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View Poll Results: What do you think?
Finish the design. 61 63.54%
Make it very detailed. 46 47.92%
Make it a one page quick build plane 9 9.38%
Get another hobby and let the pros take care of this. 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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  #111  
Old 03-21-2012, 06:59 PM
Zathros Zathros is offline
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Man, you have nailed this concept right on the head. I had asked about this a long time ago. The response was, "eh", but seeing you do it, I knew this would work. The result will and could be as accurate a skinning yo the level anyone wanted to take it to. Think how easy it would be to make a press to emboss rivet points on panels, by lining adjoining overlapping panels, they would lock them in place (for reference points)... the paper would have to be extremely thin. Very cool Mike!
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  #112  
Old 03-22-2012, 07:01 AM
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mldixon mldixon is offline
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Originally Posted by Zathros View Post
Man, you have nailed this concept right on the head. I had asked about this a long time ago. The response was, "eh", but seeing you do it, I knew this would work. The result will and could be as accurate a skinning yo the level anyone wanted to take it to. Think how easy it would be to make a press to emboss rivet points on panels, by lining adjoining overlapping panels, they would lock them in place (for reference points)... the paper would have to be extremely thin. Very cool Mike!
Interesting idea about the rivets. I agree on the very thin paper, managed to get a Vellum overlay printed and transferred the panel lines. Will post soon I hope the results.
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  #113  
Old 03-22-2012, 02:31 PM
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Mike, in one fell swoop, you have just advanced the art of paper modeling into the 21st century. Your egg crate subframe opens up a host of options! As far as the Harpoon is concerned, you can easily model the torpedo bay into the design.

One comment about panel lines, and this is my version of the discussion that has "raged" among the plastic modeling community since forever! I come from the school of aviators who insist that there were no cables or trenches cast over or cut into the aircraft we fly. Similarly, the manufacturers did not laboriously paint black lines all over the aircraft to delineate the demarcation of panel lines.

The other side of the story insists that there must be something to break up the outline of the model or else it becomes a boring blob.

Both sides of the argument were and remain absolutely correct. Therefore, about 2 decades ago, various and sundry modelers began experimenting with a number of techniques to represent panel lines in more subtle ways, undersurface shading, counter-shading, even pencil lines (which I used on an airplane and won a the National level).

So, I humbly, and I do mean humbly, suggest since you are doing ALL the work, that instead of bold black lines that seem to festoon many of the models we build, that you either shade the panel lines of use a more subtle gray line to suggest the presence of the panel. The shade of grey would depend on where an imaginary light source was hitting the seam. Logically, those on the upper part of the aircraft would be lighter and those on the bottom darker.

In both cases, the lines would be fine. Those areas where there are gaps between panels such as flaps, ailerons, etc. might reasonably executed in black. Since this is going to be a large model, you might even simulate rivets in the areas where they would have been most prominently visible on the aircraft. Ruben Andres Martinez is doing just that on his restoration of the huge Alan Rose DC-3.

