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  #251  
Old 03-18-2018, 02:14 PM
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mbauer mbauer is offline
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Kevin,

Fantastic build in progress! Enjoying learning how you're using stuff to make things work. Photos are great!

Mike
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  #252  
Old 03-20-2018, 07:03 PM
Mark Petersen Mark Petersen is offline
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Have seriously considered getting psyciatric help. Just kidding. A while back I tackled the 1/48th first stage but life got in the way. One thing I found that worked really well for the thrust structure and first stage tankage wad to use interior liners made from heavier art paper. Don't ask the weight, its been quite a while. These inner liners were cut to be just slightly longer than the inside circumference of the skin sections. The fourf pieces of the skin were joined with strips of tracing paper to get them as thin as possible. Before the liner was installed a second piece was wrapped around the outside. This piece was cut to just the right length. That way when the liner was inserted inside the skin the edges would be butted up against each other and snapped into place. This put the whole assembly under tension resulting in a near perfectly circular (for paper anyway) shell. At 1/24th scale the first stage without the engine flairings has to be around 17 inches in diameter.
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  #253  
Old 03-21-2018, 05:20 AM
gene1772 gene1772 is offline
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Algebraist, outstanding job on the Thrust Structure, you did not disappoint. Some models don't look good when you change the scale, this one looks great in any scale. Question, are you going to stick with the full model as downloaded or mix and match other parts. I am thinking in particular putting Ken West's Command Module on the top? I think if I were to rebuild mine (still thinking about it) I would put in UhUo2's Lunar Module and Ken West Command Module? Just wondering what your plans are. Either way, excellent work!
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  #254  
Old 03-22-2018, 02:51 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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Originally Posted by mbauer View Post
Kevin,

Fantastic build in progress! Enjoying learning how you're using stuff to make things work. Photos are great!

Mike
Hi Mike

Glad you are enjoying it!

By the way my dry circle cutter has now been "Tony-ied". It is brilliant. If you have got someone (or can do it yourself) who can adapt a dry way circle cutter to take a blade then you will have one heck of a paper/card circle cutter

Here is a photo of my two metal circle cutters

1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12326.jpg

I have called them "monster" and "baby monster". (If you are in my line of work then yes, after the two largest simple sporadic groups. If you are not in my line of work, who cares what that was about!).

Any news on your real rocket Saturn V?

Regards

Kevin
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  #255  
Old 03-22-2018, 02:58 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post
Have seriously considered getting psyciatric help. Just kidding. A while back I tackled the 1/48th first stage but life got in the way. One thing I found that worked really well for the thrust structure and first stage tankage wad to use interior liners made from heavier art paper. Don't ask the weight, its been quite a while. These inner liners were cut to be just slightly longer than the inside circumference of the skin sections. The fourf pieces of the skin were joined with strips of tracing paper to get them as thin as possible. Before the liner was installed a second piece was wrapped around the outside. This piece was cut to just the right length. That way when the liner was inserted inside the skin the edges would be butted up against each other and snapped into place. This put the whole assembly under tension resulting in a near perfectly circular (for paper anyway) shell. At 1/24th scale the first stage without the engine flairings has to be around 17 inches in diameter.
Hello Mark Petersen

Sounds like a really neat idea. Can I just check I have understood. There is the outer skin (like the USA ring say) and an inner skin just slightly bigger than the outer skin (circumference wise). When the inner skin is inserted into the outer skin its expansion makes the tube stiff.

Is there a middle skin? Is it used just to enable the inner skin to slide into the outer skin? Does it stay inside the model? Or have I totally misunderstood?

Regards

Kevin
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  #256  
Old 03-22-2018, 03:04 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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Originally Posted by Sakrison View Post
If you're using Adobe Reader, on EDIT dropdown menu click on, "Take a Snapshot," and highlight the area you want to print. Then on the PRINT screen, under "Pages to Print," choose "Selected Graphic" -- it will probably choose this for you. Then you can print that selection at whatever % you choose.
Dear Sakrison

I have now had a go at your suggested method. It works really well and is so easy that even I could do it. This is going to be really, really useful for me. Thank you for taking the time to explain it.

Hope you are still enjoying your 1/12 Apollo Command Module.

Regards

Kevin
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  #257  
Old 03-22-2018, 04:20 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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Originally Posted by gene1772 View Post
Algebraist, outstanding job on the Thrust Structure, you did not disappoint. Some models don't look good when you change the scale, this one looks great in any scale. Question, are you going to stick with the full model as downloaded or mix and match other parts. I am thinking in particular putting Ken West's Command Module on the top? I think if I were to rebuild mine (still thinking about it) I would put in UhUo2's Lunar Module and Ken West Command Module? Just wondering what your plans are. Either way, excellent work!
Hi gene1772

Thanks for your comments and glad you are enjoying the build.

I agree this model looks good in any scale. I would encourage anyone who like the Saturn V to build one of Greelt's F-1 engines in 1/24 scale. Just seeing it and holding it "in the flesh" that big is really good fun. (You could also really go to town with "enhancements" if that was what you wanted to do).

I have not yet decided about the LM or CM. I have bought Ken West's 1/12 CM (from https://www.ecardmodels.com/index.ph...anufacturer=23 ) and have had some thoughts about it. I am not fully decided on how the "top" of the 1/24 rocket will be (in as what will come off and what wont) but it might be possible to reduce some parts of this model and use them, namely, the outer shell (section 12), forward heat shield (Section 14), bits of the main crew hatch (aka side hatch) (section 17), boost protection cover (section 18) and launch escape tower and rocket (sections 19 and 20). Then again might want to use the heat shield or have the forward heat shield come off and reveal the earth recovery system and so on. Also there is the issue of the thickness of the card/paper to consider in the reduced model (will everything fit). So lots to think about.


