1/24 Apollo/Saturn V (enlarged 1/48 Greelt et al version)

[Algebraist]

Dear all

Some time ago (in one of the earlier posts of this thread) there was a discussion of an early NASA idea of reusing stage 1 of the Saturn V by capturing it mid air before it fell into the sea after it had been jettisioned.

This is not such a crazy idea as it seems as this mid air capture has been successfully used for the discoverer spacecraft in 1959. Here is a picture and a description



(for reference these are from the Brooke Bond PG tips "Race into space" free card collection)

Although NASA abandoned the idea of capturing the Saturn V stage 1 as it fell to earth I wondered just how far they had got with the idea and if there were any pictures of the proposed capture craft.

Anyway I have recently come across this and thought it might be new and of interest to some of you



The capturing craft is called the "Hiller Air Tug" and I came across it on the following site The Space Review: Going big: catching a Saturn V first stage with a helicopter

This (I learned) is not just a concept drawing. It was a seriously thought out helicopter. Interestingly it has engines on the tips of the rotor blades to turn them. The above site also gave a link to the following interesting you tube (which shows at the Hiller Aircraft museum)



Seems as if the design was sound but just a bit ahead of its time.

Does anyone know if a paper model exists of the Hiller Air Tug?

Regards

Kevin

[beckychestney]

WOW! That's one BIG set of rotors!

[Lex]

That look suspiciously like the FW Triebflugel. Did technology at that time advance to the point where the structural issues can be resolved?

[SAustin16]

Good Morning to All. Although it might be possible to retrieve the S1 stage in mid-air, scaling up a helicopter to have the performance necessary, and make it actually "flyable" for precision maneuvers would probably be quite difficult. The empty S1 stage weighs 330,000 pounds. For some comparison, the massive Boeing C-17 4-engine Military Transport can carry "only" a carefully-loaded payload of 170,000 pounds. Of course the space program was lead by people who made the impossible possible...they might have made this work. Most knowledgeable people thought that Jack Conroy's SIVB-carrying Guppies would never fly either. I would have loved to have seen the S1's retrieved by a huge helicopter as the Saturn Apollo was still climbing to orbit. Letting them sink to the depths after every mission was a sad waste. Same with the S2's.

[beckychestney]

At least pieces are being raised for fascinating museum pieces.

[SAustin16]

I agree with you Miss Becky. There are few things better than seeing an F1 up close. The equivalent of 32 Million horsepower each, in the volume of my cubicle at work...completely hand built by artisans with skills that no longer exist. The injector plate alone, with its concentric ridges is a work of art in itself, designed to sub-divide the thrust into stable sections. Simply brilliant. So glad there are detailed paper models available.

The Alamogordo Space Museum near White Sands / Holloman AFB in New Mexico has a complete F1 sitting on its side outside in their Rocket Garden. My little grandson and I would go look at it whenever we visited...it's wonderful to view and touch such fantastic machinery. I believe it's the most powerful engine every built...and flown.

[Algebraist]

Originally Posted by SAustin16

Good Morning to All. Although it might be possible to retrieve the S1 stage in mid-air, scaling up a helicopter to have the performance necessary, and make it actually "flyable" for precision maneuvers would probably be quite difficult. The empty S1 stage weighs 330,000 pounds. For some comparison, the massive Boeing C-17 4-engine Military Transport can carry "only" a carefully-loaded payload of 170,000 pounds. Of course the space program was lead by people who made the impossible possible...they might have made this work. Most knowledgeable people thought that Jack Conroy's SIVB-carrying Guppies would never fly either. I would have loved to have seen the S1's retrieved by a huge helicopter as the Saturn Apollo was still climbing to orbit. Letting them sink to the depths after every mission was a sad waste. Same with the S2's.

They are really interesting points SAustin16. I like these photos of the spacecraft carrying super guppy (from NASA)








Maybe I have missed it but I cannot find a paper model of the Super Guppy. Does anyone know if one exists?

And talking of planes that look like they will not fly (at least to me) I do think of this (picture from wikipedia)



the Antonov 225

And what about the Stratolaunch, which looks like it is going to just snap in two!



(picture from wikipedia).

