Saturn 1B tanks Aries construction techniques

[Willard11]

I decided to start a new thread from Kevin(kwc)'s More rockets in 1:480 where I posted my original question about making the Saturn 1B 1st stage tanks from the Aries Mini Saturn 1B Apollo 7 template in 1:450 scale. Erik(ETG), the designer, posted directions how to make these tanks from his template. This post shows my attempt to build the tanks using his directions. I am also using an idea I have from my previous attempts to build the tanks.

I printed the tanks on plain paper, index card and card stock. I made 2 copies on plain paper so I would have one to try my idea. The 1st two photos show the tanks printed, scaled to 1:480 from 1:450 using the scaling option for the Ink-Jet printer, scored on the back and bent in valley folds per Erik's directions.

The next photo shows the set-up I used to bend the tanks. Erik's directions are to use a smooth round knitting needle to shape the cylinders, but I don't have one so I taped a dowel stick to shape the cylinders. The next photo shows the method I used to bend the paper on the dowel stick to form the shape. I used two long, thin metal (one is a ruler and the other is a N-scale model train gauge scale) to form the shapes. I used this to bend the plain paper, index card and card stock.

The next photos shows my idea to shape the tanks. It is a composite method that uses plain paper for the printed outside surface and bent shaped index card glued to the inside. The glue will dry in the set-up and hopefully retain its shape. It takes longer waiting for the glue to dry on the dowel stick. Also, the bend index card is cut to a narrower width than the tanks to not interfere with the valley folds. Shown in the photos are: the composite set-up, 1st tank bent, all white tanks bent (I skipped tanks to allow time for bends to dry) and all the tanks glued. The next photo shows the back side of the composite tanks with the valley folds not glued.

The final photo shows the results of the different papers and bending methods. Next, I will see how they roll into the final 1st stage. I have not been very successful at this stage as shown in my previous posts on Kevin(kwc)'s More rockets in 1:480 thread.

[Kevin WS]

Very clever. And it appears to have worked out very well!

[Willard11]

Bending the tanks is only part of building the model, the other part is rolling the tanks into a cylinder. This part is where I have had the most problems previously. These photo show my progress rolling the cylinder using the composite method of bending the tanks.

I had such success with the index card composite tank bend that I decided to use the other plain paper printout to try a card stock composite tank bend. The 1st photo shows the card stock set-up and I was more careful in cutting the card stock so they were not longer than the plain paper. The next photo shows the set-up I used when gluing the tanks. The clothes pins held the metal in place and the tool on top of the clothes pins added weight to it. The next photo shows the front and back of the index card and card stock composite tank bends.

The next photo shows the tanks rolled into a cylinder. I used a ring brace to glue the valley folds to keep the round shape. The next photo shows the bottom ring brace in front of the cylinder before being glued in place. The top ring brace can be seen in the photo. The next photo shows on the left the top ring brace, the middle show the bottom without the ring brace, and on the right the bottom with the ring brace.

My wife found a cardboard tube that fit inside the cylinder; so I used it to keep the ring shape while the glue dried. I used Tacky Glue to glue the valley folds to the ring brace. The next photo shows my previous brace method compared to the ring brace method.

The last two photos show the tanks cylinder with my previous attempts. I tried to scale the 1:450 template to 1:480 using the scale option in the printer dialogue box. The pdf file is password protected which keeps it from being changed. Maybe Erik(ETG) will make a version in 1:480 scale for comparison with the other 1:480 models. It will be interesting to see his model on the 1:480 scale 34 launch pad model.

[Algebraist]

I agree with Kevin WS, your method is very clever Willard11 and looks good. Thanks for sharing

Regards and take care

Kevin

[Willard11]

I have been looking at different Atlas model templates for my next test build and have started using the open source programs, Gimp and Inkscape to try modifying them. I decided to see if I could use Gimp to modify the The Lower Hudson Valley Paper Model 1:480 series Saturn 1B models that Kevin(kwc) built in his More rockets in 1:480 posts using the Aries construction techniques. I am still in the learning process with these programs, so this is a proof of concept for me.

After looking at YouTube videos, I opened the Apollo 7 (SA-205).pdf file in Gimp, used the rectangle select tool on the 1st stage and selected it. Then I used the Scale tool to stretch the width of the 1st stage. Using the ruler as a guide, I stretched it to 50mm wide. The 1st photo shows the model template of the 1st stage stretched wider than the 2nd stage. I then saved the file and printed it. The lettering was also stretched in the process of stretching the tanks. Since this is a proof of concept, I didn't correct the lettering width.

