PaperModelers.com

Go Back   PaperModelers.com > > >

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-28-2008, 10:48 AM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 2,607
Total Downloaded: 39.40 MB
Afterthought

And here's an afterthought - to my knowledge the fabric did not come off the Spirit of St. Louis more than once, and that was the repair carried out at Le Bourget immediately after the NYP flight. Therefore the third photo in the last post (see below for a repeat) must be French, and from that occasion.

[Click thumbnail for gallery photo]

I must confess I had no idea that the French mechanics had to repair that large areas of the Spirit! But judging from the evidence here, it must be so.

Since the silverdoped part we are discussing is there in the photo, it must have been there for the NYP flight. And since it didn't come off, it wasn't part of the fabric covering.

Furthermore, I suspect there may have been similar silverdoped cardboard (or ply or whatever) reinforcement in front of the door on the right side. That is very difficult to spot, but it would be logical, due to the mass of fuel tubing, instrument wires, and lever wires on both sides. For modelling purposes, the inside of the door, plus the small area in front of it therefore ought to be silverdoped, plus the area we are discussing on the left side.

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 06-28-2008 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Afterthoughts to afterthought
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-28-2008, 04:59 PM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 2,607
Total Downloaded: 39.40 MB
Interim: Billy Wilder's 1957 movie

As a lighter - and very much nostalgic - interim, I made an album of a few good screenshots from the 1957 movie, starring a (much too old) James Stewart. I suspect there might be a few around who saw the original movie at the time, and it would be interesting to compare notes. A few samples:

[Click the thumbnails]

I was twelve at the time and, together with an abridged version of the book, the film laid a solid foundation for a life-long wish to create one good model of the Spirit of St. Louis.

I havent been able to fulfill that ambition yet...
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-28-2008, 08:38 PM
Don Boose's Avatar
Don Boose Don Boose is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania
Posts: 15,838
Total Downloaded: 120.19 MB
I saw this film when it came out and have the video. True, Jimmy Stewart was far too old to play Lindberg, but the flying scenes are very good and the film tells a good story.

My favorite "Lindberg" book is "North to the Orient" by Ann Morrow Lindberg. The story of their 1931 flight to East Asia in the Lockheed Sirius named "Tingmissartoq" at the time of their 1933 Europe, Russia, and Africa flight. Like the Spirit, Tingmissartoq lives on at the Smithsonian.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-29-2008, 01:02 AM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 2,607
Total Downloaded: 39.40 MB
... and "Listen! The Wind" from 1938, describing a later flight across the South Atlantic. Personally, I believe this was Anne's blueprint for writing (or shaping) Lindbergh's Pulitzer award-winning "Spirit of St. Louis" some 15 years later.

Read the tale about the take-off and the flight and compare to the tale of the Spirit, and you'll soon see what I'm getting at.

All of which will tell you whom I think is the creative force behind Lindbergh's award-winning book. But that's me.

Leif

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 06-29-2008 at 01:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-29-2008, 06:20 AM
dansls1's Avatar
dansls1 dansls1 is offline
Aviation Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Mt. Prospect, IL
Posts: 3,269
Total Downloaded: 0
Send a message via Yahoo to dansls1
While I believe your age puts you the same age as my dad Leif, I have seen that movie on TV a few times as a kid growing up. It was a magnificent thing as a 10 year old to see the actual plane in the Smithsonian and imagine the cold and difficult flight it and its pilot went through. And judging from your photos and analysis, I agree that the silver piece on the inside is separate from the outer fabric coating.
__________________
-Dan
Reply With Quote
Login to remove ads
  #26  
Old 06-29-2008, 12:40 PM
Gil's Avatar
Gil Gil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Bear Flag Republic (Known as Water World in L.A.)
Posts: 1,807
Total Downloaded: 10.84 MB
Test of Time...,

The "Spirit of St. Louis" is by all standards an aviation classic capturing the look and feel of America in the 1920's. Billy Wilder's film captured my imagination in 1957 and still does the same today. The dog running around Ryan Aircraft was more than a nice touch as was the fish being fried upon Lindbergh's arrival there...,

+Gil
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-29-2008, 11:49 PM
centpacrr centpacrr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2
Total Downloaded: 0
Origin of the Spirit of St. Louis Fabric Sample

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leif Ohlsson View Post

....From this evidence, are we supposed to think that the internal colour of the fabric was silver before the French repairs? I don't believe so, and the clinching piece of evidence would be the following photo:



According to the source (Wikipedia) this represents a "Small piece of the fine linen fabric painted silver from the Spirit of St. Louis from a larger piece presented by Charles Lindbergh to the Belgian Ambassador to France in Paris, May, 1927".

