World of Micromodels

[thorst]

Dear michik,

there are two mistakes in your pamphlet. The first one is that you impute me selfrighteousness, while you are the one who should think about that, taking into account your tone.

The second one is that you limit piracy to what you want it should be. Just because something is legal, it is not right. And being morally right is the justification for the raised voice against some of the "pirates". But not the ones in the rows of those who happen to be our "friends". Or those who pirate photos or drawings what we accept out of convenience. Or those who trade with wares of doubtful legal status, as it is when you sell reprints of kits where you did not track down the rightful copyright holder. Accepting those while haunting down others, this is selfrighteous.

It's funny that you impute me selfrighteousness, only because I indicate the obvious.

Thorsten

Originally Posted by michik

Ohh, brilliant, Thorst..
originally I intended to start a harsh rant 'bout selfrighteousness - I just couldn't do it, laughing.



You know: The bad thing about piracy - one might say the whole point - is NOT that something changes the owner, or, in the more modern case, an intelectual property is copied, BUT that it happens without the permission of the lawful owner. Or, in other terms, because it is ILLEGAL. it is not piracy - not that hard to understand, eh?

And while there are things in Diderick's assessment that would well be worth being discussed, it seems that you are contetnt with being inconsistent and insulting people (thinking about it, pretty much all ) - well, go on then, make my day!

[Foute Man]

So, to cut a long story short: the website is offline and no one (including me) ever bothered to make a copy of the site on the wayback machine......
Hopefully mr Den Bakker is able to convince the site owner to continue his website one way or another (and hopefully someone makes a copy on the wayback machine)

regarding the copyright discussion.... i think this is a very interesting discussion, but it should be continued in a seperate thread in another section of the forum. i'm actually hoping someone with a more than basic knowledge of international copyright laws could shine a light on this matter

[michik]

Nice words, Thorsten, very agreeable if a bit on the general side.
So would you please clarify
in the particular context of the gone World of Micromodels web page

- who exactly of those "friends" is trading with
- which particular "wares of doubtful legal status" ,and is selling
- which reprints of kits exactly, which he did not track down the rightful copyright owner?

Because, for all I know,

- I simply asked for the wherabouts of a certain webpage
- the next moment it was publicly assumed - without the merest hint of an evidence - that it was shut down due to copyright infringement, and
- yet another moment later airy insinuations of piracy and whatnot are flying around.

And in that combination this all is just an inch away from blatantly accusing Bas of being a criminal - still without any evidence!

And that, in turn, is neither nice nor morally right nor legal.

Michi

Originally Posted by thorst

Dear michik,

there are two mistakes in your pamphlet. The first one is that you impute me selfrighteousness, while you are the one who should think about that, taking into account your tone.

The second one is that you limit piracy to what you want it should be. Just because something is legal, it is not right. And being morally right is the justification for the raised voice against some of the "pirates". But not the ones in the rows of those who happen to be our "friends". Or those who pirate photos or drawings what we accept out of convenience. Or those who trade with wares of doubtful legal status, as it is when you sell reprints of kits where you did not track down the rightful copyright holder. Accepting those while haunting down others, this is selfrighteous.

It's funny that you impute me selfrighteousness, only because I indicate the obvious.

Thorsten

[thorst]

Originally Posted by michik

Nice words, Thorsten, very agreeable if a bit on the general side.

Good to know that we are on the same side.

Originally Posted by michik

So would you please clarify
in the particular context of the gone World of Micromodels web page
[...]

If you read my first post, the one you commented on, you see that I cited a sentence by Diderick, nothing more. And I commented on this sentence, because quite frankly, when I read such words here at PM, where people go behind certain pirates, mostly from far east, I can't believe my eyes. This and that noone else seems to oppose such opinions I find a scandal for this forum, and I don't understand how the same people agreeing with the said sentence can go after any other pirate anymore.

That's my whole point. I'm sorry if it was posted in a thread where I don't have a clue who's right or wrong regarding the initial question, but if statements are made here which I can't agree with, it's the right place to comment. Because the question is important.

[airdave]

World of Micromodels is gone.
Why? Don't know.
Does that answer your question?

This a Forum...Forums generally illicit responses that may contain facts and/or fantasy.
They are also great places for supposition and biased opinion.
(I'm admitting that i can be as biased as the next guy.)
Thats something you have to get used to.

The Micromodel issue (re: ownership, copyrights, etc) has been discussed before.
Thats why I suggested you do some Forum research before assuming the basis of thought behind my comments.

I suggested that the site might have been shut down due to an ownership/copyright issue.
This was partly a joke...a jab at the micromodels argument.
It was also a personal opinion...the possiblity that this was another copyright argument.

The comment was also a jab at another related topic that it is completely lost on you
and something that I am not going to explain to you at this time...
so I apologize to you, for your lack of understanding in that respect.

I'm not going to speak for Thorsten but I happen to know, that he (like me)
is a little fed up with the tolerated acts of piracy.
Crying "pirates are bad", "chinese sellers are bad", but then committing your own acts of piracy and property appropriation is commonplace it seems.

This covers a lot more things than this Micromodels website issue.
Obviously comments that Diderick posted touched on those issues.

The fact that Diderick stated publicly "yes, the Micromodel name and material can be used freely by anyone. "
without being a Copyrights Lawyer
or directly involved with this particular case
is the biggest piece of misinformation in this thread.

Even if its true...its definitely not Diderick's place to proclaim this.

To answer the original question and put this issue to rest...
Diderick states, according to Bas...the website "is just stopped".
Okay?
End of discussion then.

[Diderick A. den Bakker]

Airdave: I did not proclaim anything, I stated my considered opinion, based on research I did into this particular matter of MM copyrights. But by all means, let's wait until someone comes and proves me wrong (emphasis on PROOF). Subject closed for me.

[airdave]

Originally Posted by Diderick A. den Bakker

So yes, the Micromodel name and material can be used freely by anyone.

This is not an "opinion"...this is a to-the-point statement. A proclamation.

Adding that you're waiting for someone to "prove you wrong" just adds to the fact that your comment was a statement.

"Emphasis on PROOF"...so your "opinion" is good enough...but we need undeniable "proof" to argue?
LOL Give me a break.

[Diderick A. den Bakker]

Argueing is OK - but I will not change my opinion (which is in fact a conclusion, based on my research, and on studying the actual text of the British law on copyright) without being offered valid arguments, i.e. proof.
Do not expect any more from me on this subject.

[Diderick A. den Bakker]

Good news!
Just received good news from Bas Poolen of the former Micromodels site. We discussed the problem during the annual modeling meeting in Soesterberg in October, where I tried to stimulate him as much as possible - successfully, I am glad to say. He is now rebuilding his site under a new name: worldofmicromodels.nl
This will take time: every page has to be redesigned and rewritten. Please have a look - and some positive messages via his contact page would probably motivate him further.

[Kevin WS]

Roderick - thank you for the link. Appreciated.