Michael Jackson...differences...and the avoidance of thus...

[Keds_Girl_Lala]

My finger it is fine. Sadly I throw my finish and much print thing away so I have to start over.

[Ashrunner]

My main concern was to the limitations of free expression under the guise of ‘sensitivity.’ Insensivtity is marked by closing the minds to others, where it be dur to overt bigotry or politically correct manipulations...

I grew up in a part of the world where people argued and debated their radical worldviews regularly. They also took care of each other during storms and disasters.

DC

The night before Rick closed the thread, I thought long and hard on doing the same thing. I take freedom of speech VERY seriously...and I do mean VERY seriously. The first line of the oath of enlistment I raised my hand for five times reads, "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same." The Constitution is listed first above all others for defending, above obeying orders from the president and above obeying orders of those appointed over me. That is just how important the Constitution is, and to me.

After thinking very hard on the subject, I decided that the next morning I would close the thread in question. However, I was beaten to the punch.

My reasons for closing the thread were not in anyway, shape or form to stifle free speech, but prevent, as Rick similarly stated, to prevent the discussion from degrading into something it shouldn't be.

When two people argue face-to-face about something, expressions, antics and many other visual clues tell the participants how their points are being taken by the other person. When discussions online take place, they often turn into flame wars because those visual clues are not present.

Another reason for my thoughts to close the thread was because I could tell it was causing Keds_Lala_Girl pain.

There have been a number of threads on forums I have or are moderating which I would love to click the close button and be done with. But it will take a LOT for that to happen with me. If I ever do close a thread, it will be for any of a number of reasons, and not to limit freedom expression "under the guise of ‘sensitivity.'"

So basically, what I am trying to say, in probably too patriotic of a way, is there is more to freedom of speech than being able to say what you want, where you want, when you want. Remember...you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.

[Phil]

4 DC & KGLL, and anyone else...

I remain absent from debate due to my inability to follow intellectual discussion. I am very impressed by you both!

My emotions are too deeply tied to several members and I am afraid that bias prevents me from further voicing of my opinion.

Also, I am currently trying to remove that "bad boy" label I have worn so long for being in the hot seat.

I hope this does not further distance me from members that I truly admire.

I hereby relinquish my throne in satan's chair.

[Kaz]

Welcome back KGLala.
Welcome back to everyone who have had the sense to discuss this with honour and integrity.

[THE DC]

Ashrunner-"So basically, what I am trying to say, in probably too patriotic of a way, is there is more to freedom of speech than being able to say what you want, where you want, when you want. Remember...you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. "

First of all, thank you for your service. Thank you as well for your eloquent, but differing opinion on the matter. I am not offended or insulted by that fact that we disagree. I also do not believe you could be too patriotic; you earned the right to express yourself that way with your sacrifices of time and opportunities in the service to our country.

As to your point about yelling fire, true, that is not allowed, but that is because yelling fire in a crowded theatre would potentially generate irrevocable physical harm. Even being disparaged in this forum is a reasonable motive to feel insulted. Being disagreed with is not. A society must learn to be tolerant of difference, not just politically recognized differences of the social zeitgeist, attributed as a result of perceived social fashion.

When our feelings are so brittle as to not withstand difference, the issue is not with the speaker but the spoken to. For example; I strongly disagree with the move to close the thread. I do not hold it against either administrator, nor take it personally that we disagree. I respect that you have the authority to take whatever action you desire and recognize the power to exercise said action. I am a guest here and recognize the limitations as a guest when under the roof of another. Our differences do not automatically define our perceptions of each other. Our current respectful and reasonable dialogue bears witness to that.

I also, however, perceive it important that people do not get disparaged by being silenced, under the auspice of protecting others who may not require protection. If we are to be treated equal, we need to stand equally. This is not a politically sound position in today’s climate, I understand, and I further recognize I am playing the proverbial giraffe by sticking my neck out, but it is a principle I hold dear.

