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  #71  
Old 01-18-2011, 12:14 PM
mgolovanov mgolovanov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leif Ohlsson View Post
How curious if this discussion has led us to finding a fault in the reference drawing...
Leif,

this is what I said above - even if the authors of the drawings seek to ensure that the drawings are accurate, and declare that their drawings are indeed accurate, they do not always have the opportunity to realize this aspiration - often just because it takes time and effort beyond the fees

photos rule

returning to the Schcherbakov's "pods" - sources claim that underwing cars were introduced with dual purpose: to transport wounded and to land troops and cargo. It is quite possible that the picture under scrutiny is just that landing version, and hatches are for discharge (the safest way to leave the car in the air). Sources say nothing about combat use of the landing version, while the ambulance version was used widely

obviously in the landing version, hatches meet up at the bottom - no sense to have two narrow openings instead if single wide
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  #72  
Old 01-19-2011, 08:19 AM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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The shooting down, and emergency landings of a Po-2 in original colour photos

Here is a very dramatic sequence involving a Po-2. We are in Ukraine, in the general area of Ratta. The time is Summer 1941, the invasion summer. German soldiers on motorbikes with sidecars are everywhere. We even catch a glimpse of the bonnet emblem of the staff photographer's car. He is using colour film, which must have been quite exclusive at the time:

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-1-169-0111.jpg

What we see is a shot-down Po-2 attempting an emergency landing. As the pilot flares out, he notices German soldiers everywhere, tries to climb again, but stalls only to crash and burn:

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-2-169-0115.jpg

This is the first of a sequence of colour photos obtained from the German Bundesarchiv. Further directions on how to find these particular photos at the end of the post.

The dramatic sequence continues with the photographer rushing towards the burning aircraft, smoke still emanating from it, but the fire largely having abated. The first photo is blurred by the motion and excitement of the photographer, rushing towards the scene:

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-3-169-0113.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-4-169-0114.jpg

The second photo is steadier. Note the fairly unique colour scheme of the fin, and the absence of wheel covers on this Po-2.

In the same sequence, but later, several German soldiers and officers investigate the downed Po-2.

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-5-169-0112.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-6-169-0407.jpg

In the background of the first photo we also see an armoured half-track.

Source-critical discussion of these photos

The Bundesarchiv has grouped the five first photos as one event taking place in Ukraine, Summer 1941, and only the last one as belonging to the event in 1942, Dnjepr area. This is clearly illogical, since the Ukraine 1941 event allegedly involves the crashing and burning of a single aircraft, and then the investigation of this, the same, aircraft.

Therefore I have rearranged the order of the photos and grouped them as all belonging to an event in Ukraine 1941.

The reason for this is that the last photo probably is shot by a different photographer. In the last photo, it may have captured the photographer of the five previous ones. It is quite possible that this single frame has been incorrectly dated and located by that photographer.

At least all of the four last photos, in my opinion, depict the same aircraft and event (note distinct camouflage, absence of wheel covers, and depressed left aileron in both of the two last photos). I can only surmise that the first two photos also show this aircraft, and depict the same event. It is at least probable.

Leif

Source: Bundesarchiv.

Search order:
Topicsearch / Sachklassifikation / E (Zweiter Weltkrieg 1939-1945) / Ed (Truppen- und Formationsgeschicthe) / Ed500 (Luftwaffe) / Ed580 (Ausländische Flugzeuge) /Ed588 (Sowjetische Flugzeuge).

Select:
Photos 169-0111 up to and including 169-0115, plus 169-0407.

I have tried to improve the colour balance of the original photos, which had faded with age. I will also write to the Bundesarchiv about the ordering and dating of the photos.

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 01-19-2011 at 09:18 AM.
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  #73  
Old 01-19-2011, 09:42 AM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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Further remarks

I ran out of time editing the previous post. Originally, I was mislead by the Bundesarchiv classifying these photos as depicting two events, and wrote a post based on that premise, while still critically analyzing the ordering of the photos and events.

My initial hypothesis based on this was that the two first photos depicted an emergency landing and the seemingly fatal crash & burn of a Po-2 in Ukraine, Summer 1941.

The second event, then, would have been the inspection of a smouldering Po-2 bounty aircraft in the Tschitomir-Dnjepr area, Spring 1942. All according to the caption of the last photo, which was the only one with that 1942 date and Dnjepr location.

But the aircraft in the last photo clearly is the same as the one in the three previous photos (note distinct camouflage, absence of wheel covers, and similar inclination of left aileron in photos allegedly belonging to events dated almost a year apart).

Therefore, I thought, the four last photos belonged together, depicting the Spring 1942 Dnjepr area event. And the first two, therefore, were the only ones depicting the Summer 1941 Ukraine event.

