Josef the Robot (Machinarium)

[alexdarth]

Omg im reading my replies, soo sorry for all of the mistakes, next time ill write more slowly. And i fear that we are spamming on the wrong thread, maybe we should talk elsewhere? Meanwhile i've looked around like you said, i have a basic picture of this site now :D The bad thing is that i don't get notificiations of someone replying, i got an email the 1st time you did, but nothing on the 2nd.

[Rubenandres77]

Hello Again Alex.

You touch some topics that are worth of discussing. It is always good to refresh those topics.

And even though there are other spaces where this this discussion can take place, and this conversation has wildly gone off-topic, since I'm the original poster, I guess we can continue here. No problem with that.

First, we must keep in mind that DeviantArt has their own rules and politics regarding fanart. And this forum is not deviantArt. And none of them are legal agencies that enforce copyright.

Deviantart has had to make several deep changes to their definitions of "fanart" to protect the rights of the original owners of intellectual rights, but also to ensure artistic freedom.

In the paper model world things are equally hard, as there are several actors.

There are companies that design and sell printed kits.
There are designers who sell digital kits on on-line stores.
There are fans who like to create kits just for fun.
There are modelers from all around the world who love to build. There are those who love to watch.
And there are also the occasional pirate who likes to take a kit from here or there, and upload it without permission to other sites.
There are companies that allow kits of their products to be made. There are others that don't.

And we all must deal with respecting other people's freedom, rights, and ways of thinking while trying not to kill us in the process.


As you go through this forum you will find that the paper community (at least here in this forum) has certain established practices that are quite helpful for everybody in the hobby. Some like them, some not. Some may sound idealistic, some not.

In any case, and to avoid trouble, is better to play on the safe side.

But in general, here's a summary of the common practices or thoughts:

* Asking the author of a kit for permission to modify it is a good idea.
But some people modify the kits for personal joy, just because they like to add details or improve appearance. As long as it remains as a personal project, no-one will challenge that. And what is more: sometimes the modifications the builder does are a source of inspiration to others to improve.

* Asking the author of a kit for permission to share it publicly and distribute it is definitely a good idea.
Some designers like to have their kits freely distributed all around the net. But some other designers prefer that their kits remain available and unmodified in their own website. The reasons may be varied, but if a person wishes to have their kits available only from one certain place, it is better to respect their wishes.

* If the creator of a game/character/franchise/etc. asks the designer of a "fan-kit" to be deleted, it is better to comply.
It doesn't happen often. But it has happened. So, even though the kits were freely available before, once the owner of the character/game/franchise/etc. decides that it should no longer go, that kit falls immediately into the prohibited zone. And that's what quite probably happened to the Josef kit.
Some people may later build the kits from when they got them before. But sharing it, or making it available again by other means is considered impolite.


* Crediting the author is not only a way of showing respect to the designer's work, but also a way to avoid trouble.
Let's say you modify a kit by X designer, but erase any reference to him. And then redistribute it... To someone who is not informed, it may look like that you were the original creator of the kit, but you aren't. And if the original designer finds out, and wishes to sue you for stealing his intellectual property, there you have trouble. That's why if you are thinking on re-distributing the files (with your modifications) it is better to ask for permission from the author himself.


* Some people think paper models fall in the realm of "fanart". In the case of some designers it may be true. Some people just create "fankits" the same way many people draw "fanart", and most of the time there is no problem with that.
Just have a look at the nice Rocinante fan-kit designed and released by one member of this forum: Rocinante Released
Is great.
But if SyFy channel decides it violates their copyright and ask for it to be pulled, then it will have to go. But maybe they will never care. As for the designer, since it was a "fanart product" and it was not intended to profit from it, he may not have any problem.


* But some other designers (and companies) get the rights to certain brands, design and sell paper models, just the same as Revell, Tamiya, Bandai and other companies do to sell/distribute plastic kits. In that case it is not "fanart" but a product itself. Even if it is not a physical kit, but a digital one, it is still the product of a company.

Names, designations, etc. may also fall into that. I remember the case of some guy who designed and sold a very big kit of an "X-Wing" from Star Wars. He sold the templates by a certain amount of dollars. And sold the kit and promoted it as an "X-Wing". But he didn't have the permission from LucasFilms or Disney to do so. So he got a letter from them because he didn't have the rights to use the "X-Wing" name. So now he sells the exactly same kit under the name "Stafighter-X" and had to add the line "inspired by the X-Wing from Star Wars" to avoid trouble.
Of course you can find X-wing paper models with much more detail and for free in other places.


