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  #21  
Old 11-21-2016, 07:13 PM
cfuruti cfuruti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcold View Post
cfuruti: while you're correct that locked PDF can not be imported by Inkscape, you can still convert them to unlocked if you know the password for viewing, and import afterwards.
Sorry, I probably misunderstood. I'd like to import a locked PDF knowing only the viewing password, therefore without changing the PDF in any way. Can Inkscape manage that? 0.47, 0.48 and 0.91 all immediately fail to load, say, a Paper-replika file - without even prompting for the password. Other than a missing friendly "why" message, I guess that's the expected behavior - if the author locked the file, he/she rightfully doesn't want modified versions around, PDF or otherwise
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  #22  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:49 AM
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No, you're right - without converting to unlocked PDF Inkscape won't read it. However, nothing really prevents you converting it to unlocked PDF first, using some external tool. Funny you mention Paper-replika - exactly the case I had issues with: I wanted to do some pattern modifications, so I had to "unlock" a PDF first before I could touch it with Inkscape. So it's not really that much protection, if you know how to work around it.
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  #23  
Old 11-22-2016, 04:34 AM
cfuruti cfuruti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcold View Post
So it's not really that much protection, if you know how to work around it.
I don't . I wanted to replace some surface detail in one of J.Perdana's models*. It's not simply a matter of reprinting and greebling, because some of the real-world parts are neither flat nor actually flush with the base surface - edges are raised like "__\------/__" or "__T----T__", therefore a replacement would leave some of the original surface visible under the edges, detracting from the effect. Besides, some replacements would be made in flexible material, making difficult to exactly cover the original. I guessed Julius's files are vector-based, so the original feature could be easily removed, but I couldn't even load and try. Alternatives:
  • slightlly oversize the greebles. No
  • bother him asking for a "clean" version. No way.
  • do a screen capture or something similar, and redo the base part the raster way and losing some resolution. I could try that
  • paint over the base surface. No, my paintbrush ability is restricted to edges and flat colors
*I'm doing something similar in my WiP, but it's raster-based, so it's the hard way, with GIMP's stamp and clone tools, plus GMIC.
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  #24  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:37 AM
Dabeer Dabeer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfuruti View Post
This kind of generalization is misleading and does not contribute to the OP's discussion.
I'll give it to you that it doesn't contribute to the OP's discussion (but here we go anyway), but misleading? I stated my own personal opinion about models generated by Pepakura, and although there is room for clarification on why I don't like Pepakura models in general, I stand by that opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfuruti View Post
They seem less blocky than most, but they raise my second major complaint about Pepakura - lines are never clean, single-pixel traces, even when perfectly vertical or horizontal. It's like Pepakura renders to a set resolution, and then scales to the designer's desired resolution, all while using a bad anti-aliasing algorithm.

Your points about why Pepakura has become popular are valid, I'm just personally not a fan of the results.

Back to PDFs... It is absolutely true that Inkscape cannot reproduce the SVG with 100% fidelity. I'm thinking primarily of Uhu02's fabulous models here... when I tried to redesign part of the X-Wing (wing hinge, to allow them to open wider), it really destroyed the model. That being said, I'd still rather models be released as PDF, primarily for the printing benefits. Again - just my personal opinion.
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  #25  
Old 11-22-2016, 08:30 AM
cfuruti cfuruti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabeer View Post
... but misleading?
Sorry, without further clarification, IMHO yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabeer View Post
They seem less blocky than most, but they raise my second major complaint about Pepakura - lines are never clean, single-pixel traces, even when perfectly vertical or horizontal. It's like Pepakura renders to a set resolution, and then scales to the designer's desired resolution, all while using a bad anti-aliasing algorithm.
Do you mean face edges weren't rendered as 1px-wide lines? Perhaps so, but read on. My experience with tweaking Pepakura models (making mechas poseable) involved
  1. generating PDF using a virtual printer
  2. (re)engineering parts in Inkscape
I took care to set PV to render lines as vectors (I don't remember the setting's name and can't run PV right now, IIRC it's something about drawing lines "clean" or "sharp"), and they were rightfully exported to PDF and loaded into SVG as vectors - constant thickness, no antialiasing issues. My only gripe was, folded edges turned into lots of short lines, instead of single dashed lines - I hate overthick, conspicuous dashed edges, so replacing them with thin continuous lines was rather boring - one can hex-hack PDOs and change folded edge rendering, but I forgot the details (IIRC imcold deserves the credit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabeer View Post
Back to PDFs... It is absolutely true that Inkscape cannot reproduce the SVG with 100% fidelity. I'm thinking primarily of Uhu02's fabulous models here... it really destroyed the model.
What a pity. Inkscape is making very slow but steady progress. I still remember lots of artifacts and glacial rendering when 0.47/0.48 loaded complicated SVGs generated by my software. It got much better with 0.91.
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  #26  
Old 11-22-2016, 08:37 AM
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Kugelfang Kugelfang is offline
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I was not expecting this amount of conversation on this topic. Thank you, it's been quite informative.