Having published the photos here in the forum it became very easy to view them in sequence. I then found that the landscape in at least photos 2-4, possibly even 5, was the same (note the distinct row of small trees, and the colour of the vegetation):

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchiv-trees-2.jpg Tree-line in photo 2
Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchiv-trees-4.jpg Tree-line in photo 4
Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchiv-trees-5.jpg Tree-line in photo 5

It then follows 1) that what we have here is one, single event, and 2) that the aircraft seemingly burning to cinders in fact did not burn that much; what we see in the close-up photos is the smouldering of a not-so-serious fire. It also follows 3) that the last photo must be included in the same event (since it is the same aircraft), and that the dating of that single photo most likely is wrong.

A possible cause for this misdating is that the last photo probably is taken by a different photographer, who likely misdated his photo after the event (there can't have been that many occassions to look at developed photos on the Eastern Front), or perhaps someone else has done the dating by mistakenly grouping this photo with some others from the Dnjepr area in the archive of that particular unknown photographer.

It might be the case even, that we, in the last photo, can see the photograpfer of the first five photos! This is of cours an hypothesis, but an intriguing one. Have a look and see if you can spot the officer with a camera, standing at an angle consistent with taking the previous photo:

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-6-169-0407.jpg Did you find him? Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-7-169-0407-photographer.jpg
Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-bundesarchive-5-169-0112.jpg Did he in fact take this photo?

Another hypothesis is that the Po-2 in the photographs did not crash and burn, but simply landed, after engine failure, lack of fuel, or pilot being seriously wounded. The pilot then may have tried to set fire to his aircraft by hastily opening a fuel line or oil line, letting it run out on the ground. The resulting fire might have produced a lot of flames and smoke, but perhaps it didn't harm the aircraft as much as one would have thought seeing the fire from afar. There might not have been that much fuel left. Or, perhaps what he burned was maps, etc.?

I wonder what happened to that pilot. Or perhaps we need not wonder.

History comes alive in a special way in anonymous colour slides, don't you think?

Leif

Apologies for some sentences remaining muddled in the previous post. Hope this clarifies my speculations a bit.

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 01-19-2011 at 10:15 AM.
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  #74  
Old 01-24-2011, 05:43 AM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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A kitbash winter camo version of the Po-2 in 1/16 scale

I am finished with adapting the winter camo version of Bestpapermodel's Po-2 model, on to the parts of the Kartonowe Kolekcja Po-2 model. The result is a version with the richness of detail and sound structural design of the KK version, and the quality and beauty of Robert Navratil's artwork on the BPM version.

Here are two big before-and-after images of the fin, just to give you an impression of the difference:



Done in 1/16 scale the new winter camo version amounts to 12 A4 sheets of details, plus 10 L3 sheets of larger parts (L3 being my designation for Letter size width and A3 size length of paper):

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-contactsheet-a4parts.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-contactsheet-l3parts.jpg

The work is done completely in Photoshop, using the fairly rudimentary techniques I have mastered, cutting up parts in smaller pieces and joining them in different layers; using the eraser on the top layer edges before flattening; using the clone-stamp tool on the flattened result to further even out any discrepancies; stroking part outlines where necessary.

I've started to master one new tool as a result of this exercise, namely the warp tool, which is just fantastic for squeezing one set of parts on to another not quite like them. Two examples:

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-fuse-1-kk.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-fuse-1-bmp.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-fuse-1-overlay.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-fuse-1-new.jpg

The row above shows the main fuselage part of the KK kit, the corresponding part in the BMP kit, and overlay of the two, and the finished result, a new BMP winter camo squeezed onto the KK part. This was fairly easy, done with cutting and pasting and resizing portions of the BMP part with ordinary tools. Here's a more difficult example:

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-nose-kk.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-nose-bmp.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-nose-overlay.jpg Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-nose-new.jpg

This is the nose section. The BMP part here is quite different in both shape and method of design. It took some extensive warping and going over the result with the clone stamp to get an acceptable result.

I am pleased with having finished the job. The value of it would be to demonstrate that this kind of thing is possible for someone who has learned graphic tools by doing, while not yet having reached any degree of advanced level.

As for the engine, I have isolated the parts in the SCHE-2 Modelik model, but I'm still not satisfied. I aim to redraw them in Illustrator to get a more beautiful metal shine, but that will be a later task. For the time being the KK original engine parts will have to suffice.

At least the new version is complete, and completely buildable.

Leif
Attached Thumbnails
Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-fin-kk.jpg   Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-fin-winter.jpg  
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  #75  
Old 01-24-2011, 05:59 AM
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cgutzmer cgutzmer is offline
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Thats some pretty amazing work! Its great to see what can be done Its quite the transformation!
Chris
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  #76  
Old 01-24-2011, 06:40 AM
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Don Boose Don Boose is offline
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This seems like magic to me.

I look forward to seeing your 1/16 scale model of this famous old aircraft.

