Look! another paper Model Thief?

[Ron Caudillo]

Hi all,
First off, I do NOT intend to turn this into one of those big ugly copy-right/distribution/etc. flame wars that can sometimes arise on this sensitive subject. Administrators- Please feel free to take any action you deem appropriate if it starts to turn bad.

Second, as a model designer who loves to be creative (isn't this what it is all about anyway?) and challenge myself, my designs are freely given and I welcome anyone to 'repaint' or make 'add-ons' for the sole purpose to improve the model for the better enjoyment of all. I just ask that nothing be charged for the derivitives and that I am given initial credit as the designer of the model. You are free to credit yourself for your work as well, I feel that you've got that right. Maybe others disagree, but this is my take on the matter concerning my designs.

My purpose in this post is to seek counsel and advice from the community; I value and respect each and every opinion even if I may not personally agree.

Here is the answer I received from my initial contact with the seller ('service provider'):
"Hello there, I am very sorry that my services may cause you offense and this was never my intention. The original reason why I started printing these models was exactly this reason, someone asked if I could print this model for them as their printer was not working properly, I said I would and just charged them for the paper and ink/time etc. They had a friend that saw their model and also asked as they had no printer at all.
It clearly states that these models are free online and I do not design them or anything.
I have even had requests for me to build them up and sell them to people.
If these model files are taken to a printers in the high street (Here in uk), it can cost a minimum of £20 per model on lesser quality paper/resolution. (Prontaprint).
If these models are sold built up, is that also an issue?
I am a printer, and like I said, this was not meant to offend or upset. No disrespect is intended by my service, and I'm sure that I can sort this promptly.
Sincerest and warmest regards
Hope to speak to you soon
Nick

- minialbert"

As far as I am concerned, I have no issue with someone who builds one of my designs then charges for the completed model. I think this is fair to the builder as the 'kit' is not being sold. Again, just my own opinion concerning my designs.

Thank you all in advance!

Best Regards,

[airdave]

If he wants to build a model and then sell the assembled kit, then I have no
problem with this and he does not need to seek permission.
Ron is absolutely right on this one!

I'm glad you got some sort of response Ron, at least this guy is listening (to some degree).
And I agree with and respect your personal choice to freely share your work.
I've said it a million times
...download it, print it, build it,resize it, recolour it, modify it, whatever you want, as long as its for personal use

I still stand by my statement that it is necessarry to ask permission to sell
or just redistribute someone else's artwork...and he did not do this with any
of the models he is selling.
Claiming that he is only selling printing services, is a lie...once the model has been
included in the service, it becomes part of the sale.

This guy realized he could download a free model, print it out and then resell it
...and make money doing it.

The fact that the model was free to download has no significance.

What if I buy and download a model from ecardmodels? or modelart?
and then print out many copies and sell them on ebay for an inflated price.
Actually, it doesn't matter what price...I still haven't asked for, or received,
the permission to do this (from the original source of the files).

Even if he is only selling his printing services, he is using the modelas the carrier for those services
and that is using the model in a "commercial" manner,
which is generally disallowed by most free model producers.


..........................

I agree, lets not turn this into another giant debate about copyrights.
This is a simple question of whether you agree he is doing something wrong or not.
And if you think he is doing something wrong, then let him know, let eBay know, let everyone know.
Thats what I am going to do...even though he isn't selling my models.

[Loui]

... not having any printer or expensive papers are NOT an excuse... he's a Eb#y seller who sold those 'Free' model International, Not to his Friends n neighbor... and make a profit out of it... that's my logic thinking.

[airdave]

I just sent this message to minialbert...I think many more should do the same, so our voice is heard.

"hello minialbert...I am contacting you to remind you that you are redistributing paper models that you have no right or permission to do so. I am a member of a large paper Modelers community and we fight piracy constantly. Your claims of "only selling printing services" are not true...since the model is included in the sale. This means you are using the model for commercial purposes which is also a copyright infringment. You have not asked for or received permission from the original owners or designers to re-distribute thier models (regardless of the fact that they are "free internet downloads"). I am forwarding the same information to the original owners of these designs and to eBay. I am advising you to remove the models for sale. thankyou for your attention. Dave Winfield "

I can't really put in a complaint with eBay since I am not the owner of any of the models
...but they should be notified that ALL of the models for sale are being sold without proper permissions.

[doctormax]

Originally Posted by airdave

I just sent this message to minialbert...I think many more should do the same, so our voice is heard.

