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Old 08-20-2011, 02:52 PM
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Syringes and Hypo Applicators

I've been considering how to build "cleaner" models and know that folks on the forum use a syringe. I searched and found that Ron40 uses a Microjet 412, some folks use over-the-counter syringes, some purchased at hobby stores, etc. Seems like a lot of choices and a bit daunting. Obviously I could go out and just purchase one and have at it.

I ordered some GS-Mark Hypo Cement because I had a gift card and was curious about it, so this takes care of my needle applied fluids itch. However, I was curious about the procedure and specs of syringes, and if those of you who use them could share.

Specifically, I would like to know the gauge and length of the needle you use, capacity of the reservoir, type of syringe (luer lock, etc.). Other more subjective characteristics, cleanup time and ease of application. Furthemore, the glue you use with the syringe and whether or not you dilute it (and with what you dilute it) at all.

My current method is apply a bead of PVA onto some paper and use a toothpick as a spreader. Now don't get me wrong, it works well enough, but sometimes I get the fuzzies or my fingers get in the way and dirty things up, not to mention ink run, etc. It just... annoys me. So I'd rather work more precisely to avoid the mess even if it takes longer.

In essence, I want to achieve this level of neatness.


Beyond PVA, I'm also assuming that a super glue gel formulation would be superior as I've seen models built with it that have very clean lines and seams.
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:45 PM
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Grimpirate, I started using syringes and needles that are used to inject into I.V. tubing not skin, they have a blunt tip and are a little bigger thus flow glue better. The one downside i find is they get clogged easy so i don't put much glue in them and wash them out with hot water often. I use Elmers Carpenters Wood glue its yellow and dries yellow so its inportant to not make a mess, but it works sooooo good its worth it to me. fast dry and strong.......Rich
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:47 PM
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ty for the reply richkat, may I inquire as to what is the color of the base of the needle you're using? According to the following color chart it's simple enough to determine the gauge based on color:

16g - Gray
18g - Green
20g - Pink
22g - Blue
24g - Yellow

As according to the wikipedia article on intravenous therapy those are the range of sizes commonly used.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:03 PM
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The ones I have are green. but I would like to try the next size up....Rich
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:03 PM
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I use A syringe that most hobby shops cary. Cost is around $1.00 and it comes with two different needle sizes (yellow and pink) I use the yellow for most glues. When you fill the syringe set with the needle up for 10 minutes or long enough for the air bubble to get to the top. Then force all of the air out other wise the glue will come out in spearts and is uncontrolable. This tip came from another member (please speakup and take credit) place the syringe tip down in water otherwise the glue will dry out and you will forever be cleaning the tip.
As for using the syringe it is the only tool I use to apply glue. A filled syringe will last through most of a complex build.

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Old 08-24-2011, 05:37 PM
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Grim, I use a 14g piercing needle for applying glue instead of a toothpick, it's quite a handy little tool for lifting and setting edges.
Don't use a syringe because I'm just too clumsy, already stabbed myself this month watering my air layerings.

Curious thought about the model you show, it's quite difficult to tell whether that is a real paper model or a render of a paper model as there are no photos of parts before fitting, he also has a render of a leg on his mini gundam page which has obviously been pasted onto his 'photo' background. I'm not saying it IS fake ( I'd say it was real) but it is something to watch out for in the future, as real models start to look more rendered and renders become more real, even the errors in modeling can be faked in a render.
I leave you with my beautifully modeled demon. (it's a render btw)
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:49 PM
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Agreed codex, it's getting difficult to tell a render apart from the real thing. However, the google translation of his page seems to indicate he did in fact construct the model. Seems kind of pointless to lie to the interwebz at large. I've seen various other gundam models built to such a degree of efficacy. Another of the reasons they look so good is because of the use of colored cardstock as opposed to printing the colors onto white cardstock. Just check out this guy:

Gudang Papercraft Ardi: Super Gundam Papercraft
Papmod | Papercraft | Paper Model | Card Model

Gundams lend themselves to looking good on paper (bit of a pun there) because of the straight planar surfaces and simply curved surfaces. Moreso, I just meant to highlight the tight, closed, and neat seams. I'm sure being able to use a ruler to make the cuts as opposed to freehanding a curve plays a critical step in that. When I design a model it looks great (at least in my humble opinion), but when I build it, I'm always a bit disappointed with my skills. Obviously I allow for the fact that the real version will never look quite like the designed version. I just know I can make my real version better and want to try. Just not always sure how, I'd love to watch a YouTube video of one of these pro guys cutting/building just to get an idea of what they do or don't do.