Don
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  #77  
Old 01-24-2011, 08:43 AM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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Thanks Chris, Don, for watching over me. Yes, Don, I'd very much like to see this built as well. But I've done some serious thinking of what I'm up to, actually.

It seems I'm a tinkerer much more than a builder, although I enjoy the little building I do very much as well. To boot, I have little perseverance. This is not a good trait, and that's why I'm actually very well pleased with having brought some bright idea to some sort of completion.

Now, it seems I've got numerous started projects lying around, just-not-quite finished. Just the other day I got reminded about the Avia BH-5. And there are others. I think it would be a good exercise for me to try to bring a few more of these started-but-not-finished projects to the same kind of completion.

What's the use of this kind of work? Here's what I'm thinking. If you, Don, or Chris, came to me and said: "Hey, I've got this fabulous new card model from Poland I bought, and another one equally fabulous I downloaded. I know you have them, too, and that you like to tinker with these things. Would you like to try to combine them for me? I'd like to build a model like that."

And let's say I did that for you. Would that in any way infringe on the copyrights of either party? I can't imagine how. It would be a gift and a sharing among friends, both having bought the respective models as originals.

So, what would you say if I offered to share the winter model of the KK/BPM Po-2 with anyone of established standing on the site stating their wish to build the model, communicating to me proof of also having purchased both models? Not as a general upload, only by private communication, and on those terms.

I'd like to do that very much. Would it be alright, you think?

Leif
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  #78  
Old 01-25-2011, 07:04 PM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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Bundesarchiv changed their captions!

Can we go back in time a few posts, to the Bundesarchiv colour slides of the crashing Po-2? I noted in passing that I would write to the Bundesarchiv, and the answer just arrived very swiftly indeed. They have in fact changed the caption of the series. Here's the email:

Quote:
Dear Mr Ohlsson,

many thanks for your mail, your analysis and your interest in pictures of the Federal Archives.

Unfortunately, due to small staff resources, the large number of images and in some cases the complete missing of original captions, mistakes can't be completely excluded.

Sometimes the original texts and datings which are included completely at the images are incorrect too. Because of this we are also grateful for every note.

We added a new "archive title" to the photos Bild 169-0111 OR Bild 169-0112 OR Bild 169-0113 OR Bild 169-0114 OR Bild 169-0115 OR Bild 169-0407 ("Sowjetunion, Ukraine.- Abschuss / Absturz / Notlandung eines russisches Ausbildungs- und leichten Bombenflugzeugs Polikarpow Po-2, deutsche Soldaten bei Untersuchung").

I also think it's a serie, but we can't be sure, why the russian plane crashed down and that the photograpfer of the first five photos can be seen on "Bild 169-0407".

Many thanks again,
Best regards,
i.A.

Dr. Oliver Sander
The new title of the series would translate into something close to: "Soviet Union, Ukraine - The shooting down of / crashing / emergency landing of a Russian trainer / light bomber Polikarpov Po-2; German soldiers are seen examining it."

Which seems eminently correct and proper; this is what can be said with some certainty. Very nice to get such a friendly and clearly interested response.

Leif

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 01-25-2011 at 07:42 PM.
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  #79  
Old 01-25-2011, 09:33 PM
EricGoedkoop EricGoedkoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leif Ohlsson View Post
Thanks Chris, Don, for watching over me. Yes, Don, I'd very much like to see this built as well. But I've done some serious thinking of what I'm up to, actually.

It seems I'm a tinkerer much more than a builder, although I enjoy the little building I do very much as well. To boot, I have little perseverance. This is not a good trait, and that's why I'm actually very well pleased with having brought some bright idea to some sort of completion.

I think you're too hard on yourself, Leif. At the risk of sounding downright silly, these things turn out to be a LOT of work. You'll recall, I'm sure, the last project I discussed with you, some six months ago now. I'm still working on it and almost near the end: nearly 350 parts on 9 pages and 8 pages of assembly diagrams at this point, with a few important bits left to do. I really had no idea when I started . . . .

I'm not going to tell you that you should build the Po-2, but if you do there's nothing wrong with doing it in fits and starts over the next year or more. I got into a bad habit of throwing away stalled projects after they had sat in the closet for a few months. I wish I hadn't - it seems like it'd be kinda nice to take a break from the thing I've been working on for so long and be able to finish up something else. Might clear the head.
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  #80  
Old 01-26-2011, 02:41 AM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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Thanks Eric, you're a friend, aren't you! I'm so glad your own work has advanced to the stage you described. I'll work a bit more on the Shvetsov M11 five cylinder engine and we'll see.

Polikarpov Po-2 Kartonowa Kolekcia 1:33-shvetsov-m-11-dwg.jpg

It now strikes me that I haven't actually seen a build of an engine with a full set of flanges. I know of many kits and designs which include it, and I have seen a number of white-build promotional photos, so I know the pro's can do it. But has anyone mortal, someone we know, actually done it?

Leif
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