PaperModelers.com

Go Back   PaperModelers.com > Card Models > Found it on the internet

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-01-2020, 07:33 PM
CharlieC's Avatar
CharlieC CharlieC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,225
Total Downloaded: 16.12 MB
The Schneider CD tractor was used in a very specific way. Each battery of 4 heavy guns (155mm GPF or 145mm St-Chamond) in the RALTs (Regiment Artillerie a Tracteur) was towed on roads by Latil TAR or Renault EG trucks. Along with the battery was a Knox heavy truck with a Schneider CD on a trailer. Once a roadhead was reached the CD was dismounted and towed the guns across country to a new battery position. The CD also was used to bring up ammunition. The CDs were an organic part of the RALT organisation along with the trucks. A RALT battery could relocate, often many kms, in a single night, much to the annoyance of the Germans.

The de Bange guns (120 and 155mm) were often towed by trucks but relied on horse transport if they had to be moved off road. The old guns were not expected to be able to be moved around quickly and most often occupied static positions. I should point out that towing a de Bange gun required a towing frame with a pair of wheels. Wayne, or myself for that matter, weren't able to find a drawing or decent images of the towing frame so it didn't get modeled.

So, I'm not saying Schneider CDs never towed de Bange guns but it would seem unlikely. The CDs certainly towed GPF guns and there's a model of that gun on Landships II.


Regards,


Charlie
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-01-2020, 07:46 PM
CharlieC's Avatar
CharlieC CharlieC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,225
Total Downloaded: 16.12 MB
I meant to point out that the "ceinture de roues" (plates on the wheels) served a very particular purpose and increased the rate of fire of the de Bange guns. Without the plates the gun would quite often twist around when it ran up the recoil ramps after firing and required realigning when it got back into battery. Levering a 5.7 ton gun around with crowbars was never going to be quick. It was found with the ceinture de roues fitted the gun would roll up the recoil ramps and not move sideways and then return to the same position it started from.


Charlie
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-01-2020, 08:02 PM
CharlieC's Avatar
CharlieC CharlieC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,225
Total Downloaded: 16.12 MB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butelczynski View Post
Old gun or not,it was still put to good use in Finland but wear,age and bulk of it limited its use.Good read about them here FINNISH ARMY 1918 - 1945: ARTILLERY PART 2

The barrel on the gun in that image was from one of the original batches made in the 1880s. You can tell because the lifting eye on the barrel is aligned along the barrel. The more common version in WW2 was from the batch of barrels made in 1916 - this had the lifting eye across the barrel.


Regards,


Charlie
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-01-2020, 10:11 PM
Wyvern's Avatar
Wyvern Wyvern is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Centreville, VA, USA
Posts: 5,134
Total Downloaded: 499.03 MB
Great to have another weapon from The Great War available. Love Wayne’s designs.

Wyvern
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-02-2020, 11:27 PM
John Wagenseil John Wagenseil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Eastern end of the Mid West US.
Posts: 3,682
Total Downloaded: 4.62 GB
Charlie
Thanks for the information you posted with the information about the organization of the RALT units, except that I now have a craving for a Knox truck and a Latil or Renault tractor.
Once you told me what not to look for I found a photo of a 155 de Bange towed by a Holt tractor

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/De_Bange_155_mm_cannon
Reply With Quote
Google Adsense
  #16  
Old 12-03-2020, 12:27 AM
CharlieC's Avatar
CharlieC CharlieC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,225
Total Downloaded: 16.12 MB
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wagenseil View Post
Charlie
Thanks for the information you posted with the information about the organization of the RALT units, except that I now have a craving for a Knox truck and a Latil or Renault tractor.
Once you told me what not to look for I found a photo of a 155 de Bange towed by a Holt tractor

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/De_Bange_155_mm_cannon
There is a 1:25 Model of the Latil TAR but no cardmodel of the Renault EG. There was another type of truck used - the Chatillon-Panhard. All of these trucks were 4 wheel drive so could traverse bad roads and to a limited extent open country. There are resin models of the Knox truck and La Buire trailer but none in card afaik.