The 1st stage tanks were built using the same Aries construction techniques in previous posts. The next photos shows the parts in an upright position and shows the bottom of the parts. I glued the card stock circles in the 2nd stage. The next photo shows the parts stacked. I am not gluing them together because I am using them for test fittings the down-scaling of the Aries 1:450 model parts. When I glue the parts together, I will add the fins and kitbash the engines and antennas.

The last photos show the current process of down-scaling the Aries 1st stage with this model's 1st stage. I was able to put the bottom on the Aries 1st stage. The last photos shows the Aries 1st stage with down-scaled 1:96 models to 1:480 scale. I am curious what software Erik(ETG), the designer, used to design the Aries Mini Saturn 1B Apollo 7 template in 1:450 scale.

Breaking News: After writing the post above and re-sizing the photos to post with it. I decided to open the Mini Saturn 1b.pdf file in both Gimp and Inkscape. Before this time, I always got a dialog box asking for a password with all the the software I used except Acrobat Reader. It opened in both programs without this dialog box. It is a bitmap image and not vector graphics. I saved it as a pdf file with a different name and now the other programs can open this new pdf file. This should make down-scaling the template easier than trying to do it by using the printer scaling option.

[Paper Kosmonaut]

A long time ago I have built a Saturn 1 (SA-5) in a reduced scale ( 1/96 > 1/370) and just rolled all tanks separately. And although I like the way Erik tried and worked around the problem of having to roll all tanks, I find this method unnecessarily complex and elaborate. Interesting but elaborate.

This method used here, by the way, is in a slightly different way very well useable in giving WW1 airplane wings their characteristic ribbed appearance.

[peaceglue]

Hello friends,


I can't resist: It is a kind of DIY corrugated cardboard!


But it seems to me a little bit complicated, would it be not easier to work with half cylinders and assemble them with long thin sharp folded joiners...


Only a suggestion, no offence intended.

[southwestforests]

Sure seems like doing that tank grouping the regular model rocket way would give a more satisfying shape and appearance with less hassle.

[Willard11]

The Saturn 1 and 1B 1st stages are unique in that they were built as a cluster of propellant tanks engineered from older rocket tank designs, which leading critics jokingly refer to it as "Cluster's Last Stand". There are several ways to model the 1st stage; by a single cylinder with shading for the tanks, build the 8 tanks with a center tank, and Erik(ETG)'s Aries Mini Saturn 1B corrugated tank method.

I am at a disadvantage that I can't find the Aries web site to provide links to Erik(ETG)'s innovative design of this model. On the 2nd page(see photo), he has an optional part if the other part is too difficult to make that is a single cylinder with shading for the tanks. Too difficult may be what other modelers are calling complicated. In the next photo are my previous attempts to model Erik(ETG)'s design. It has become a challenge, almost even an obsession, to find the technique to model it.

I tried Paper Kosmonaut's link in his reply and got an error message. I think there is a missing colon in the URL between the http and //. I found this post on the forum: An inbetweenie: Saturn SA-5 in 1/370. I like the way you show the process of building your models. For a new modeler, it can be intimidating to see only the completed model without knowing how it was built. I am always amazed at the skill level of your models. As I said in other posts, this is a goal I'm working to achieve in my models.

Thanks peaceglue for your suggestion. I had the same idea but at 1:450/480 scales I couldn't find paper tubes that small. At a larger scale, I could try paper straws to cut in half and attach together. I did try cutting plastic coffee stirrers in half and using them to form the curve for the paper. The problem I had was finding a glue to hold the paper to the plastic and not discolor the paper. In the photo of the previous attempts, you can see in the front my attempt to use this method. This is something I will look into again in the future with different glues.

I can definitely see that southwestforests isn't a rivet counter. If you are modeling a Saturn 1B 1st stage, you are missing 2 tanks. There should be 8 tanks on the 1st stage, unless this is part of the less hassle “FreeStyle” method of modeling. Being a new modeler, I'm learning a lot from the forum. Like the prototypical value of a model is the ratio of “appearance”(atmosphere) to “detail” in the model. I guess “appearance” is Paper Craft Modeling and “detail” is Paper Scale Modeling. In the next Google On-Line Meeting I will ask about this.

[southwestforests]

Originally Posted by Willard11

I can definitely see that southwestforests isn't a rivet counter.

Truth
I was at one point, especially with trains and with plastic armor/armour/tanks but declining health put a definite concrete absolute permanent end to that.

If you are modeling a Saturn 1B 1st stage, you are missing 2 tanks. There should be 8 tanks on the 1st stage, unless this is part of the less hassle “FreeStyle” method of modeling.

Turns out the model isn't a Saturn I, is Estes' flying model rocket model of one of the Ansari X-Prize contenders from some years back; it served to illustrate the concept with minimal typing.