Michael Jackson...differences...and the avoidance of thus...

[THE DC]

I posted last week on a thread regarding the recent passing of a well known pop star, noting my concerns regarding what I considered to be a bigger issue than the death of one man. Ironically, the thread has now played out along the lines of my initial concerns about our ability to deal with each other vs. the opportune reveling in some fantasy mindset.

There was a recent call to close this thread under the misguided banner of multicultural sensitivity; this strikes a cord in me. To have a multicultural society will require the give and take from BOTH parties during any supposed multicultural conflict. To suggest pandering to someone, as a result of cultural differences, is at best insulting to the other party and at worst and expression of bigotry; presuming the other party can not meet those differences half way.

There is no doubt that the member who initiated the thread is a valuable member. Her build threads have been excellent, the variety of her work impressive, and her tips most useful [most recently how to weather silver paper to appear aluminum; a very valuable tip]. But she is one member and one voice. She had a difference of opinion on the direction of a thread that she started. This happens. It is part of our community. It is one I currently risk by sticking my opinion out here. It is an issue to resolve through respectful discussion.

I reject the passive-aggressive argument that she must be protected from differing opinions, either because of her culture, her sex, or her value as a member.

“Dumb” begets of Freedom when being able to act free is not valued. This was a thread revealing considerable disagreement on a subject that is very touchy to people. The member staring the thread may not have realized upon opening it that there was a long held powder keg of emotions regarding this particular performer. People disagreed. I have not noted anyone be rude or too terribly hostile to any other. Strong opinions have been shared and, given the subject matter, handled as reasonably as could be expected.

Some people had expressed a desire to revel in a dead artist’s work and not explore the controversy of his life choices. Other’s had contended that his work is tainted by his actions and decisions. Others still had pointed out that many of his choices may be up for debate but that he should not be held in contempt for allegations, ala the Crucible, given he was never convicted by a court on charges of molestation. These are all reasonable positions. As I noted in my first post; we don’t really know anything about this person that hasn’t been filtered through dozens of media agendas. The problem with celebrity worship is your target of adoration is never truly represented accurately. It is all fantasy play.

What is not reasonable is to end the discussion because it is not going in the direction that any particular party did not like. That sort of passive-aggressive reaction is unhealthy and unproductive. Differences, when worked out, bring people closer together. Sure, heated words and people not getting what they want can result in some initial arousal, but avoidance of difference leads to patronizing attitudes and eventual distrust.

The member who started the thread could handle some difference if she wants to participate in a free & open discussion. I believe that she is being underestimated when it is decided that she can not handle the heat of debate. Her contributions have been and are valuable and I would hope that she chooses to engage or at least tolerate those differences. From my posts and responses to her posts with her I have found her quite resilient and intelligent. She doe not need protection. It is disrespectful to treat her differently because she is perceived to be different. She is not some symbolic, ignorant peasant girl from some Borat-driven fantasy; she is an intelligent contributor to our forum who just happens to have a different cultural background. In other words, a human no more different than any of us. This is an international forum requiring the recognition that differences are bound to be confronted. To ignore those differences remove the opportunity to understand each other better. To avoid those cultural differences is to deprive us all of the need to challenge our individually held beliefs, some of which may need challenging.

To pander to her is disrespectful to her. It implies she is not capable of handling this forum, or even handling differences of opinion. Such pandering could only be the result of a deep seated prejudice that she is not an equal due to her differences. One argument posted was that her cultural differences require special treatment.

I reject that. I have seen little evidence that the member who started the thread could not think and adapt as quickly as any other member on this forum. I would prefer working out differences with her rather than treating her as less capable than I.

Or perhaps, the encouragement to back off this discussion, and to silence the dissent, would be the result of deep invested sexism. In other words, since the member who started the thread is a woman she should be treated differently.

I reject that. A woman is as capable of building paper kits and sharing unique ideas toward artistic effort as she is handling the fact that people will disagree with her opinions. The nineteenth amendment is 80 years old in the US, the origin point of this forum. If we have come to an agreement to debate the choice of the leader of our nation, we certainly can agree to debate the relevant value of a pop star between the sexes. Equality means nothing if the other person requires special treatment.

