Canon - Spirit of St. Louis

[akremedy]

Originally Posted by boosed

I don't want to get too far off the Spirit of St. Louis topic, but this thread is producing some very interesting and useful information beyond the evaluation of various SoSL paper models.

Mike: Do you use Red River papers for your own GreMir models? I know that Dan has used RR paper in the past and cannot put my hand on his messages regarding those papers. (1) If you use RR paper (other than the metallics), what do you use for 1/33 models and do you use a different weight/type for 1/48 models. (2) Is there a US Internet source for 0.5mm close-grained white card suitable for 1/48 formers and the like? DrBill has suggested taking a micrometer to the local art supply store and checking out their archival card. I tried this and could find no 0.5mm or 1mm stock.

Don

Don, there has been quite a lot of discussion of Red River silver metallic paper on the Google Papermodels II list. Bob Penikas (not sure if he participates on this forum) provided the following back in Jan '07:

Here is the info off the Red River box:
Item # 1300 060105
Red River Paper 1-888-248-8774 Toll Free
50 Sheets 8.5 X 11
Metallic Silver . 006"
I paid thirty-three dollars ($33.00) if I remember correctly this included
shipping.

John Freeman (again, not sure if he participates here), provided some invaluable tips based on his experience - I think this is from Dec '07:

Red River Paper http://www.redrivercatalog.com/browse/cat=4&prod=30.htm
makes the only paper I know of with a good silver finish that can be printed
on with an ink jet printer. Well folks, I promised a little tutorial on
using this silver paper, so here it is. On the latest model I tried all
sorts of things, some of them more crazy than others.


The first thing to do after printing your model, after giving a bit of time
for the ink to dry thoroughly (which doesn't take long with this paper!) is
to spray it with a protective spray. The matrix for the metallic silver on
this paper is apparently water soluble, which is why it accepts ink jet
printing. This can cause problems in the build, so it needs protection.
Decide if your article is going to look polished, or like everyday aluminum.
For the polished look I spray it with Krylon clear gloss. (I suspect another
acrylic lacquer will also work, but I have not tried any others.) If the
model will have an everyday aluminum finish, spray with Testors Dull Coat.
The difference is amazing, and very realistic.

This paper is a lot thinner than the card we usually work with, and this
creates problems all by itself. To solve this, get out your spray can of
good old 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. Laminate your model sheet with a sheet
of ordinary copy paper. It will end up almost the exact thickness of our
usual card stock. I do it this way--lay your model sheet on the table face
down. Spray the sheet of ordinary paper with the adhesive (don't get any
glue overspray where you don't want it--this stuff is fierce!), then right
away carefully place it on your model sheet. Note--you will only get one
shot at this! When it is down it will not be coming up again, so do it
carefully. Spray a fairly heavy and complete coat of glue--you don't want
any delaminations. After putting the two sheets together, work over the
surface with vigor--a brayer roller works well, but the heel of you hand
will work well also. Roll or rub until you are sure every tiny bit of the
page has had pressure applied.

You can now assemble you model in a fairly ordinary manner. I recommend that
if the model uses overlapping glue tabs you cut off the glue tabs and make
your own glue strip to put behind the silver. You will get a better looking
joint. The glue tabs will be on your silver paper, and glue doesn't stick to
it worth a hoot. One of the advantages of having laminated the silver paper
with regular paper is that our good old white glue behaves as we are used
to. The "paper" part of the silver paper is not ordinary paper, and glue
doesn't work as well on it. For a small tutorial on making your own glue
strips, see Papermodel Tutorials at http://2oldkiters.smugmug.com/

Unfortunately this stuff won't let you shape it into a little bit of a
compound curve like our regular card stock will. As you know, with card we
can use a bit of moisture to soften it a bit and some shaping can be done.
Not with this stuff.

If you have spots where the fit is something less than perfect I fill the
gap with "Bond 527 Multi Purpose Cement." I run a little bead down the joint
and wipe it with a finger. You can also build up small fillets with this
stuff. It dries quite quickly and is perfectly clear. It will leave a shiny
trail on the model, but if you are doing the Dull Coat routine, the next
spray will eliminate the shiny spot. The same goes for any excess glue you
get in the wrong place--wipe it off with a finger. It won't show after your
final spray of Dull Coat, or clear gloss. If the gap you are filling is
sizable you may want to use a small brush to paint it with metallic silver
acrylic paint. It will hide quite nicely in the end.

If you must glue something to the silver surface, contact cement is the very
best option. It really does stick. There are, of course places where it
won't work, such as a spot where the part has to be slid into place. I have
read that you can find a contact cement that dries clear, but I haven't
found any yet. Everything I have found is the usual ugly yellow color. If
you do get some where it shows, after it is dry it can usually be rubbed off
carefully--either with a finger or even the end of a wooden toothpick.

I have tried many glues on this paper. Weldbond, Aleene's Jewel-It, Super RC
Z 56, Crafter's Pick The Ultimate, and a few others. None of them works very
well, if at all. The best I have found is the Bond 527 Multi-Purpose Cement
that I mentioned earlier. It sticks, but don't stress the joint or it will
come loose.

When the model is finished, give it another coat or two of the clear
finish--either the dull or shiny. It does wonders hiding glue smears and
slight color variations in your patch work. By the way, you can change from
dull to shiny or shiny to dull at the end with final coats. It works, though
perhaps not quite as well as sticking with one choice through the process. I
have tried giving the printed sheet a first protective coat of gloss and
then shooting the model with Dull Coat. It works, but not as well as if you
start out with the Dull Coat.

