1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)

[Algebraist]

Dear all

The very hectic time at work is tailing off now so have been able to make progress with the build. For the 1/48 model I am looking into the "new extra" bits I have now learned about (see recent posts). So this has had the effect of forcing me to stop dithering with the 1/24 model and make a decision on how to do its internal structure and get on with it. So here goes...

So I settled on struts being made of three pieces of double walled corrugated card board with the outer layers having corrugations running vertically and the inner layer running horizontally. The formers being two layers with corrugations at right angles to each other.

I also settled on 12 struts around a ring of the rocket. Here is the "lumber yard" of the card for the struts



and then after they have been glued together to make the struts.



I used Aleene's tacky glue for laminating and found it particularly good for this job.

I decided to follow the design of the 1/48 model, in as much that the first former will be an entire circle. So I glued a cylindrical support to the bottom of the inside of the rocket (made from the inside tube of a "parcel tape" roll). I decided that I would attach/anchor/glue the struts to the formers below and above them but NOT to the walls of the rocket. The laminations of the double walled card board does not have such definite edges (depending on how the cut is made relative to the direction of the corrugations). Also it is difficult (impossible?) to always cut the laminations to within 0.5mm. So I did not want the struts "pulling in" or "pushing out" the wall of the rocket and for that to be fixed in place. So I cut the struts (and trimmed if necessary) so they snugly fitted into their position. My thinking is, the walls of the rocket is 3 layers of paper thick, the formers will be attached to the walls of the rocket and the struts attached to the formers (so the struts should not more) so if the rocket os "squeezed" (like when being picked up), the struts are "right next" to the wall that there will be no compression, and, the walls, being 3 layers thick, will not puncture or tear. Here it is with the struts in situ (but not glued in place).



Next I cut and folded all the tabs that attach the struts to the lower former and the tabs that will join the struts to the upper former. Then atached the tabs to the struts



Then on the inside of the thrust structure I added a ring of joining tabs that will go on top of the upper former. So now I could glue the the struts in place.



I cut the circular former, joining the two circles using 3M super 77, ensuring the corrugations were at right angles to each other and then glued the former on top of the struts and finally glued the tabs on the wall of the rocket to the former.



I am please that the finish result has kept the thrust structure circular. Also it seems strong. My feeling is that this many well work but only time will tell. This however is a big step forward. The other major thing to do (which is what comes next) is attaching the USA ring to the thrust structure ring. If that goes well then the rest of the first stage (as well as quite a bit of the other stages) should work similarly.

Regards

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Dear all

So I have managed to put the second skin inside the USA ring and then attempted to attach this ring to the thrust structure. The double layer USA ring is surprisingly stable.

I rested the USA ring on the thrust structure and carefully lined it up so the back and white matched. I then glued two tabs each diametrically opposite each other. It is really important to carefully press down on the ring (when gluing the tabs) to ensure the rings make contact with each other). Then I glued one tab at a time working my way round (again making sure the USA ring didn't creep up). This is the way Greelt recommended in the instructions.

The USA ring is so deep that I had to stand on a chair an lean in to be able to get to the tabs. I found Greelt's method worked a treat.

Here is the final result





As you can see the inside is "cavernous".

This was a monster glue which shows I am able to attach really big rings and it looks like the rocket will be straight. Also is is pretty circular and looks as if the former will gently ease it into a proper circle

Relief and now for a cup of tea!

Regards

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Dear all

Having settle on the internal structure of the 1/24 model and also been able to attach two rings together (thrust structure to USA ring) I need to make a decision on the possibility of stringers on the 1/24 model.

First of all thanks to SLOAN and dhanners for pointing out this consideration and also to the people who sent me private materials to help with this.

I thought it might be worthwhile sharing some of the things I have considered (just in case it helps others who might also be looking at this)

First of all the stringers are roughly about 5mm x 5mm square ridges (for the 1/24 model, and I will be always considering the 1/24 model unless I specifically say otherwise). If I am to make them the same way that the struts are made for the fairings, then, based on what I have done for the struts for the and timing myself, if I worked 8 hrs a day, 7 days a week it will take me over 1 year to cut, fold and glue all the stringers and that does not include gluing them to the body of the rocket. Even if I had the stamina to do this (which I am 99.9992% certain I do not) I think with that method of construction they would be crushed however you tried to move the rocket.

The only viable way I can think of making the stringers at the moment is to use white and black card (laminated if necessary) to the correct thickness and then cut and shaped to the correct stringer profile. This is conceivable (to me) though still a tremendous amount of work.

There is then the matter of gluing them to the body of the rocket. I think this can only be done once the rings of that section of the rocket have been glued together. However unless the stringers are perfectly straight and parallel I think it would be very noticeable and detract from the model. I am not sure if I have the ability to do this.