Or the encouragement to back off would be promoted because the member who started the thread’s avatar is of a very attractive woman. That is, because she appears to be physically attractive, she should be treated differently in some manner than other members.

I reject that. Her appearance is not relevant to her role on this forum. Whether the image of the pretty young woman, that is depicted in her avatar, is actually a photo of her or not, has nothing to do with her ability to create art or debate differences of opinion. This is actually another form of sexism, as the assumption that an attractive woman should be treated differently than anyone else is actually demeaning to her and to any person making the presumption.

This also leads to the dangerous direction that less attractive people should be treated differently. This type of reasoning is at best, an expression of overt sexism, and at worst, a statement of opportunism. The member who started the thread, regardless of her actual appearance has chosen to join the forum. She has the responsibility to participate appropriately, which she has. We must therefore act equally appropriate in challenging her to be treated as a peer. I, for one, will not act differently toward her because I can not see past an avatar.

Were there heated words? Yes.

Were there differences of opinion? Most certainly.

I however applaud the administrator’s initial decision to leave the thread open because respect for differences is not made by ignoring differences. Respect is only built together, it is not given without exchange. It is the part of freedom that is smart, ands is the part that is not free. It is also necessary for true multi-cultural effort; both parties making concessions toward a workable relationship.

I return to my initial thesis the day this thread was opened. We need to spend more effort learning to build relationships with each other than proseltizing someone we have no contact with and with whom we really do not know. Being famous does not make a person better or more interesting unless we are not interested enough in each other, to make the effort to challenge and learn from each other. Spending more time on the people near us, and less on those who are propped up above us, will build more mature relationships and better conflict resolution skills.

My compliments to the administrator’s initial decision. It was reasonable and appropriate. My disappointment that the decision was reversed.

My challenge to all others who have participated: agree it is alright to have differences and part with the respect for each other for sharing them. Don’t shy from the differences or differing viewpoints no hide behind a tattered political philosophy which really is encouraging the demeaning of real relationship building.

Don’t stick you head in the sand. It may seem quieter and safer at first…but that’s how you smother.

And silencing disagreement usually results in nothing but silence.



The DC

[Phil]

What? no pictures of paper models? Sorry, not interested.

[OldTroll]

<<decides to just let it be>>

[buffalowings]

that post was good enough to be an essay! I'm surprised I read it all

[rickstef]

DC,

So you know, I closed the threads, because I didn't want anything to de-evolve into a war of words, I have seen it too many times.

Rick

[OldTroll]

Ummmmm...Rick? Too late. The weapons of mass "discussion" have been deployed.

[Nazgul]

This is the third thread I'm reading today on the subject.....and no I didn't nose in on the other two threads when I saw them....It's pretty obvious that each person has a different viewpoint...but it's not why we come here for right? We come here to share what we have on a COMMON interest we all share! So why don't we all get back to that and leave this kindda stuff out??? I'm sure there are lots of other places to DEBATE these things!

[Retired_for_now]

No horse too dead to beat (and that puts the ASPCA in play too).

[Keds_Girl_Lala]

DC I appreciate that very much and it make an appropriate place and time for me to say some things I have wanted to say now for some days. It shows very much in-sight.

Firstly, my absence to some degree it has been because I am at work between Friday and Sunday, so some time I can not reply or take the time I require to word things more properly. And I have been ill also and do not feel like the added stress. I spend the Sunday time with my sister and daughter and do not become involve in something that is emotional for me.

So, now it is today....

I was disappointed not when my initial thread it was close, although I had ask for that initially. Not to prevent people from saying thing directly, but to prevent thing from becoming an arguement to a greater increment. My disappointment then it is when I have some thing to say in my defence and for explanation, but I find my own thread with much discussion and speculation about me, it is close and I can not defend my point and issue. So I feel the people (only one or two actually) that I am in disagreement with, it end on their note and not on my note or some even ground.

So I mistakenly ask a friend to submit some nice sites I find that I had not the energy to share myself. And that gesture it turn then also into a huge discussion much of it center around me. I had though oh ok I can reply here, but then, this discussion about my self and interpreting my thinking and feeling, it is close and I have no say so for my own expression.

So I want now to reply here.

