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  #21  
Old 01-19-2010, 12:53 PM
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cgutzmer cgutzmer is offline
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I have not read the rules yet and prolly wont for a bit -i have way too many threads to wade through.... plus I am at work

I am tempted to leave missiles out completely, to me in a spacefaring world they really seem rather backwards and cumbersome. maybe replace them with mines or something as those could be quite strategic. I dunno. In ground based warfare I can see it but not really for deep space.

I skipped over everything and went to the command quality since it was mentioned. I dont want to mix dice for the levels. Too me its too complex for something that should be so simple. I ilke the levels idea. I think a d10 should be rolled for each command quality level. this will mean higher command quality will likely go first but ti wouldnt be uncommon for a level 1 to roll a 10 and a level 2 to have a couple crappy rolls. Of course ship statistics will also play a factor in the roll.
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  #22  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:07 PM
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Chris, just a sideword on missiles, a little arithmetics would reveal that on cosmic scale, (AI) gunners will be hopelessly training their guns in vain at tens of thousandths of a degree just to hit anywhere near the enemy on the other side (not impossible, given that they might already be able to achieve that sort of aim), and they would be littering the entire space with trillions of mines before one cruiser actually hits one (unless one mine exploding near earth can send the moon flying) :D So it seems to me that guns and mines are actually the ones being given a holy buff in this game, though I love huge guns, I hate to admit that realistically guided weapons would be a much more practical option... The choice is yours, I wish to lose neither, but I still thinks all the possibilities should be considered in some expansion packs.
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  #23  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:12 PM
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Chris:

It was you that told me that we could have all the dice we wanted. And that we could make paper dice if it was needed.

On the other side, if you add 1D10 per level of CQ the media of rolls will be like this:

CQ1 - 6
CQ2 - 11
CQ3 - 17
CQ4 - 22
CQ5 - 27
CQ6 - 33
CQ7 - 38

The difference is so great that a player with a Admiral with CQ2 would almost never win initiative against a player with CQ4. And also, the rule that permits the player to raise ships Agility would be destroyed.

With the rules I made, the media of rolls would be:

CQ1 - 3
CQ2 - 4
CQ3 - 5
CQ4 - 6
CQ5 - 7
CQ6 - 9
CQ7 - 11

Much more balanced, right?

But if you don't want several different dice, and tell me why, we can change it to:

CQ1 - 0 points - 1D6-2
CQ2 10 Points 1D6
CQ3 20 Points 1D6+2
CQ4 50 Points - 1D6+4
CQ5 120 Points 2D6
CQ6 160 Points 3D6-2
CQ7 220 Points 3D6

But it is more clumsy and less balanced.
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  #24  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:23 PM
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About missiles, mines and weapons.
I think all in, nothing out.

During the '60s, there was a fever of missile planes (f4 phantom was one of it), and AA missiles changed the way air warfare was fought, but now we see that all the interceptor have a mini gun in their configuration. Israel demanded that his fighter would have a cannon and the French build for them a special Mirage III with a canon. During the next conflict (if I'm not wrong, I'm writing this by memory) almost 30% of the enemy planes were shot down using guns.

So who are we to say that in the future something like this won't happen in space? Imagine ECM so potent that could jam efficiently warheads. Maybe space conflict would slow down and be close enough that guns would light the sky with lead and fire.

I really don't know what you don't like in the missiles rules. But I can explain.

Cannon fire is fast. 60cm is the maximum distance of the far ranged weapons. Must roll to hit.
Missiles in theory don't have maximum distance. Missiles will always hit unless they are destroyed by point defense. The farther away you send the missile against your target, more chances have the enemy to blow it out of the sky.
Same line of rules, two distinct flavors. What do you find wrong in it? Did you test played it?
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  #25  
Old 01-19-2010, 01:56 PM
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cgutzmer cgutzmer is offline
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my point on the dice is that initiative should be easy, more complex rolls elsewhere are fine (and should be determined by info on the card)