I have a number of thoughts about the LM. Is it going to fit inside the Saturn V? Am I going to adapt the housing for the LM so that it opens out into 4 sections etc. In terms of the LM I have been looking at threads/pictures of uhu02's LM. Currently I am inclined to use the LM that comes with the down load of the Saturn V. First it is the correct scale (from reading the threads the actual scale of uhu02's model in reality is not certain). Also I want a LM as I remember when growing up. Don't misunderstand me, uhu02's is stunning but most of the work in it will not be seen. For example the spherical fuel tank in the ascent stage was never seen (by me) and the LM always had its mylar coating on etc. So when I see uhu02 model it is not the LM I saw. This is what I remember (Nasa photo)



So again lots to think about.

Overall though I think I am inclined to try and use as much as the original downloaded model as possible, but we shall see.

Regards

Kevin
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  #258  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:22 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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Hi Kevin,
thank you for the Info. I got the 1:96 version yesterday for my 65th birthday .
i know the thread from mk310149. Michaelīs postings (in german forum) are the reason why I want to build rockets
Hi Helmut

Great idea for a 65th b'day.

I am not surprised mk310149 inspired you, he builds outstanding models. His version of Ken West's command module (with blue internal floodlights!) is a real favourite of mine (link of build thread below in case anyone wants to see it)

Ken's Apollo CM

Looking forward to more posts on your builds

Regards

Kevin
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  #259  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:06 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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1/24 update and infra structure

Dear all

I decided to carry on with the 1/24 model. So this means adding the next "ring" of stage one (the corrugated ring) and also building up the internal structure.

I discovered before doing this I really need a new "construction stand" for the 1/24 model that could rotate the model without the bottom of the thrust structure base being rubbed and scratched. So set about this (adapting what I could).

My idea was to make a "strong" cylinder (the same diameter as the rocket) which was deeper than the amount the F-1 engine fairings stick out below the thrust structure. Then have this cylinder attach to the base of the rocket using (self adhesive) magnetic paper (making use of the ferrous paper already in the place of where F-1 engines attach) and have the other end of the cylinder attach to a turntable. Here is the cylinder in the making

1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12321.jpg 1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12322.jpg 1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12327.jpg

The turn table structure is a load of inner tubes of toilet rolls held together using paper clips and a card disk with a smaller tube attached. The paper clips stop the ends of the tubes from rubbing the card disk and so the disk only rubs on the very end of the curves of the paper clips. this has very low friction so turns very easily. Then added some magnetic paper (self adhesive) to the disk and placed similarly positioned (self adhesive) ferrous paper on the cylinder.

1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12330.jpg 1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12329.jpg

Here is the finished stand

1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12328.jpg

And two photos showing it "working" (though still photos showing something moves is a bit illogical!)

1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12331.jpg 1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)-sdc12332.jpg

It is probably over engineered (could hold the forth bridge up) but it is better too strong than too weak. For reference (for those not from the UK) the saying "hold the forth bridge up" is used to imply something is mega strong for what it was designed. To explain the saying, there is a famous (in the UK) rail bridge in Scotland called "The forth (rail) bridge", apparently a UNESCO world heritage site too (photos from wikipedia below). As you can see it looks and is mega strong and heavy. So if you can hold that bridge up...






So now can proceed with the 1/24 build.

Regards

Kevin
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  #260  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:48 AM
Algebraist Algebraist is offline
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1/24 corrugated ring issue

Dear all

Now having a "turn-table" for the rocket I can now put all the internal structure in the USA ring. However I need to attach the corrugated ring before making the USA too stiff.

So I cut out the corrugated ring panels. Disaster, they were not correct! The upper length of each panel was 1.5 to 2.5 mm longer than the lower length on each panel. Naturally I thought I had just made a cutting error however this turned out not to be the case. They were printed that way. After some investigation I discovered this was not because of some "stretching" effect of the photo copier (which was my first thought). Nor was it because of some error in the paper original I was enlarging (checked by doing a digital "cut and enlarge").

It turns out the original pdf's are very very slightly. Moreover the panels are not at right angles (the cross diagonals are different lengths). In fact it turn out that the 26 corrugations on each panel are not actually parallel lines. Now for the 1/48 scale this is not noticeable and the very small adjustments needed come down to the thickness of a knife blade (so I do not think anyone would notice). However at the 1/24 scale we are talking a difference in circumference between the upper part of the ring and the lower part of the ring of about 8mm.

I checked the other rings on stage one and they also have a difference of about 1.5mm per panel (between top and bottom lengths). There is no way you can join one ring to another with an 8mm difference and it not bulge.

I tried "squaring up" the corrugated ring, but then the corrugations "slope" (this is how I discovered they were not actually parallel). They are about 0.06 mm wider apart at the top than at the bottom. You could not see this with you eye BUT this is why squaring up will not work.

No criticism of designers intended. Just explaining what I found. Also I note that the designers do NOT say "if you enlarge everything then all will work fine".

I think what has happened is that the programme used to put pixals in certain positions must use some kind of dithering maths and given the original resolution worked with was "spot on" for that resolution. The issue only arises when enlarging.

So whilst considering what to do next I watched how the real Saturn V was stacked in the VAB for inspiration. An unbelievable feat done in an unbelievable building. Here it is in case you have never seen it (you need to supply your own soundtrack though!)




Regards

Kevin
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