"hello minialbert...I am contacting you to remind you that you are redistributing paper models that you have no right or permission to do so. I am a member of a large paper Modelers community and we fight piracy constantly. Your claims of "only selling printing services" are not true...since the model is included in the sale. This means you are using the model for commercial purposes which is also a copyright infringment. You have not asked for or received permission from the original owners or designers to re-distribute thier models (regardless of the fact that they are "free internet downloads"). I am forwarding the same information to the original owners of these designs and to eBay. I am advising you to remove the models for sale. thankyou for your attention. Dave Winfield "

I can't really put in a complaint with eBay since I am not the owner of any of the models
...but they should be notified that ALL of the models for sale are being sold without proper permissions.

i sent an email to ebay. about them been free models and that the owners have not for commercial use as he is selling them as a commerical service.

so where is that Cobra mercury lads are do i have to go looking on yahoo for it and the real site rather like the look of it this car buff

[Loui]

i just email Julles regarding his starwars 74z-speeder bike/scout trooper model...

[airdave]

FYI

I just got an email from minialbert about his eBay sales.
I sent him messages earlier today, for three of his model sales, in regards to the piracy issues.

This is his email response:
Hi there, many thanks for your comments. The fact that the 'original' copyright infringement is committed by a person who copies that design from its original place, i.e. TV show, Movie etc. You have not even asked who has created these models, just presumed they are from the same people you know. As I said to the gentleman who says he designed one of the Star Trek models, it is not, and has not been my intention to offend or 'rip off' any designers, I was merely originally providing a printing service by request of a friend who had no access to a good quality printer. May I genuinely ask, please, if you have no access to a printer, and you wish to make one of these models, how do you get them printed off? Over in UK, I took one of the models to ProntaPrint, (a UK printing company), and the quote was £20 plus VAT! that is mad! Also, is wasn't going to be on high enough gsm paper nor photo gloss. Are people not allowed to take such models to a printers to print for them?
I have seen on here and similar auction sites people simply downloading and putting on to a CD the original file from the modeler's sites. This I could understand a breach of rule or agreement with the original site, as you are doing nothing other than taking the file, I however do supply a service of printing the product for people, getting more people into this great hobby.
Does somebody in the paper craft community offer this kind of service to people already/ Is that why people are mad?
The models are offered for free, for people to print and make, I am only a middle man printing for people, and offer the extra service of foiled papers, laminates etc that can not be downloaded. I am not aware of anyone being able to print on to acetate in the domestic environment?
I think I have run out of room, but I am happy to continue this conversation. I am going to address the listings I have as soon as possible, and will double check with Ebay in regards to rules. Regards

and FYI, I sent this back:
from Dave Winfield...canada paper modelers [[email protected]]
ww.cutandfold.info
you can also reach me at papermodelers.com

The models you are selling
(yes, you are selling them since they are included in your sales, regardless of HOW you word it!)
are not owned by you, and you did not get permission to sell them or redistribute them in any manner.
-simple...you DID NOT ASK FOR OR GET PERMISSION-

I happen to know the owners and designers of these models and I know where they can be downloaded.
...except fot Uhu's Samaritan Gun, which is no longer available as a result of piracy acts like this.
All the models are available, for download, at no charge, for PERSONAL AND PRIVATE USE ONLY.

You can not assume because they are freely available that it gives you license to use them for your own personal gain.
And by offering them in printed form, you are using them commercially and for your own personal gain.

I don't care how you justify your actions...I don't care about your desire to provide the world with affordable printing options!
Fact is...you downloaded a model and (without any permission) are redistributing that model and earning money from the
sale of the models.

I too offer free downloadable models...you can download them, build them, and show them to your friends.
But don't post them on any other website, don't distribute them in any form without my permission and
DON'T SELL THEM ON EBAY!

stop selling them now.
dave

[airdave]

just another follow up...

i got two more emails from Nick (minialbert)

I haven't checked to see if the models have been removed from eBay, but i did get an apology
and an explanation that he did not completely understand the ethics and legalities of "selling" printed models in this manner.

He claims ignorancy, stating that he believed a "free" internet model meant he could sell printed copies.

As we have said before, we must respect and credit responses and efforts to fix things, just as much as we fight to get our message across.

I definitely didn't sugar coat my opinions with him and maybe thats a necessary approach to get the point across?
but hopefully he understands that I am only interested in protecting the interest of fellow modellers.

I did invite Nick to come and view this forum and thread (which I think he did).
He sent a bunch of questions about paper models and copyright issues...
I am going to suggest he join up and post those questions here.

The world didn't end today...but we might have made a convert!

[Texman]

Good work Dave

[shawnr5]

Originally Posted by doctormax

so where is that Cobra mercury lads are do i have to go looking on yahoo for it and the real site rather like the look of it this car buff

The Merc is one of Claudio Dias' wonderful models and can be found at:
Stallone Cobra | FREE paper models