Tinkering with designs

**legal01** · #1 11-18-2014, 12:13 AM

After the fight that almost developed regarding UHU's designs it got me thinking, as the forum knows I tend to tinker with allot of designs that are uploaded on this and various other sites to improve the designs (well in my opinion anyway) and I have always been careful to obtain consent from the original designer before doing so.

So here is my question, if a design is uploaded on here and another user decides he can tinker with and improve it is there any reason why he shouldn't do so even without the consent of the original designer?

As long as the design is improved and the original designer is acknowledged is there any harm in doing that and should the original designer be offended? If it improves the design where is the harm?

Thoughts anyone?

**Rhaven Blaack** · #2 11-18-2014, 01:08 AM

You have brought a very interesting point.
As you well know (as well as everyone else), both Revell-Fan and I have been making (an have plans for more) add-on kits for Martin Saenger's Thunder Fighter. Revell-Fan is in (regular) contact with Martin and every time a new add-on kit is finished, it is sent to Martin for review, approval and upload to his site.
Not only that, but I have been (slowly) working on expanding the collection of Tirick's figurines (the Colonial Viper Pilots and the EDD Thunder Fighter Pilots. There are quite a few more in the works). With each template that I finish, I send to Tirick for review, approval and upload to his site as well.
I strongly believe that anyone that wants to modify or improve a model for distribution (whether if it is on a forum such as this, or else where), the designer of the improved or modified" should asked for consent from the original designer of that kit to distribute the parts. Not only that, but if the original designer has a website (where the original model is hosted), it is a good idea to offer the modified or improved parts to be hosted on the site with the original model.
Now with that being said, if you are improving or modifying a model for your own personal use (i.e. a diorama, game board, or playset), then just crediting the original designer is the proper thing to do (so long as it is stated that the improved or modified parts or kit will not be released).
Personally, I think that doing the above mentioned is a matter of common courtesy and respect to the original designer and the community as a whole.

**Loui** · #3 11-18-2014, 01:29 AM

well... maybe it depend to who's model you tinkered... I've done it here on my build, like Change/adding some cockpit panel ( Dave's Mustang n Marek Hellcat.... others) and only the progress build pictures not the mod file....
surely they saw what Im doing it with their models, and i not getting any 'poke' at my forehead because of that.... hopefully not LOL!
I'm only done it for my own enjoyment... that's my point of view as a builder... don't know when you looking at at the designer point of view.

Regards,
Loui

**Loui** · #4 11-18-2014, 01:31 AM

and i agreed with Rhaven Blaack....

"Personally, I think that doing the above mentioned is a
matter of common courtesy and respect to the original
designer and the community as a whole"

**maurice** · #5 11-18-2014, 01:50 AM

To confirm what has already been well said.

If the designer agrees or if it's done for your own use there is no problem.

But that is not what your nudging for here is it.

Clearly stated you want us to agree that it is all right to modify another persons intellectual property without that persons consent and to publish it as your own.

Yes you say "improved" - perhaps - but would that be the designers opinion - you do not know.
Yes you say you'll acknowledge the original designer - that might not be what he wants - you do not know.

You are pushing to go beyond good practice.

If you want a variant of a specific subject or if you feel what is available is not good enough
either

- negotiate with the designer
- forget it
- learn to design you own.

**Plumdragon** · #6 11-18-2014, 04:48 AM

Woooh, controversial subject! Now I know this has probably been done to death elsewhere, but it's often good to refresh a subject :-) those who know me are aware that I do like to get my teeth into controversial subjects now and again, so here goes....
If, as Maurice implies, the issue is whether a modified model (even if the original designer is credited) was offered by a "new" designer without the consent, if you like, of the original designer, then I think that would open the floodgates to a whole world of problems for that "new" design and the one who did it. I am sure Fiddlers Green would be most chagrined if I offered here, or elsewhere, all the "improved" models I have done over the years for my own personal amusement (both ones I originally designed, and by others) I have seen my work elsewhere, but that's out and out piracy, which is not what we're on about....
And, as I've said before, the issue of copyright and, indeed, intellectual property, has to be considered in this age of litigation etc etc etc.
A designer puts a lot of work into anything they create. I wholeheartedly agree with Rhaven's views regarding how to approach things with the original designer of any model that's re-worked, and of course, if approached the right way, I feel most designers would be happy to accommodate, but the small percentage that feels strongly that "their" model is their own and not to be messed with (rightly so) would be not at all impressed with anyone stealing (my perception) their work, modifying it, merely saying it was done by them originally (thereby implying it wasn't good enough in the I first place - again, my perception) and offering it for free, or worse, asking money for it!
Maurice's last three sentences really say it all :-)
Plumdragon

**Necroscope** · #7 11-18-2014, 07:47 AM

Team,
From my point of view:
- If somebody selling "improved" parts or modifications for my model and end-user have to buy my model too (i.e. conversion kit) - I'm OK with this.
- If somebody "improved" my model and selling it, pointing my name in "credits" and funding me with cost of my model for each sell - I'm OK.
- If somebody pay me for rights for my model - I'm OK - he can do whatever he want.
- If somebody buy my model and now selling it or parts of it to others (scanned of digitally copied) - I will fight this, despite the fact if he "improved" my model anyhow or not.

There no way however to force rights on design ideas, and actually I'm OK too if somebody will use mine.

Regards.

**amoebaboy** · #8 11-18-2014, 07:47 AM

as long as they show me them,and give me some sort of recognition, its just polite ! i have come to the conclusion that once you have set them free they they have a life of their own. if people wish to mess with them thats fine by me.

saying that ive been messing about with some of prudenziati's designs latley, difficult territory, some might consider it sacrilege, but i think he might have aprooved.
and of course i will give the great man due credit.

**Vermin_King** · #9 11-18-2014, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amoebaboy

as long as they show me them,and give me some sort of recognition, its just polite ! i have come to the conclusion that once you have set them free they they have a life of their own. if people wish to mess with them thats fine by me.

saying that ive been messing about with some of prudenziati's designs latley, difficult territory, some might consider it sacrilege, but i think he might have aprooved.
and of course i will give the great man due credit.

I would really like to see that. Photos?

**ContourCraig** · #10 11-18-2014, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legal01

So here is my question, if a design is uploaded on here and another user decides he can tinker with and improve it is there any reason why he shouldn't do so even without the consent of the original designer?
Thoughts anyone?

There are several grades of tinkering.
(1) modify one or two features, or none at all.
(2) Modify a substantial amount but leaving the design recognisble.
(3) Tinker so much that the design becomes unrecognisble.

(1) is a copyright infringement.
(2) is a copyright infringement (in my opinion) if the original design can be easily recovered.
(3) essential this becomes your own design.

Remember that copyright exists even if the design breaches copyright of an other; which is to prevent people copying a known infringer, then claiming that it was not their fault, because the guy they copied from the internet was really the chief culprit.

If I were to ask everyone's permission to 'tinker' with their design, a lot of designers would be bombarded with frivilous requests. The tinkering becomes an issue in my opinion when you wish to make your tinkering public. I guess that is why 'tinkering' for personal use is allowed.