If you want balance then why not a d10 then add one for each level of command quality? then it would be
CQ1 - 6
CQ2 - 7
CQ3 - 8
CQ4 - 9
CQ5 - 10
CQ6 - 11
CQ7 - 12

*edit*
I prefer all in - missiles are good with this further discussion
Just because I say we can use lots of differnt dice in the whole game does not mean I want to use lots of different dice in one roll type in the game.
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  #26  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgutzmer View Post
my point on the dice is that initiative should be easy, more complex rolls elsewhere are fine (and should be determined by info on the card)

If you want balance then why not a d10 then add one for each level of command quality? then it would be
CQ1 - 6
CQ2 - 7
CQ3 - 8
CQ4 - 9
CQ5 - 10
CQ6 - 11
CQ7 - 12
The reason is the Agility rule. A CQ1 would only have a maximum of 4 points to distribute to his ships Agility, think of it as a rookie commander that doesn't know all the innuendos of a space battle or of a particular ship. A CQ4 captain would have a maximum of 10 points to distribute between the agility of his ships. But still there is 27% of chances that in a given turn the CQ1 will win the initiative. That's the reason for me to write the rule as I've done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgutzmer View Post
*edit*
I prefer all in - missiles are good with this further discussion
Just because I say we can use lots of different dice in the whole game does not mean I want to use lots of different dice in one roll type in the game.
Why? That's exactly the reason to have variable dice. Is to be able to give variable chances to same type of rolls. That's why a short sword will make 1D6 of damage and a Long sword will make 1D8 and not 1D6+2. (1D6+2 will always make a minimum of 3 damage points and that's incoherent, for a long sword has the potential to make as few damage as a short sword).
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  #27  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:21 PM
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cgutzmer cgutzmer is offline
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OH! wait a second here - when you say command quality do you mean as in me being the commander or as in the pilot of the specific unit? Reading this I think you mean overall commander as in the player... I dont think we have come to agreement yet on how movement will be carried out. I have not been able to get to that thread yet. I still have not read the rules and prolly wont til I am sitting in front of the tv tonight after the kids are in bed.

I need to read all the threads as they stand before I respond to any more messages to make sure I understand all discussions thus far.
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  #28  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
(...) a short sword will make 1D6 of damage and a Long sword will make 1D8 and not 1D6+2. (1D6+2 will always make a minimum of 3 damage points and that's incoherent, for a long sword has the potential to make as few damage as a short sword)
If you take 2D6-1 the results range from 1 to 11. I know that the result is flawed statistically as numbers close to the middle are more and more probable to roll up, with maximum at 6 which is six times more probable than 1 or 11, but we can take this effect into consideration.

Even D8 can be simulated by two D6 - when one of D6 simulates D3 (1,2=1;3,4=2;4,5=3) D6+D3-1 (this is much more precise as 3,4,5,6 are equally probable, 2,7 less and 1,8 three times less probable than middle range)

What I mean, we don't need other dices than D6 in this game. In RPG I'd be all for different dices, but here it is overkill.
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  #29  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:49 PM
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cgutzmer cgutzmer is offline
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I dont agree having different dice is fun! I just dont want to use differnt dice for the same type of roll.
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  #30  
Old 01-19-2010, 02:54 PM
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lehcyfer lehcyfer is offline
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Chris, what Blackronin came up with is a game in which both players move and shoot simultaneously in the same turn. The CQ and initiative roll at the beginning of the turn allow player with higher CQ move after the player with lower CQ, which is a tactical advantage. Additionally both players can use the number they rolled on initiative test to give their ships additional agility points which allow for additional fine-tuning of gametable tactic.

This is quite a difference for me as I grow up immersed in games in which players moved, shooted etc. in their separate turns, so it's quite a leap for me - I have to wrap my head around this and playtest the hell out of it, but as I see it this rules have capacity to turn the game into really fast flowing, very involving experience.

As I see it this need a lot of tweaking, but is potentially a dynamite.

(Hint: Don't throw it away without really checking this out :D )
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