The above are just some thoughts that are common among this community. Some people may have different views, but in general you will see that.

And there may be other practices or behaviors that I forgot to mention.

Remember that this forum is not a government agency, so there is really no immediate legal threat if you decide to do anything. And I don't think there is really a set of rules that prohibit or allow certain practices in this forum. Common sense is always advised.

But some (most) members of this forum tend to have a very concerned view on the above matters. Anything concerning authorship, intellectual property, or re-distribution is always a delicate issue. Specially among moderators. And if you happen to fall into a practice that may be considered "wrong", they may reprimand you in private or in public according to the fault.

Again, as you go through the forum you will get familiar with all those issues, and will begin to see how useful those practices are.

You are always welcome to participate, to ask questions (on any matter, any doubt you have), and keep debating our answers. That is very good for the forum, as that leads to very good conversations.

Kind regards,


(and by the way: do not take my words as a final statement of what happens in this forum. I speak for myself, But I 'm not the owner or moderator of this forum. I just speak what I've seen, and my view may be limited and incomplete)

[alexdarth]

Thank you very much for the detailed answer. Its good to have a picture of the forum's general point of view. the chances of me having something worth of uploading are very low but if i ever decide to upload something i've made/modified ill be sure to credit the original author, its not like it costs anything to include his name :P Obviously i dont intend to claim to have made something that i didn't nor to sell someone else's work. Also i dont support giving away for free that someone else sells, especially if it is a "small" artist where the damage is big. I know that wasn't what you meant, im just clarifying my "ethics". The only part where we dont completely agree is the josef model, which i explained why i dont think its bad, but i dont mind avoiding these stuff for the sake of the forum. Anyway it was the only model i really wanted and i couldn't get, not even buy. You can find almost anything papercraft-related for free on the internet which impresses me, i've only found very few paper models which weren't free while there are hundreds, highly-detailed and professional models completely free! I think you dont see this on other types of art so much. It wouldn't be a problem to pay some money for this one model that i really wanted, its worse to not even exist :P I know you may not like it but im glad i got it, but apart from that, it wont be a problem, obviously i wont ask again for models i shouldn't have, nor ill need to anyways. I know you are just a member but i want to have a good relationship with the community and also you were my introduction here, even if it started badly :P Also the members make the community. I'm glad a found an active community about papercrafts, which i didn't even know i wanted :P So thanks again for spending your time introducing me here :D

[Rubenandres77]

Alex, is nice to have this conversation with you, and seeing that you indeed are interested in the hobby. I feel I must apologize for my harshness in the first comment to you. There maybe things that we don't agree upon. But as long as the dialog continues, that's great.

Originally Posted by alexdarth

...
the chances of me having something worth of uploading are very low
...

Contributions to the forum come in many ways.
You don't need to be a designer to help this hobby to grow, and you don't need to have kits to upload, because:

You can comment on other people's builds.
You can ask questions.
You can help others if you know any tricks.
You can upload photos of your builds for others to see.
You can suggest ideas of kits to the designers so that they feel motivated to create more kits.
You can suggest ideas to the moderators in the suggestions section.
You can even comment on the non-modelling related threads that are there to keep threads active.

All those are always worthy contributions to the forum.

So you see... you surely have something worthy to give to the others.

Regards,

[airdave]

I was going to comment earlier but Ruben was doing such a fine job...
so I thought it best to keep my mouth shut.
And AlexDarths responses where more positive and inline with community standards (I thought).

But then I noticed a similar set of comments that I keep hearing from those that just don't get it.
The comments that constantly annoy and frustrate me with regards to unauthorized model sharing.

The same attitude that is repeated from everyone who still thinks sharing other people's work is okay "under certain conditions".

NO.
Stop talking about "for sale" and "free".
This makes ABSOLUTELY no difference in whether you should be copying, sharing, resharing, selling.
Just because a model is freely shared with the public does not permit resharing by someone else.

The idea of putting up for download on another website...or sharing copies from another source
is not acceptable unless the Designer/Author/Publisher has specifically authorized it.

Just because a model is old, out of date, out of print, hard to find, no longer distributed...
still does not give anyone permission to copy, share or sell the model.
Its not yours to do what you want with.