You can get really nice results using this paper, but it does require more
care than our usual stuff. Check our site shown below for pictures of
several planes I have done using it--the PT22, Northrop Gamma, Locheed
Electra and a little bit on the Avro Type F. If you have any questions that
you want me to try to answer, jump right in with a reply to this. I would
also welcome any suggestions you have from your experience. I know that Bob
Penikas has done some good work with it--how about others?
I look forward to seeing pictures on the list of your models using it!


I am just finishing up another plane using the Red River silver paper. I
have discovered a couple more hints about its use that I will pass along.

When printed on this stuff, colors come out quite soft--quite translucent
and nowhere near as strong as when printed on regular paper. I found it is
quite easy to intensify the color by choosing a Sharpie Permanent Marker of
the same color and just "coloring inside the lines." I know, it sounds
tough to do, but it really isn't. Things like panel lines and rivets will
still show through.
You can paint on this paper. On this model I painted the black no-glare
panel on the nose. I used a lower-tack masking tape--the blue stuff--and
rubbed it down carefully where the paint would be on it. I used my usual
water based acrylic craft paint. This stuff has a tenuous hold on the silver
paper, so before removing the masking tape, go around it carefully and
gently with your knife blade. The object is to cut through just the paint to
separate the tape from the paint. If you don't do this the tape will peel
off the paint next to it.

Hope that helps,
Adam

[Don Boose]

Thanks for all these answers -- my apologies for confusing you with airbob, Dan. It's all useful info, for which I am grateful.

Don

[dansls1]

Originally Posted by Leif Ohlsson

As for laminating in small scales, I, too, am thinking along the lines of layers of ordinary paper (or photo paper). I've tried out 300g & 200g photo paper with (to me) satisfactory result.

Leif

I don't even limit it to small scales or small parts. The beaufort, hal mustang and corsair have all had all formers done with layered cardstock.

[ringmaster]

The front section of the Spirit wasn't burnished with a sander. The aluminum sheet was "engine turned" a leather disk charged with abrasive is mounted in a drill press and individual circular marks are formed on the metal, it is a slow process which produces spectral reflections similar to a linticular grating.Very impressive in bright sunlight. Some of the effect was lost when the cawling was punched full of louvers in Mexico.
Has anyone seen the 1:50 schreiber-bogen model from Germany ?

[shrike]

These days you use a Scotchbrite disc and it goes pretty quick. The original purpose on aluminium, at least, was to hide bad metal working, but it is pretty<g>

I've had some luck in the past on models using aluminium foil and a pencil eraser to make the swirls

On steel it provides a lot of tiny grooves to hold oil and prevent rust

[birder]

Cool Shrike, I think they did that to the c3 stearman, but I haven't gone to see it up close yet, I was wondering if the Gremir Spirit model could be masked and painted, the real one with no rivet lines or anything to cover up? Might have to score the wing where the wooden spars touch the fabric, but do you guys think feasable?

[ringmaster]

Try this with a scotch brite pad
http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~eamonn/et/et.htm

[DrBill]

Don, et al: I've tried a couple of different silver papers, but the problem is that they're not "scale" shiny -- same issue as with a lot of silver and aluminum paints for RR and p****** models. What I'd love is some paper that has the Halinski metallic treatment. But, of course, that's the ink they use and not the paper.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried spraying a thin metallic paint coat on cardstock and then running it through an inkjet printer (AFTER it's dried...)? Maybe with a matte overcoat. It might be worth a shot, though I have a hunch that the ink won't sit well on a painted surface.

As to .5mm stock for formers, I had good luck at the art supply house I used while living in Connecticut. Art board or mounting board is available in many different thicknesses these days, but unless you have a good framing shop or art supply dealer nearby, it can be hard to find. Our store had loads of scrap from framing jobs that they'd give away or sell at cents on the dollar. Not to mention the stock sheets. You might try one of the many web-based art supply houses. But to be honest, I like the in-person bricks and mortar stores so I can inspect the stuff before I buy it.

Two things to watch out for: (1) Delamination -- some thick card stock is heavily laminated and works very well if you don't bend it, but starts to come apart with even minor shaping. (2) Some of this stuff is very hard, and takes multiple strokes with a very sharp cutting tool to get through it. I've found that this leads to cutting errors and dull blades.

I didn't realize it until I heard stories from those sawing up trees after wildfires in the San Francisco area hills, but wood is full of silicates (great abrasives). Some of these guys said that they had to resharpen their chainsaw blades after only one or two eucalyptus trees. This stuff gets converted into paper, and the denser the material, the more silicates you run your knife through, and the faster you dull it. Art board is about as dense as it gets.

[CharlieC]

Originally Posted by DrBill

I didn't realize it until I heard stories from those sawing up trees after wildfires in the San Francisco area hills, but wood is full of silicates (great abrasives). Some of these guys said that they had to resharpen their chainsaw blades after only one or two eucalyptus trees. This stuff gets converted into paper, and the denser the material, the more silicates you run your knife through, and the faster you dull it. Art board is about as dense as it gets.

It's probably the set on the chainsaw blades - Eucalyptus wood is much harder than most of the woods you get in the US so it needs a different sharpening profile on the chainsaw. You probably haven't got the really hard eucalyptus species in the US like Tallowwood.

A lot of art boards are also loaded with pigments like Titanium dioxide - these fine particles are really tough on knives. Oddly black boards are loaded with carbon black and cut quite easily.

Regards,

Charlie

[rickstef]

Originally Posted by CharlieC

Oddly black boards are loaded with carbon black and cut quite easily.

Regards,

Charlie

Graphite is used as a lubricant too in a lot of mechanical application

Rick