The original source is stated as "The Cooper Collections". I have not been able to identify that source, but I will provisionally accept the photo as being of an authoritative sample. If it was indeed presented by Charles Lindbergh in Paris, May 1927, it was likely a piece of the fabric which was removed by the French mechanics who repaired the torn fabric. If so, it is most probably an authoritative example of what the fabric looked like, which, in turn, means that a colour scheme of silver on the outside, and tan fabric on the inside, is the most appropriate.

It may be the case that the silver painted section on the left side of the inside fuselage originally was slightly larger, perhaps to correspond with the silver doped inside of the door. But I do not believe that any major part of the inside very well can have been silverdoped.

Final consideration: Could the outside silverdope have soaked through to the inside? I don't think so. This is demonstrated both by the fabric sample, and by the photos of the interior, even if the fabric shown there should be a result of French repairs. After all, the French mechanics silverdoped the outside just the same as the workmen at Ryan's in San Diego.

What this means, is that the interior of Rafael Ciesielski's Gremir Spirit will have to be recoloured, or that a tan-coloured paper should be used for printing the inside pattern (with the exception of the inside of the door, and just possibly a corresponding section on the left side).

What do you say?
I created and posted (on Wikipedia) the image of the sample of SSoL fabric in my collection ("The Cooper Colections") of Linberghiana. I acquired this particular item about ten years ago at an stamp auction conducted by Michael Rogers, Inc, (Winter Park, FL) which was breaking up a large collection of Lindberghiana. (I believe this piece came from the Bettencourt Collection.)

The small piece of fabric is attached to a calling card by means of a 1927 "Lindbergh Air Mail" U.S. postage stamp (C-10) and is stamped on the back with the seal of the Belgian Embassy in Paris, a second stamp reading "L'Ambassadeur de Belgique á Paris", and the signature of the Ambassador. The calling card is of an Albert Arnould, Directeur de la Scene du Theatre Marginy, Paris, and has a handwritten inscription that the fabric is from the "l'avion Spirit of St. Louis de Lindbergh" and the date "Juin 1927".

I have posted an image of the calling card (both sides) and the attached fabric sample at http://digitalimageservices.com/SoSL..._June_1927.jpg.

If you have any questions you may contact me at BCC@DigitalImageServices.com.

Bruce C. Cooper
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-01-2008, 02:04 AM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 2,607
Total Downloaded: 39.40 MB
Fabric & tubing colours

Dear Bruce,

Many thanks for providing this information! Would you by any chance have a web display of your collection of Lindberghiana? That would be most interesting to see!

Meanwhile, with the information provided by others, Shrike in particular, could we now regard it as settled that the interior of the Spirit should be canvas coloured?

Shrike also provided invaluable information as to the colour of the tubular steel framework:

Quote:
Fokker who pioneers steel tube frames used a clear lacquer mixed with lampblack giving a translucent grey finish. It was ineffective, so rust appeared quickly.

Red-oxide primers, oil and lacquer were common followed by, but not replaced by, zinc chromates by the late 1920's. Silver (aluminium) lacquer and bituminous paints were also used where corrosion was likely to be a problem.
To judge between the alternatives, here are a few samples from the Spirit of St. Louis galleries here on the site:


[Click on the thumbnails to get to the galleries]


The two first photos are from the Smithsonian Spirit. They indicate a greyish finish, possibly with a hint of yellow in it (but that may be the lighting).

The third photo is one of many similar from the construction of the Spirit in San Diego. They do not contradict the modern colour photos.

The fourth and last image is from the Old Rhinebeck replica. They have chosen light grey as representative for their replica, which seems to corroborate the choice of grey as appropriate when modelling the tubular structure.

I could have wished for a blueish-black deep steel colour, but there you go - the reality is is what it is.