When I ask or want the thread to be a certain way, it is not to keep people from saying some thing they belive in. And I have no quarrel with people that they may disagree or have their own feeling or issue. However, things they became un pleasant and I ask for people to just be polite or to let things go. That is when mostly one person, a Brigand, they say disgusting, violent thing that I find offensive on several ways. And their lack of remorse and apology it is a sign of hostility and I view such as an affront since I want people to just be more respectful. I will remember this affront. Perhaps if such person they have such strong feeling and they want to express it, they start their own thread? My only explaination is that perhaps we do not know each other and our mannerism of thought? I am new but they are more new here.

So now I have my name associated with two poor discussion and I can not fix that. I feel greatly embarass becuase of things that happen over this course.

I do not want to make this go on. I am also disappointed now I see people (again perhaps they do not no me) they ask for things to go but before I can make some explanation on my own behalf. I do not think this is fair and I will remember their remarks as hostile.


I do not come from Kazakhstan I come from Ukraine (it is a joke :-))

I do not want more people to make things WORSE than it has become because it just make me more embarass and humilate me further when things go on with out even my participation in my own defense or explanation or to try to ameliorate the situation.

I will close to say only my initial post it was made not so much for my own interest (Michael Jackson he is not well known to me personally) But when I was born, he was for the time, the first black American entertainer to be popular in the Soviet Union/Ukraine. It was a huge thing and my mother (who is decease now) she would watch his videos and things when they could. So she tell me when it was decide for her and my sister to come here first. That we would all come to USA and to California and that in some way we would have the opportunities to be a star in our own way. To be actress or model or athlete or performer. That the influence of the US it was positive and that singers and performers from the USA they are very popular at home. I am not naive and I do not pretend to say oh well he is a star and he is above reproach. No. But I find it also hypocritical if the President Obama he make note of Michael Jackson's passing and the US Congress they stand for silence that is some how okay but I make some respectful comment and it is attack as supporting some one who was legally found innocent of a crime. I find that very hypocritical and confusing.

I know this is very long and perhaps it is not so clear and it is dis jointed. FOr which I apologize greatly.

Thank you for this opportunity not to be close yet

Oksana "Lala" K.

[THE DC]

I respect and appreciate the differences shred about this topic and posted my concerns fully expecting others not to agree. A do not wish to silence anyone who disagrees nor do I wish to dispute anyone’s right to have a differing opinion.

Rick; Please do not perceived my comments as a direct attack directed toward you as much as a concern in how we operate in the future. Being a moderator is a difficult job of which I do not envy, nor would I presume to have the temperament to do your job as well as you do.

My concern is that avoidance of conflict often leads to unspoken resentment that in turn generates greater conflict. Recent experiences in more ‘zealotous’ forums may have left me a bit sensitive to these directions, I admit. But as much as discussions may spiral downward, there is opportunity for people to be uplifted by overcoming differences.

My relayed concerns were not toward your decision as much as the environment of avoidance that pressured your decision. I like you and enjoy you regularly represented talents. We just differed on your choice here. My respects to you and your most celebrity memorable avatar!

As for the encouragement of other posters for dismissing the event, I recognize the attracytion. I respect and encourage the voice of disagreement, but in turn I respect those voices by restating my difference. I do not wish to silence anyone who disagrees with me.

If we are to restrict ourselves to paper building content only [my normal preference] then these issues are minimized. If we permit other postings of differing thread content, then I suggest we have to learn to not read what we do not want to experience, or even be so bold as to allow ourselves to be challenged by the differences and in the ways those differences are worked out.

I am also aware that we need to not only be culturally sensitive but culturally active. That requires respect for each other and sometimes expressing those differences in vigorous debate. I grow concerned when I note the effort toward closing discussion on grounds of avoiding an issue of treating someone differently in the vein of politically righteousness.

To all, my respects and appreciation, and to those who continue to disagree with my concerns, thanks you for the respect of stating your differences without rancor or concern for the fragility of my emotional fortitude.

There is an old statement attributed to Cicero; silence is consensus.

I felt that if I truly respect this forum, as I do, I could not consent to the silencing of others, even in a debate I had little investment in. I just value the participation of my peers too greatly.

The DC