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  #11  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:40 AM
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Tim Crowe Tim Crowe is offline
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I have found that translating build instructions doesn't really help

The best source of info is other peoples build threads:

tomcat

WWW.KONRADUS.COM - FORUM MODELARZY KARTONOWYCH - F-14 Tomcat AH relacja z budowy

[Galeria]..'Just do it'.. F-14 A Tomcat KA 1:33

Tim
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2017, 05:22 AM
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skyman00 skyman00 is offline
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David,
If you’re interested, I have an 8MB file that has detailed photos (about 200) of each step of this Tomcat’s (’01) build. If so, PM me. -J
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2017, 08:51 AM
RickPink65 RickPink65 is offline
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[QUOTE=hetzer;595108]Because extensive drawings and text explanation are not really required and are waste of space. Saying that - this sort of kits from Halinski ARE NOT for beginners, so experienced modelers should be able to use them. That is why every time before starting a kit all drawings should be thoroughly examined and checked out. In my opinion drawings within the kits are more than enough to complete the build. I hardly ever read text description, and can get all information required even from simple diagrams.

cheers

I completely disagree with you. With all due respect, it seems to me that you know very little about marketing and selling a product designed to be purchase by any human being and not only for "experts" or "experienced builders" thus extensive and detailed drawings plus written step by step instructions ARE MANDATORY. Some manufacturers are aware of this: ModelArt, for example, Dr. Zarkov's models are very complex but any chap CAN build it perfectly. Other example is Schreiber which uses the best method of all: Glue following number sequence plus excellent description and drawings. And don't forget that a very high percentage of card models are sold through the web where you do not have any chance of examining the complete model sheets to find out if one can build it or not.

Best wishes, greetings from sunshine state.
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  #14  
Old 09-09-2017, 02:34 PM
hetzer hetzer is offline
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Originally Posted by RickPink65 View Post
I completely disagree with you. With all due respect, it seems to me that you know very little about marketing and selling a product designed to be purchase by any human being and not only for "experts" or "experienced builders" thus extensive and detailed drawings plus written step by step instructions ARE MANDATORY.
It seems you like to be led by hand throughout whole build... And also seem you think all models are for all modelers - that is unfortunately not true. Not every modeler will be able to build Halinski kits. Not only because there are "insufficient" drawings and diagrams but because of lack of skill - give e.g. Hal's Tomcat or Panther or T34 to a rookie and see what happens XD and after over 20 years of card model building can easily say, I dont think anybody can build any card model kit.

Maybe you would like to have every single component broken down to sub assemblies? That is actually waste of space - there are limitations regarding number of sheets and space for components - have you considered that? that goes with cost of printed kits as well ... hence maximizing the space by putting as much info into single drawing limits the paper or card sheets used for the kit. ... It is also down to designer not the publisher to do the instructions & diagrams ... but what do I know about marketing...

Text is not exactly required - unless you really like idiot proof products...(seems you do) Translating it into other languages is not cheap option (to do it well) but internet can do it for you though. Models are also designed in their manufacturers language, mostly for local markets not global ... if you want to buy them, make an effort and learn at least basic phrases - it will make your life easier (not much is really required when you get used to it ... Dont forget it is a physical product not a file on the web so it has limitations.

Like everything was made exactly for your personal liking... it would be grand wouldn't it?

By the way, you seem to know a lot about the products and card modeling, admitting it at 07-09-2017:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickPink65 View Post
Just discovered paper models and I am sure I will learn a lot here.

New to paper modeling and this forum. I am sure I will learn a lot
RICK
Post some of your works at the forum, I will gladly give you some tips

Cheers
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2017, 04:03 PM
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Sakrison Sakrison is offline
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It seems you like to be led by hand throughout whole build... And also seem you think all models are for all modelers -
I think this thread has gotten a little out of hand. I didn't start it to start an argument.

For more complex models, experience helps; no one's arguing with that. But if someone wants to tackle Halinski's Yamato as their first paper model, who am I to say, "It's not for them." It's a hobby, not a contest.

I think we would all agree that paper model instructions and diagrams can vary widely from thorough to vague to nonexistent. I was frustrated with some vague instructions and drawings and I took it out on my keyboard. Let's leave it at that.

--David
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On the bench: Halinski's F-14A Tomcat - 1:33
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2017, 07:51 PM
RickPink65 RickPink65 is offline
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Originally Posted by hetzer View Post
It seems you like to be led by hand throughout whole build... And also seem you think all models are for all modelers - that is unfortunately not true. Not every modeler will be able to build Halinski kits. Not only because there are "insufficient" drawings and diagrams but because of lack of skill - give e.g. Hal's Tomcat or Panther or T34 to a rookie and see what happens XD and after over 20 years of card model building can easily say, I dont think anybody can build any card model kit.

Maybe you would like to have every single component broken down to sub assemblies? That is actually waste of space - there are limitations regarding number of sheets and space for components - have you considered that? that goes with cost of printed kits as well ... hence maximizing the space by putting as much info into single drawing limits the paper or card sheets used for the kit. ... It is also down to designer not the publisher to do the instructions & diagrams ... but what do I know about marketing...

Text is not exactly required - unless you really like idiot proof products...(seems you do) Translating it into other languages is not cheap option (to do it well) but internet can do it for you though. Models are also designed in their manufacturers language, mostly for local markets not global ... if you want to buy them, make an effort and learn at least basic phrases - it will make your life easier (not much is really required when you get used to it ... Dont forget it is a physical product not a file on the web so it has limitations.