The image of the de Bange gun in the Vosges in 1915 towed by Holt 75 tractor is an interesting one. You can see the transport frame on the gun. The Holt 75 was nearly identical to the Holt 15-ton tractor used by the US Army. Again nothing in card but I think there are resin models of the Holt 75. The Vosges front was fairly static for most of the war since it was too difficult to supply large numbers of troops. The lack of mobility and slow firing rates of the de Bange guns wasn't a major issue on this front.


The linked article talks about de Bange guns being sent to Russia and even built under licence. No mention of this in Shirokorad's "Encyclopedia of Russian Artillery". I think the authors got confused with the similar Russian 152mm 120 Pood gun. Both the de Bange and Russian 120 Pood guns were sent to the Spanish Civil War just to add to the confusion.


I've added another artillery tow with Holt 75 - this is British towing a 9.2inch howitzer.


Regards,

Charlie
Attached Thumbnails
New WW1 Artillery Model-holt_75_towing_9inch_howitzer.jpg  

Last edited by CharlieC; 12-03-2020 at 12:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-03-2020, 08:17 AM
Don Boose's Avatar
Don Boose Don Boose is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania
Posts: 20,702
Total Downloaded: 424.90 MB
Thanks for all this fascinating background information, Charlie and John.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-03-2020, 03:24 PM
CharlieC's Avatar
CharlieC CharlieC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,225
Total Downloaded: 16.12 MB
For the person who just has to have everything a model subject can offer might I suggest a Canon de 105mm TR Mle 1897 sur affut Mle 1877 de Bange with Delamare-Maze elastic wheels towed by a Latil TAR (attached).

The 100mm gun was a long range coastal defence gun introduced around 1900. At the start of WW1 48 of these guns were mounted on de Bange carriages to provide long range counter-battery fire. These guns were deployed in 1915. In 1916 the barrels were worn and it was decided to bore them out to 105mm and try to improve the towing speeds by using elastic wheels. The wheels weren't a success and the barrels wore quickly so all the guns were withdrawn in 1917.

Regards,

Charlie


Glossary: TR - tir rapide (quick firing) : "sur affut" (missing circumflex on the "u') - on carriage : Mle - modele (model)
Attached Thumbnails
New WW1 Artillery Model-canon_de_100_tr_mle_1897_11.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-04-2020, 06:13 PM
CharlieC's Avatar
CharlieC CharlieC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 2,225
Total Downloaded: 16.12 MB
Wayne has just sent an updated version of the de Bange cardmodel which is on Landships II - it corrects some small fit issues.


There are also updated .stl files of the de Bange gun if you're into that sort of thing.



Regards,


Charlie
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-06-2020, 10:12 PM
John Wagenseil John Wagenseil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Eastern end of the Mid West US.
Posts: 3,682
Total Downloaded: 4.62 GB
Latil Tar

At the bottom of web page is collection of thumbnail photos of Latil Tar trucks. One image shows a 155 deBange being towed, with best view of the "avant train" that I have seen so far
TRACTEUR LATIL TAR.
A bulletin with some information about WWI era artillery, in French, with side view of the "avant train"
https://www.armeemuseum.ch/wp-conten...SAM-f-1-18.pdf
A tourist brochure of Fort du Mont with photo ov deBange 155 hauled by horses
Fort du Mont
Drawings of horse drawn caissons used in the 1880's
-Le 43e RAC, 1914-1918 - René Verney un médecin normand dans la grande guerre (43e RAC, 74e et 24e RI)
Text, many photos, and side view plans of 155 deBange in tow
Canon de 155 long De Bange modèle 1877 Grande Guerre
Another picture
http://www.loutan.net/olivier/wp-con...M-1881-01d.png
Reply With Quote
Google Adsense
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Parts of this site powered by vBulletin Mods & Addons from DragonByte Technologies Ltd. (Details)
Copyright © 2007-2023, PaperModelers.com