As an Irishman, I have a story related to this point: My grandfather passed a sign down to me one day. It read "Help Wanted- No Irish Need Apply." I recall asking him whether he complained about the content to anyone. He replied that he got another job instead. The he founded some of the most needed volunteer services in his community. After a while, the bigotry that was imposed upon him became too expensive to maintain by the bigots. He became simply too needed and too respected to be seen as a lesser person.

What I learned from that, and practice as much as my failing character can muster, is to avoid assuming someone is a certain way on the basis of my perceptions. This is not initially a popular approach, but often generates respect from those who are so different from me. I try not to assume they can not rise to the challenge of the equal role they choose to take on when entering into a relationship with me. I try to treat them as equals; praise and challenges alike. I assume the best of them; that they seek not my support but they seek to equally contribute to our mutual efforts.

I would like to encourage more females be part of this forum. I believe the best way is not to protect them but to respect them as equals. They do not need to be sheltered because their minds are as sharp and their hearts as mature as mine. Even in the heat of misunderstandings or differences, I trust they will respect my position that I do not defer as a result of their sex or perceived gender role.

Those that have joined here have demonstrated their artistic talents, many of which outshine my own paltry efforts. I would not ask weights be put upon their fingers to make me feel less challenged or the be discouraged in their production to make me feel more equal to their greater artistic skill. I would instead, expect that it is my challenge is to rise to their level of skill through effort. This would be to respect and learn from the disparagement between us.

I ask not to be rescued. I seek not to rescue those I respect can stand for themselves.

Again, I take no offense at the opposition, nor do I ask you to change your minds. I DO appreciate that this forum is allowing a free discussion of the events in their completeness. There are other forums that would not tolerate such conversation. Despite my perceptions, already stated, this demonstrates that PM deserves its two year anniversary. I do, however, maintain my difference out of conviction and still respect that our differences are of opinion, not of temperament or quality of character.

Further, I believe character is grown from the overcoming of instances of 'pain,' discomfort, or other opposition. My hope is that reflection upon these matters will encourage al involved in the previous thread to grow and respect each other a bit more. If so, then there will be less need for moderation, as we will have matured to the point of not needing it. I again speak of all of us; myself included.

Thank you for your well worded response; I appreciate, though disagree with your conclusion, and I hope in the end, the healthy examination of our differences will result in a better understanding between us all.

We may work with paper, but it is our hearts and minds that shape the material. Our minds must be sharpened with experience and our hearts strengthened through difference. May both become disciplined enough to rise to the next challenge.


Regards,


The DC


ps. Nice change in your avatar!

[THE DC]

Phil;"I hereby relinquish my throne in satan's chair."


You really expect me to believe you'll hold out much longer, Philly?

We know ya man....your fingers are itching!



The DC

[Keds_Girl_Lala]

I really want no ill will toward any one at all. It is not productive. I deal with hard ship, violence, abuse, intimidation, criticism, lack of boundary, etc on the daily basis. So it is nice to have some escape from that even if it is just with word and picture on the computer some time.


If there is some way to unwind the things and events to the day prior to Thursday it is best for all.

It is tiring to express so much in English also!

[Wilfried]

Hello to you all,

as a guy from a foreign country, interested in one stupid thing - cardmodelling and discussing about techniques and originals - it's nice to follow the meanings in this melting pot of interpersonality. The reason was that a singersongwriter was goin' to heaven. I think one dying person is enough. This should not be a reason that splits parts of this forum. We have the fantastic procedure of the Personal Message; we all have Skype - and we have this forum. More of this discussions can undertake this wonderful place.
Let us all thinking over ... and keep on glueing;
and thank you all, for the possibility to write unconvenienced and free

With loveley greetings
the Wilfried

[Phil]

Originally Posted by THE DC

You really expect me to believe you'll hold out much longer, Philly?

We know ya man....your fingers are itching!

My fingers are itching to build, not type!!!!!!!
Every throne must have its successor.

[THE DC]

Curses, Phil, the man made by God's blueprint [you though I forgot that post, huh?].

Curses!


The DC