employed Clyde Cessna, Matt Laird, Lloyd Stearman as designers.

[shrike]

Aviation has always been (and still is) very inbred. Follow the lineage of the XP24, XP25, A-11, PB-1 for an example.

Somewhere there is a picture of me standing in front of a Stearman C3R in a Rocketeer costume - at least 5 years befor the movie. To keep it on topic (sorta) the helmet was card, with petals<G>

[Don Boose]

Leaving aside for the moment the image of Shrike dressed as Rocketeer (with petaled helmet), the Pitcairn Mailwing seems to me to have had a similar appearance to the Stearman and Boeing mail planes. I think engineering desiderata cause certain types of optimum designs to emerge with consequent similarities of appearance (Curtiss A-18, Kawasaki Ki-45// Bloch 174/175, Bs-110, Pe-2, etc.).

And, having managed to work the word "desiderata" into the conversation, I am off for a day in the Military History Institute Reading Room.

Keep 'em flying!

Don

[ashevilleangler]

Thanks to Lief for the links and to birder for the struts. Considering the continuing interest in this model and my by now very late committment to Harry Davidson I guess I should pull this one out of the dustbin and get going on it.

Cecil

[Don Boose]

Go, Cecil! Go!

Don