Note from the third photo, that the greyish colour was dissolved, or at least blackened at the spots where the wooden stringers were attached. Varnish from treating the wood dissolving the lampblack mixture on the steel tubes?

Note also from the second photo, that the tank, rudder pedals, etc. was painted in the same greyish colour. The inside of the door, however, is most probably silver dope, like the exterior, right?

Leif

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 07-01-2008 at 02:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-01-2008, 06:45 AM
shrike's Avatar
shrike shrike is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chandler (SE PHX Metro) AZ
Posts: 1,493
Total Downloaded: 0
The inside of the door is certainly silver dope. The door would be covered on both sides to prevent warping and finished as a separate piece.

The blackened spots look more like an application of tar or bitumen to prevent chafing.
__________________
I'm not making it up as I go along, I'm establishing precedent
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-01-2008, 09:54 AM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
Posts: 2,607
Total Downloaded: 39.40 MB
Reproducing the different kinds of silver exterior

Thanks Shrike - bitumen, what do you know... Now we all got to know yet another aircraft restoration tidbit. Thanks!

I thought it might be good to clear up all the colour issues before progressing with all the interesting structural details waiting their turn. So let's deal with the exterior colours.

Shrike has already told us about the silver dope (aluminium powder dissolved or mixed with dope), and how the Mahoney/Hall/Lindbergh team decidec to skimp on that for weight reasons. I was just thinking that's exactly what "Slim" would wish. Very logical. Silver dope adds quite substantially to weight, and the aircraft wasn't supposed to last for ever, was it?

So silver dope for the fabric covering. How do we model that? My suggestion would be to use silver paper and print cutting lines, etc. on that. Not the exclusive metallic paper without texture, mind you, but the cheaper structured kind, used for crafts of different kinds. At least that's what I will want to try out first to simulate the fabric structure as well as silver dope.

Gremir gave us a tip in the previous thread for another kind of paper:

Quote:
Red River Paper has silver metallic paper for inkjets. They do not recomend it for the pigmented inks but the regular ones have no problems with it.
In addition, there was quite a detailed discussion on page 2 of that thread.

I will look for that kind of paper to print the engine cowl parts on. I believe Rafael's engine turned pattern in the kit will produce a great effect when printed on that kind of paper.

Just to remember what we are striving for, here's an inspirational photo:

[Click on thumbnails to get to the galleries with more photos]

As for printing, it would be important to modify the kit file so that folding lines are just barely visibly, or faintly marked at, or outside each end! We want to have a model where the folds were just that, and not black lines.

For the wings, I envisage a process of backing up the large silver parts with another layer cut to a pattern of leading edge + ribs, and then emboss the outer layer accordingly. No black lines for ribs, please!

Depending on what version of the Spirit we want to make, the spinner would merit extra attention - the engine turned pattern of the kit can only be preserved if we want to model the San Diego pristine version (and I don't think that's what most would want to do).

The spinner was exchanged in New York, due to a fault discovered in the original. Here's what the original looked like at San Diego:



And here's what the replacement added in New York still looks like hanging from the roof at the Smithsonian (note the slightly more pointed shape, which is a problem when modelling, since I think Rafael's version is more like the original San Diego spinner):



The kit spinner parts therefore would have to be modified, and I suggest the Red River kind of silver paper for it (simulating aluminium sheet metal).

The same goes for the prop. Here's a photo of a "Standard" logo, which could be applied to the prop blades:



The original spinner (the one not flying the Atlantic) now rests at the Smithsonian, with names inscribed of the people at Ryan's wishing Lindbergh a safe flight (which is what the sun symbol at the inside tip is all about - it's not a sinister sign pointing forwards towards Lindbergh's future wartime political bedfellows in the "America First" campaign to keep the US out of the war; that was yet to come).



Summing up: Print on structured silver paper for fabric-covered parts. Print on simulated sheet aluminium paper for engine cowl, spinner & prop parts. Minimize printed fold lines and use embossing techniques to simulate folds and indentations.

Leif

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 07-01-2008 at 10:15 AM. Reason: clearing up the finer points
Reply With Quote
Login to remove ads
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 8.70%
Parts of this site powered by vBulletin Mods & Addons from DragonByte Technologies Ltd. (Details)
Copyright © 2007-17, Paper Modelers.com