Copyright.Just where do we draw the line?

[Plumdragon]

I guess my first real posting should be about the paper model I'm making, but I've never been one to shy away from thorny issues.... this is prompted by Michael Dazzo's post and a model I've seen on here (more on that later)
To be clear, I'm talking about models which designers intend to sell, and the question is, how many times are we breaking International Law by using images and/or designs that are owned by someone else? I say international, as I'm referring largely to download models, which by their nature are globally accessible, and by the same token, as designers we are able to access almost the entire Planets' store of information/images.
Many years ago I tried unsuccessfully to set up in business selling my models, and found out that here is a minefield for the unwary. I was steered away from a Sopwith Camel I wanted to do, as the family of the WWI Ace who flew it had sole use of anything to do with him, including images of his machine (which a paper model would've been) No 'named' or 'branded' anything at all, either, which included at that time such things as the good old British telephone box (design owned by the Post Office) and you wouldn't believe the palaver involved in producing a saleable paper model of a public building in 'legal' form.
As to the model on here I mentioned, kudos to the designer for a splendid job, but it is of a famous UK road hauliers vehicle, and that operator jealously guards its name and image, or so I understand. We could argue that the likelihood of getting into any bother is slim, which is probably what that chap in Columbia thought....
So, where do we, if we intend to sell anything we make, stand regarding all this? You only have to pick up any sort of product to see the TM or C-in-a-circle logo to realise how fraught this could be. Even words have been copyrighted as part of company promo. For sure, if you're offering something for free, then it's a free plug to the company involved, but as I said, I'm talking about paper models that are being sold, and I'm not sure that some folk would take too kindly to their logo/livery/product being used for personal gain. And I'm not even sure if there is any 'age related' get-out clause either, for instance Airfix have reissued their big Bentley kit (sorry to mention p*a*t*c!) but not with the racing numbers of the original 1970's kit, as that vehicle is now owned by 'A Famous Person' and all use of anything to do with what is now his car is subject to paying him for the privilege to do so.
But what do I know??? Your thoughts would be welcome, and apologies if I've kicked the hornets' nest.... and don't even get me started on the "children should be supervised, cutting tools are sharp, glue is lethal" legal wording....
Plumdragon

[Texman]

Well, you have kicked the hornets nest, just be ready for the swarming and stinging. True, it is a thorny issue, with as many opinions and facts as we have members.

Be advised, anything other than a civil discussion will be dealt with "like a hornet".

[SJPONeill]

It's not sure to me what you point is. It is the designer/publisher's responsbility to ensure that the respect and comply with any copyrights or trademarks around a given subject. Generally, if you are not building for sale, then most subject are OK but if you are selling an item, then you need to ensure that you have the relevant authority to use any protected items.

Some organisations get greedy/over-protective but while that may be dumb, in many cases it is actually legal. Where an item is generally in the public domain, they may lose any challenge e.g. when teh UK MOD tried to get royalties for any use of the RAF roundel...short sharp contact on that one...

[airdave]

Originally Posted by SJPONeill

Generally, if you are not building for sale, then most subject are OK...

once again...this is an often repeated, but totally misleading and false statement.
Free or for sale does not change copyright law and restrictions.
Too many of you think all kinds of things are allowed as long as you are sharing for free.

[Damraska]

I do not understand what the original poster wishes to discuss.

[OhioMike]

Everyone wants their share of the pie....Disney has the most vociferous lawyers of them all...The wright brothers were known more for the lawsuits they filed to pillage other designers who might have been even close to wing warping and other things they considered THEIR ideas then they were to designing aircraft! Check the papers back then on any aviation stories and you'll see a large percentage were about their lawsuits. Revel and monogram were pushed to the wall for a long time about using the word boeing, Rockwell, Grumman, or even the specific designs. I believe at one point they were forced to sell a c-130 kit as simply a transport plane? Lawsuits over water rights, whats considered wetlands, and soon enough.....the air you breath! Lawsuits over common language not being common language because a company got some screwy judge to agree to allow copywrite? Human society at its best, or simply an artist struggling to protect his or her intellectual property? Wheres all this going to lead with the web? They have already made it so you cant download some images, right clock and save. We all have a found a way around that with print screen. But theres more comeing! The recent attacks on file shareing sites by goverments all over. That should have been proof positive just how powerfull lawyers are!n Either way, don't think for one minute, us little folks in the minuscule world of papermodeling are immune. When they figure how to track those who downloaded paper models like they have for those that downloaded music....youll be visited by one of those coat and tie types with an invoice! Another reason, if not the most important reason NOT to download pirated models!!!!! ecards and Daves site among others don't charge much and theres a lot there!!! I support intellectual rights even though some of the above might not sounded like it...I just hate lawyers and their 33rd and a 1/3rd BS!!!!
Mike

[airdave]

I say, if you want to make a paper model and share it, and it contains some element that is copyrighted material
...I'm talking about the theme of the model, say Star Trek related...
then use your best judgement, and keep it fan art level and keep it fairly quiet.

And don't BS me. You guys know what stuff you are producing is copyrighted.

Don't try to sell it for money, don't flaunt it, don't advertise it on TV,
don't claim it as some sort of original design,
don't try to flog it on eBay or facebook, don't try to get rich with it.

Just share it on a small scale and share it with like minded people. I mean your model peers.

And if someone comes along, claiming to represent the copyright holder, with proper credentials, asking you to stop distributing,
then remove it quietly and quickly,
and thank your lucky stars thats all you got told.

Thats exactly what I will do if anyone ever complains about one of my Koolwheelz models.


Don't poke the Bear!@!

[spaceagent-9]

if you are taking money out of someone's pocket.
or stealing their fame.
the end.

[at6]

If I even suspect that something is pirated, I won't download it. Unless it says free to the builder and not for resale, it is off limits. For that reason I thank all of the designers who have so generously provided the free models that keep me in this hobby. Even more so since I am crappy at designing and almost as crappy at building.

[rockpaperscissor]

Isn't there some law against cruelty to dead horses?