Another consideration is, if stringers are added then really the shading on the body of the rocket (which is depicting the stringers) will look odd and should really be just plane white or black. This would mean that a considerable number of parts of the body of the rocket would have to be "redone" which would in essence be (as far as I can tell) a semi redesign. This requires (if I understand what I have been trying to learn) learning at least two (though possibly more) computer software packages to some level (not a strong point for me!)

However even if I could do that I would not feel comfortable. My personal view (and that is all it is) is that this would no longer be adding some embellishments to the designers model, but rather more like manipulating and taking bits of the designers designs (if you get what I mean) which is not what they released their model for (I imagine).

So by considering the stringers question I have (unexpectedly) reach a sort of "position" about this 1/24 model, which is , I am blowing up (in as far as I can) the designers model as close to the 1/48 plans as possible. I think the design is so strong that (if I build it well) it should be an impressive model and (I hope) a credit to the design.

So I am not going to attempt stringers on this 1/24 model. Nor on the 1/48 model I am also building.

However, I do think that either a 1/24 model or a 1/48 model with stringers would look magnificent. But I think such a thing would have to be a new design and it would not be easy (for example the stringers come in different profiles, and sometimes they are "beyond" the nominal diameter of the rocket but other times they are the nominal diameter of the rocket).

Sorry if not attempting stringers is a disappointment. I know I have gone on a bit giving my reasons but I wanted to let people who have taken the time to send me stuff that I was very appreciative and I put time into looking at the stuff they sent me and have seriously thought about how to do it.

You never know maybe some will start a new design today, a 1/24 or 1/48 Saturn V with 3D stringers.

Regards

Kevin

[Maltedfalcon]

By stringers you mean longitudinal girders on the outside? If you needed like x number of rectangles x mm wide and xxx cm long. cut out of 1.56mm cardboard I would be happy to laser cut them for you and send them
it would be no bother especially if they were all the same width.. to me just cut and paste... You would need to paint them though.

I have the cardboard,
If that doesn't work, and you want something different, let me know

[Algebraist]

Originally Posted by Algebraist

Dear all

Having settle on the internal structure of the 1/24 model and also been able to attach two rings together (thrust structure to USA ring) I need to make a decision on the possibility of stringers on the 1/24 model.

First of all thanks to SLOAN and dhanners...

Many apologies for mis-spelling SLONE's "user name" (or should that be "handle" or am I just making things worse?)

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Originally Posted by Maltedfalcon

By stringers you mean longitudinal girders on the outside? If you needed like x number of rectangles x mm wide and xxx cm long. cut out of 1.56mm cardboard I would be happy to laser cut them for you and send them
it would be no bother especially if they were all the same width.. to me just cut and paste... You would need to paint them though.

I have the cardboard,
If that doesn't work, and you want something different, let me know

Hi Maltedfalcon

Yes that is what I mean by "stringers".

And thanks for the very generous offer. I am really interested but I first need to see if this idea is really doable and I am now doubly certain (for me at least) that a "3D stringers" Saturn V will have to be a different model to the 1/24 and 1/48 ones that I am building at the moment.

Regards

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Dear all

I have been looking at the differences between the downloads for the Greelt et al Saturn V hosted on the Lower Hudson Valley site and the Updates downloads for the Greelt et al Saturn V of this site.

Lower Hudson Valley has parts not on the PM Updates
PM Updates has parts not on the Lower Hudson Valley
There are many pars identical to both sites
There are some parts that are different

I have been comparing sheets by flicking between the two pdf's of the same sheet so that the eye catches changes. Here is what I have found (though I may well have miss something of course)

PM Update "Instruction complete 1-1".

These seem to be identical instruction to those on LHV except collected into a single pdf. Thus they do not contain any additional instructions to new parts included in the PM updates (though some of the addition parts pages contain instructions)

PM Update "Part One"

pdf page 60 in new. It is the retro rocket motors for the thrust structure.

PM Update "Part 2"

pdf page 15. (This is equivalent to pdf page 1 of the "command and service module" on LHV) The umbilical from the service module to the command module is slightly altered and is now a single part rather than 3 parts. Also part 3 has been slightly altered in thickness in one place
pdf page 16. (This is equivalent to pdf page 2 of the "command and service module" on LHV). Parts 12 and 13 have been recoloured and parts 18 and 21 have been altered in size. (Also some of the parts have been moved about so it is a little difficult to see if they are still the same, but I think they are)
pdf page 18. (This is equivalent to pdf page 4 of the "command and service module" on LHV). Parts 19 and 20 have been altered in size.
pdf page 19. (This is equivalent to pdf page 5 of the "command and service module" on LHV) . Part 15 has been altered in size.
pdf page 20. (This is equivalent to pdf page 1 of the "stage three" on LHV). Part 8 has been altered in size.
pdf page 21. (This is equivalent to pdf page 2 of the "stage three" on LHV). Part 8 has been altered in size. Part one has been altered on markings and part 6 has had indicators altered.
pdf page 23. (This is equivalent to pdf page 4 of the "stage three" on LHV). Part 9 has be altered in size and had extra markings added.
pdf page 24. (This is equivalent to pdf page 5 of the "stage three" on LHV). Part 9 has be altered in size and had extra markings added.
pdf page 31. (This is equivalent to pdf page 12 of the "stage three" on LHV). A circle has been added next to part 24.
pdf page 35. (This is equivalent to pdf page 16 of the "stage three" on LHV). Parts 46,60,61 and 62 have been altered in size.
pdf page 37. (This is equivalent to pdf page 18 of the "stage three" on LHV). A "Base Cone" former has been added.
pdf page 38. A new page with two formers on it.