Like everything was made exactly for your personal liking... it would be grand wouldn't it?

By the way, you seem to know a lot about the products and card modeling, admitting it at 07-09-2017:



Post some of your works at the forum, I will gladly give you some tips

Cheers
I still insist that any type of model can and will fall into any type of modeler or enthusiast. It is impossible for a model manufacturer or printer to follow who will buy a certain model. They are available to general public, not only to experienced modelers. That is why they should have precise step by step instructions. If some modelers don't want to use these instructions, well, don't use them, But they are extremely useful to Joe Average type of human being. Plastic models like Revell, Monogram etc, also make great efforts to include good and clear instructions and with no language because they aim global market, not local ones since we live on a globalized world. And the cost problem is not an excuse. Sometimes printers waste a lot of paper when they print the parts. One beautiful exception of this paper waste is GELI. They use almost all the available sheet space to include as much parts as possible. Any manufacturer who really wishes to sell their products to any type of person, (and they need too, otherwise they don't make money) WILL give complete instructions. There are several examples out there. Just check them out. And when a modeler is satisfied with the product, he will come back for more.
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2017, 08:18 PM
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skyman00 skyman00 is offline
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David,
PM received, email sent. -J
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2017, 08:56 PM
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rickstef rickstef is offline
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Rick,

You make a valid point, most of us came from a plastic modeling background, and yes those big sided assembly diagrams are great.
And we would spend hours looking it over before we ever got started.

Now, switching to the paper realm, depending the format, instructions are readily available, yes I know this is counter to your argument, but stick with me, you'll like where I end up.
Like I said, depending on the format, you have the instructions right at your hands, say you download a PDO based model, it can be opened in Pepakura, either the viewer or designer application(if they are not locked), one of the cool things of Pepakura is, you can actually click on a part on the parts sheet, and the piece will be highlighted on the model, and the rest of the model is grayed out, kinda cool, or you can select multiple parts and see where they need to go. Gary Pilsworth does this with his build diagrams, using Pepakura to high light certain segments and where they go. An interactive build diagram.

Granted there are some designers who do not do instructions, but do provide step by step photographic instructions, some of the Japanese designers do this, so a photo realistic build diagram. A picture says a 1000 words, right?

Then there are people who build models, and share their building experience on forums like this one, photographs, alerts in order to pay attention to this piece or that piece.
Questions can be asked of the builder, and if you just happen be lucky enough, the designer or publisher might chime in, thinking of Aaron Murphy, and the Zarkovs.
And the beauty of the forum(save for picture hosting sites acting stupid), the build thread acts as a perpetual build diagram. So some designers can point to a thread or a forum, and say, check those guys out.

Granted there will be designers who will never release an assembly diagram or instructions, but look at look at the kit as a puzzle to be solved, in this case a 3D puzzle.
And that is perfectly fine, challenging oneself is good.

And keep in mind, there are some of us, scattered all across the world, who have been building paper models for quite sometime, so there will be times where those of us, picking up the latest GPM or HMV or which ever publisher you like, will only look at the diagrams included as a hint, not something that is interpreted as gospel, it is a like a sign on the highway, going to Grandma, and you know the way, but you need to make sure that you take the correct exit, so you look up at the signs, but for the rest of the trip, you know how to get there, and that is how these diagrams are meant to be used.

You, like 76K+ others who have joined here, are amongst kindred spirits, we have been where you have been, and we have learned, and grown, and like my favorite branch of the service(US Marine Corps), Adapt, Improvise and Overcome.
It is not the end of the world if a kit doesn't have a build instruction like you find inside the latest kit from Revell or Meng, but the kit can still be built, and particularly if it is a digital kit, if you mess up, reprint!

Rick
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  #19  
Old 09-10-2017, 12:06 AM
hetzer hetzer is offline
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I think this thread has gotten a little out of hand. I didn't start it to start an argument.
--David
Sorry about that.... wont be diverting from the topic again after this;P I am curious about the outcome of your tomcat though. Hal kits are great but not free from mistakes - so watch yourself there XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakrison View Post
For more complex models, experience helps; no one's arguing with that. But if someone wants to tackle Halinski's Yamato as their first paper model, who am I to say, "It's not for them." It's a hobby, not a contest.
This bloody thing is scary! but... If one without or very low skill wants to tackle this model - it will cost much time, effort, money with rather poor or even no results. Complexity of model should go with skill.

And comparing plastic models to card ones is not exactly valid cause plastic is a snap fit type of assembly. Card modeling is actually building from flat piece of card a 3d object, with all components made, not ready just to cut out. Drawings dont have to explain how to fold or make certain things - that again comes out of experience. And lastly Rick, If you dont like the drawings and dont like Polish text, dont buy this models - if you ever had a printed, ready kit. Stick to internet downloads. And no, manufacturers dont think globaly. Dont think everything is made for average joe and his habit of having everything on silver platter. And thats it, I wont make any more remarks, but will be waiting for your models Rick... Show off what you have got.

Dave, Sorry again, and happy modeling Will be poking my nose here anyways from time to time :P
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  #20  
Old 09-10-2017, 08:09 AM
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skyman00 skyman00 is offline
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David,

A couple of threads over on China's Cardmodel site (warning: page load take's a while, at least for me).

Eric50482抯-
1:33 Halinski F-14A TOMCAT(9/14一年後的更新...) - 坠机区(Aborted Projects) - CM纸模网 - Powered by Discuz!

Ferrarifan抯-
http://shop.cardmodel.cn/forum.php?m...F-14A%2BTomcat

Hope these help. -J

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