Nice render btw, what software?
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Old 08-25-2011, 05:27 PM
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Completely agree that the guy actually made the model, you can tell when you zoom in alot as you can see the card thickness on some parts, have no idea how he doesn't get any dirt on the model, must seal it. It's the renders he photoshopped onto a background that make you question it more, easy to see he did that because of the black line around the leg, photoshop is quite bad at pasting things with an alpha channel, and you don't get that effect naturally.
It might be pointless to lie, but people do the stupidest things just for attention and adulation of others, i'm betting one day we'll see an uber leet paper modeler

Thing about the digital version of a model is that it has no real dimension, personally I think the paper versions are always better than the 3D models, no matter how masterfully or badly built. If you were to make the 3D model with the correct scale, paper scale and seam tolerances in order to fake a real model, it wouldn't look as nice as a dimensionless 3D model, though it would probably be neater to build.

If you find a sure fire cure for getting dirt on the model, let me know, for some reason i'm magnetically attracted to dirt which does get on alot of my models, it's the main reason I don't improve my own building skills, there's not much point in making a perfect model if it isn't clean.

That's just 3dsmax, you can get it for free for 3 years by applying for a student license, student meaning a student of the software, not the lentil eating hippy kind.
Great for doing instructions with if you like modeling and rendering.
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:36 AM
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I received my pack of syringes and needles a couple of days ago but had been so busy I hadn't been given the chance to test them. In case you're curious as to the exact equipment I ordered them from smallparts.com. They have a supply of lots of small hardware and lab-like equipment at cheap prices, typically they sell large amounts though. In my case it was 10 syringes and 25 syringe needles. I'll list the part numbers here:

SYR-001CC-10
NE-152PL-25

You can find syringes and syringe needles under the Lab Utensils subcategory of the Lab & Scientific products main category, or just type "syringe" in the search box. The total cost was a bit over $16.00. These are 1cc syringe, so very small, and 15 gauge blunt tip needles. It was a bit messy starting off and trying to figure out how to get the glue neatly into the syringe and such, but the application was fairly straightforward.

Sadly, for myself, this gauge opening is too large for my tastes. It produces a bead that scaled up, I would compare to be the equivalent of silicon caulking. However, it does produce EXTREMELY neat results as compared to spreading with a toothpick. To test it I basically glued two card edges at 90 degrees from one another and applied glue to only one side of the formed corner. I did it three different times to establish what degree of control was necessary. Despite trying to squeeze slowly, too much glue would flow (I use Elmer's Glue-All), perhaps this could be improved by leaving the glue exposed to air a while in order to acquire a bit more tack. Elmer's glue from what I've seen tends to be more fluid and less viscous, probably why it's cheaper.

Regarding the technique in order to make a smaller bead I basically have to increase the travel speed of the needle tip. I'm not much for the amalgam and speed of precision. I tend to be much better at precision if I can focus and work slowly as opposed to swift and steady motions (never been that good at caulking either). I stumble on an interesting discovery in that if I laid the stream of glue down and then ran the needle tip over the stream (without adding more glue) it would spread the glue away from the corner seam and leave a more reasonable amount of glue at the weld. Of course, this simply shifts the glue to the outside so it's still somewhat unsightly, but this could be concealed within the model.

Lastly, I find it would probably be better to squeeze some glue out into a receptacle and then suck the glue into the syringe, as opposed to trying to fill the syringe from the back and then insert the plunger. Obviously this is what syringes are designed to do, I just tried it backwards first to see if I would have better results and not produce any glue waste, but I made a mess anyhow. Cleanup was really easy. I just filled the syringe with water and pressed down hard on the plunger and it pretty much cleaned itself. I did this immediately after the tests to avoid the glue setting inside the syringe.

My conclusion is that 15 gauge is not the gauge you want to be working with. I think I'm going to see if I can find a 19 gauge or 18 gauge syringe needle somewhere locally, as that seems like it would produce a much better result and be easier to work with; despite a tedious cleanup.
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:18 PM
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The way i fill mine is to remove the pluger pour glue in (fill about falf way) then put the plunger just in enough to stay in and stand the whole thing up on end (needle up) and let it set about 10 min. the bubbles work to the top, then push the plunger on in while holding the needle in a paper towel to catch any glue that pushes out........Rich
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