Again, ideas for you to use or loose as you see fit. Thanks for even taking them into consideration!
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  #114  
Old 03-22-2012, 06:52 PM
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spencermitchellmusic spencermitchellmusic is offline
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Charles, I agree with you as far as drawing the panel lines in a lighter shade of grey or have the line shaded. Also, please forgive me for being picky but most of the "dots" that you see printed on models of planes this size are not rivets. All of the removeable panels on this plane are held on by either screws or the aforementioned dzues fasteners. Any rivets on the plane would be unseen at this scale, the dzues fasteners however are quite large on the actual plane and would need to be drawn on (a challange I would not want to undertake as I know from experiance how many screws and fasteners there are on this beast!).
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  #115  
Old 03-22-2012, 08:12 PM
Zathros Zathros is offline
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Originally Posted by spencermitchellmusic View Post
Charles, I agree with you as far as drawing the panel lines in a lighter shade of grey or have the line shaded. Also, please forgive me for being picky but most of the "dots" that you see printed on models of planes this size are not rivets. All of the removeable panels on this plane are held on by either screws or the aforementioned dzues fasteners. Any rivets on the plane would be unseen at this scale, the dzues fasteners however are quite large on the actual plane and would need to be drawn on (a challange I would not want to undertake as I know from experiance how many screws and fasteners there are on this beast!).
A good point. It's amazing how close you have to get to full size craft to see the rivets. Once painted, they are super hard to see.
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  #116  
Old 03-22-2012, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by spencermitchellmusic View Post
Charles, I agree with you as far as drawing the panel lines in a lighter shade of grey or have the line shaded. Also, please forgive me for being picky but most of the "dots" that you see printed on models of planes this size are not rivets. All of the removeable panels on this plane are held on by either screws or the aforementioned dzues fasteners. Any rivets on the plane would be unseen at this scale, the dzues fasteners however are quite large on the actual plane and would need to be drawn on (a challange I would not want to undertake as I know from experiance how many screws and fasteners there are on this beast!).
Spencer, your observations are indeed valid and perfectly appropriate! I was not sure if the whole of Hot Stuff was flush riveted. And, the scale in which it is being modeled would make rivet detail stick out like a sore thumb!

However, a picture is worth a thousand words. I did this in a few minutes in Photoshop. As you look at an airplane from ground level, in this case one painted OD, you see a gradation of colors based on sun angle, wear, and who knows what else!

Here is a sample panel complete with rivets. I created one rivet and copied it. There is no scaling, just a demonstration. You'll note that the rivets are even worn to the aluminum on one side. Sun angle is above and to the left. Notice that there is a clear, yet subtle, panel line but no lines to speak of. That's a pictorial view of my concept.

Also note that the only place I used grey, and a light one at that, was to simulate paint weathering to the aluminum. Othewise, I shaded the panels in successive shades of OD. The only place you can "see" the original color is just above the darkened area. Above that and below the darkened area you see only shades of OD.
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Lockheed PV 2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"-untitled-1.jpg  
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  #117  
Old 03-22-2012, 08:17 PM
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cdavenport cdavenport is offline
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If you can send a closeup picture of the style of Dzus fastener used on Hot Stuff, I'll draw one and send it to Mike for shading. Once drawn, it's just a matter of copying and scaling....I hope!

Those would look really good on cowl sections and inspection panels.
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  #118  
Old 03-23-2012, 08:21 AM
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spencermitchellmusic spencermitchellmusic is offline
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Your drawing looked good Charles. I probably wouldn't be able to get a very good picture of the fastener as I only have a cheap digital camera, but they are nothing speacial. From the exterior of the plane they only appear as very large standart flat head screws (about 1/2" in diameter) that sit flush to the panel.
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  #119  
Old 03-23-2012, 11:00 AM
Zathros Zathros is offline
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It appears, except for the nose section, the plane had super thin panel lines and no rivets! I think the panel lines appear in this plane because it been sitting in the sun for over half a century. The photos were obtained from this site:

Warbirds and Airshows - Lockheed PV-2 Harpoon Photo Gallery



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  #120  
Old 03-24-2012, 03:24 PM
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mldixon mldixon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencermitchellmusic View Post
Your drawing looked good Charles. I probably wouldn't be able to get a very good picture of the fastener as I only have a cheap digital camera, but they are nothing speacial. From the exterior of the plane they only appear as very large standart flat head screws (about 1/2" in diameter) that sit flush to the panel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdavenport View Post
If you can send a closeup picture of the style of Dzus fastener used on Hot Stuff, I'll draw one and send it to Mike for shading. Once drawn, it's just a matter of copying and scaling....I hope!

Those would look really good on cowl sections and inspection panels.

Here is a closeup of the fastener in question.
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Lockheed PV 2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"-image-35.jpg  
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