Seeing it take off looks amazing.



As SAustin16 points out, it does seem improbable that the "helicopter capture" of the stage one of a Saturn V would be possible.

Regards

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Originally Posted by beckychestney

At least pieces are being raised for fascinating museum pieces.

Originally Posted by SAustin16

I agree with you Miss Becky. There are few things better than seeing an F1 up close. The equivalent of 32 Million horsepower each, in the volume of my cubicle at work...completely hand built by artisans with skills that no longer exist. The injector plate alone, with its concentric ridges is a work of art in itself, designed to sub-divide the thrust into stable sections. Simply brilliant. So glad there are detailed paper models available.

The Alamogordo Space Museum near White Sands / Holloman AFB in New Mexico has a complete F1 sitting on its side outside in their Rocket Garden. My little grandson and I would go look at it whenever we visited...it's wonderful to view and touch such fantastic machinery. I believe it's the most powerful engine every built...and flown.

Following on from Becky and SAustin16 people might be interested in these two videos



and



I was wondering has anyone actually seen any of the recovered F-1 engines?

Regards

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Dear all

So have managed to do a bit more on the second stage.

After thinking about the "points" of the LH2 fairings I decided to "strengthen" the points with paper lollipop sticks. Here are some making shots




And then them finished



I was surprised how well the sticks worked. I simply run a bead of glue down the length. It really held well and kept the shape. However I really did not like the very end.

Whilst contemplating this I made the side tubes. I used the same system as previously so planned to use the "end cones" as per the additional parts. However I must have overlooked something in the calculations of my tubes as the end cones were way too big. So it was rule, compass and paper time to make some that fit.



And here they are finished with an astronaut for scale



I used the following photos to judge where to simply glue these tubes onto the sides of the LH2 fairings





(Source heroicrelics.org: Relics of the Heroic Age of Manned Space Flight )

I have no photo of this (me an tech had a disagreement).

Then came the "diamond part". What a nightmare (for me) trying to edge glue these neatly onto the LH2 fairings. Eventually they ended up like this



Not the best but it is the best I could do.

Finally I decided to make the points of the fairings better simply bt cutting the end off after the end of the stick (which (by luck) is what the picture of the actual rocket looked like.



Finally a fridge test



The last part to make for the stage 2 is the LH2 re-circulation fairing. This was straightforward and made using the same system



And then the final fridge test not just of stage 2 but of the rocket I think



So the only thing left for stage 2 is to apply the necessary ferrous strips to the body of the rocket.

Regards

Kevin

[Algebraist]

Dear all

In the previous post you see I thought I had essentially finished stage 2. However looking at the last page of "updates 3" (page 40) I see there are some more parts some of which I think are for stage 2

Using this graphic



which is from https://www.apollomaniacs.com/apollo/sv_s2e.htm

I am pretty sure these parts



are the 4 communication and telemetry cluster as highlighted here



(Source for first picture is heroicrelics.org: Relics of the Heroic Age of Manned Space Flight)

Then there is the aft skirt umbilical (I think) which is shown here



However I am not entirely sure about adding this part as I am not certain it is this part. But also when actually looking at the video



the openings seem to be shuttered off once the swing are detaches. Also all of all the other umbilical connection places are recessed into the model whereas this one will be "stuck on".

Then there is the personnel access door. Now there is such a door on the forward skirt of stage two as shown in these pictures



But the part does not look (at least to me) like this door. So I wondered if it is actually for a different access door on the rocket. I know there is another one on the stage 2 -3 interstage, but it is black in colour. So I was wondering if anyone knew which access door this part was for.

Then there is this part



I have no idea where this is supposed to represent and go. I anyone is able to tell me I would be very grateful.

Finally there are 8 of these



I can't seem to find anything like this on any of the slow motion launch videos like on here



The only thing I can find is this picture of the stacking of Apollo 4



which comes from the Project Apollo Image Gallery (The Project Apollo Image Gallery)

which seems to show the right sort of pattern round the top rim of stage 2. However they do not seem to be on other Saturn V's (as far as I can see but I may well be wrong). I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on these

So a few things for me to look into in order to finish off stage 2

Regards

Kevin