Yes, sharing a model file with a close friend or relative is okay with me.
(As long as its not a retail/for-sale model)

Helping out a close friend ...who you know has the best intentions...
but is having trouble navigating a difficult website or sorting through a complicated download...is okay with me.

But how big does this "close friend" group get to be?
It seems the "close friend" group gets larger and larger everytime I hear the argument.

And, as Ruben brought up, there is the issue of where and how a Designer wants to distribute their models.
Designer's are artists, and as such, many of them are concerned with how their work is presented.
Many Designer's are are also concerned with monetary returns.
And how their model files are distributed may have a big impact on that.

For example, Uhu wants his model files distributed only from his own website.
I don't know what the personal or financial reasons for this are, but it is his right and his expectation.
If you share his models outside of his site, you are disrespecting him and ignoring his rights and wishes.

I want my "free" models shared from my own website...because I want to control the visual presentation of my models
and I want people to visit my website, where they might decide to follow one of the commercial links.
Then they might buy a retail model, or a t-shirt, or end up at ecardmodels and buy from another designer.
If you copy and share my files elsewhere, you are not only infringing on my rights,
but you are diverting traffic and blocking potential sales of commercial items.
You are stealing money from me or one of my friends..

And if someone has a website that relies on Ad revenue, traffic, and click earnings,
and you share their free models elsewhere, you are diverting traffic away from their site
and therefore costing them money.
Once again...you are stealing potential earnings from them.

......
The biggest problem is most of you already understand all this.
It just comes down to whether you want something bad enough.
And whether you want to pay for it.

And this is usually when all the "legitimate" reasons for sharing come out.
This is when you look for ways to argue the copyrights and ownership.
This is where you find ways to expand the gray areas and justify the theft.


...........
I just needed to vent a couple of things...not specifically aimed at any one person.
Thoughts for all.
Soapbox put away...

[elliott]

Well-said Dave, well-said.
This has turned into a really great thread, one that I enjoy reading. Alex, Ruben, Dave - well-down all!!

[alexdarth]

I understand what you're saying, and i agree with you. You're talking about an almost different thing, at least as i understand. Im not talking about talking other's models and just giving them away, i already said that im against that. Also as i said, sites like paper replica host the links to the creator's site, so they promote him in a way, do you think thats bad? Of course its bad if i take a model and upload it to my own site for people to download and of course im doing damage to the original maker, i never intended to do that. And i also agree that always we must respect the creators choice, whatever that is. If the model is free, and someone wants it ill send them a link to the site of the original creator i consider that obvious, its easy for anyone and the creator gets what he deserves. We are on the same side on this, EXPECT the josef model. Again i understand your point of view and i completely respect that so im not going to cause any more trouble. And just like i said i wouldn't anyways, this model is the only case i ask for a model, and once i gain i did that because:
The model was free and now the creators of it which "disrespected" the creator of the game by making it anyways (as you may consider) just stopped doing what they were doing. I didnt see them saying that they dont want their model to exist anymore, if that were the case i would have stoppexd searching for it right away. But im sure they are fine by me getting the model, so why are you bothering so much. THis is a very specific case, in other case i would act differently. Im not stealing any earning from anyone! and i dont want do! Do i really harm anyone by having this model on my shelf? Is it so bad. I understand the logic (its gone so you shouldn't have it) but nor the creators of this or the creator of the game seem to have any problem so why have you? Anyway im not here to fight, again i respect your opinion so i promise to not ask for any models i shouldn't have again. Are we okay?

[alexdarth]

Btw i cant help but imagine elliot watching with his pop-corn and having a good time :P

[alexdarth]

You talked too much about paid models and money in general, where here none of it its involved. I didnt ask for a paid model, i didnt ask to upload a paid model, anyways i have found very few paid models that interest me, and the hundreds of free models make it for them. I love that game and i love that model and i wanted it, im repeating my self but i think you missed the point, no harm was done by me having the model. None lost money by me not vying their product, none lost money by me not visiting their website. i visited it anyways because i wanted to download it, if i could buy it i would. Its just important to me, and there was no other way of taking it, and once again none got harmed. AGAIN i respect you disagreeing to this so im not doing it again.

[Mike1158]

Except where the creator of the 'model' give explicit permission, no repaints or recreation is permitted. No passing on of models without explicit permission either if you want the model you should go to the original site. No passing on of paid models. In other words the models are locked into acquisition from the author/designer and their designated sites. This site has a zero tolerance policy on breaches of this very simple code of conduct. When in doubt, don't.