PM Update Part 3

pdf page 22. (This is equivalent to pdf page 22 of the "stage two" on LHV). New indicators on parts 37 and 38.

pdf page 28 to 40. These replace pdf pages 28 to 34 of "stage two" on LHV (which is all of the remainder of stage two on LHV). The PM Update pages have replacement parts and many new parts which (it looks like) complete the stage.

Not the most exciting post but I hope this has been helpful for anyone approaching this build.

I don't know if this is possible but perhaps it would be nice if both sites carried a single definitive full complete set of pdf's for this model.



Regards

Kevin

[beckychestney]

Interesting! I've been planning to do just the opposite of what you've been up to and that list will come in handy. And by opposite I mean using Greelt's and Ton's parts but scaled back to 1:96.

[Algebraist]

Dear all

I have/am doing a bit of sorting out which is almost finished so hope to have progress on the 1/48 model soon.

For the 1/24 model, having got the last two steps done (to my relief) I am now busy cutting panels to make the inner third skin of the thrust structure and the USA ring along with the parts to make the composite struts, formers and all their joining tabs.

So while this is being done I thought I would show my most important tool: The tea mug!

For small jobs it is the Mr Bump mug



Larger jobs require more tea so it is a Disney mug



And for really big or tough jobs, I need a Flagon!



It holds 1 pint and is made by a company called "Denby".

Talking of "tea" I wonder if anyone remembers the following:

When I was a boy we used to have a brand of tea called PG tips which was made by Brooke Bond. In the 1960's a "quarter of tea" of PG Tips looked like this.



Each year Brooke Bond issued a themed set of cards you could collect. There were normally 50 cards to a set and you got one card inside each packet of a quarter of tea. In the 1970's they changed their packaging so it looked like this



You still only got one card per packet so you had to drink a lot of tea to stand any chance of getting all 50 cards. However if you bought bigger amounts of tea or even better "tea bags" you got far more cards (but we only ever had the quarter packet at a time). It looked like this



In 1972 the theme was "The Race for Space". It covered from "Sputnik" to the then present day, and also into the future, some of which was to come true and some of which never happened. The last card was "Manned Trip to Mars".

You could buy an album (for 5p or one shilling, 1/-) to put your cards in. The cards were about 1 inch by 2 inches and had a painted picture on one side and a paragraph of information on the other side.

I can still remember the excitement when i found out the new series was space as well as the trill of opening a new packet of tea and dying to see what card was inside. There was also the huge let down of when the series changed.

Here is what the cover of the album looked like



I never managed to collect many of the cards and did not have an album. However thanks to the internet you can but quality cards and albums for about £5. I now have a full set and album. So here is a sample



I am showing this because of an earlier set of posts discussing the idea of "catching" a spent Saturn V stage one with a giant helicopter. As this card shows this catching idea was actually done with the Discoverer satellite.

The cards are not just rockets and satelites. There are other vehicles, like the card below



If you like this picture you probably know Marco (of this forum) is currently building a terrific model on one of the Soviet Tracking Fleet, the "Kosmonavt Yuri Gagarin". This is the thread

Satellite tracking ship "Kosmonavt Yuri Gagarin" - 1:200 - Oriel

And of course I must show you this



There are lots of possibly forgotten and unusual things that could be made. For example



In fact if anyone wants a long term themed project they could make the "Brooke Bond Race Into Space" collection. There are dioramas, rockets, satellites, tracking stations and more.

Finally I remember seeing a poster (produced for schools I think) that went with this collection. I cannot find a photo anywhere of it (but I am sure I am not imagining it). Does anyone have a picture of this poster/wall chart? It would be great to see once more.

Regards

Kevin

Arrrrgh! I turn the pictures the right way round when I look at them on my computer but they have reverted back when uploaded. Could anyone offer advice on how to stop this happening please?

[Algebraist]

Dear all

Disappointed about the rotation of the pictures in my previous post. I think I have managed a very convoluted fix (but still grateful if someone can tell me of an easy way of ensuring rotation is correct)

So here they are again (right way round hopefully)











And as an extra here is the first page of inside the album which contains a list of the title/subject of all 50 cards in the set.



Hope you enjoy the pictures

Regards

Kevin