In summary, I think what I'm hearing is that PDF is far and above more prevalent for 'builders'. For people who like to modify, though, SVG is the preferred format. Ones intended audience should determine the final format. At this time neither format will cover all the bases. I'm leaning towards distributing a zip file which contains both the PDF version as well as SVG versions of each page. I think that would cover most everyone. File sizes may lead me towards separate downloads but I'll have to play around to see.

There were a couple of comments about the quality of SVG drawings. SVG can be extremely precise. If there are inaccuracies in SVG drawings, well, that is the fault of the creator of the drawing, or (less likely) incomplete support of SVG by the software rendering it to the screen or printer.

I suspect there's another level of designer using more CAD type software (and different formats) but they're probably not modifying the work of others so much as generating their own designs.

As for locked PDF files, I look at it much as I look at copyright and intellectual property issues. The creator is making a statement that he or she does not want someone to alter the work. Now, the end user may have the right to make derivative works, but that doesn't mean the original creator has to assist in doing that by giving access to the internals of the document.

As for Pepakura's format: Not even an option for me. I don't see any reason at all to go that route. I don't use Pepakura and I don't see that the format gives any advantage over PDF or SVG.

I also have a slight bias against Adobe which trickles down to PDF (though I suspect PDF is not strictly an Adobe format). In the early, early days of SVG, an Adobe Internet Explorer plug-in was the only practical way to display SVG for most users. Once Adobe acquired MacroMedia (who owned Flash) they pulled their support for SVG because it was seen as a competitor to Flash. In my opinion, they were trying to kill an open standard in order to force people to use their proprietary formats. They certainly set SVG adoption back by years. Now of course, Flash is a mostly dead technology. I've seen these types for conflicts for years now (anybody remember trying to create web pages during the 'browser wars'?) and that's why I've become such a strong a proponent for open source solutions. But this is getting really off-topic....

--jeff
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  #27  
Old 11-22-2016, 02:54 PM
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imcold imcold is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfuruti View Post
... render lines as vectors (...), and they were rightfully exported to PDF and loaded into SVG as vectors - constant thickness, no antialiasing issues. My only gripe was, folded edges turned into lots of short lines, instead of single dashed lines - I hate overthick, conspicuous dashed edges, so replacing them with thin continuous lines was rather boring
Try exporting with pdotools? Foldline is really a line, not a dozen or so short separate lines. Plus they go to a separate layer, so editing is easy, if you lock other layers.
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  #28  
Old 11-22-2016, 04:51 PM
cfuruti cfuruti is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcold View Post
Try exporting with pdotools? Foldline is really a line, not a dozen or so short separate lines. Plus they go to a separate layer, so editing is easy, if you lock other layers.
It's some time since I last built a PDO, but should I do one today, I certainly would try your tools first. BTW I forgot a second rendering nuisance (either from PV or the virtual printer I used, can't know which): the background raster was a matrix of small tiles, about a dozen in each dimension.

Kugelfang, sorry for sorta hijacking your thread with PDO issues, but see, we do take technical questions seriously!
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  #29  
Old 11-22-2016, 04:59 PM
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cbg cbg is offline
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three things:

this discussion is interesting. . .
1. i wish the U.S. adopted the metric system years ago (i have a vested interest in both systems, but i prefer base 10).

2. i have had success in twisting/converting pdf files into illustrator/vector formats. also photoshop can open and 'save as' eps/vector files of pdfs.

3. i must claim ignorance of .svg files at this point, but am becoming educated thanks to this forum.
best,
cbg
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  #30  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:15 PM
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John Bowden John Bowden is offline
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics

Maybe this will help explain SVG
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