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  #101  
Old 02-20-2011, 02:27 AM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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Very good job, and nice to read about it too. I think it is exemplary, not least because you leave an option for each modeller to attach their own interpretation to greyness and thickness of lines of, e.g., the corrugation.

I hope the final result will be presented in a form that maintains the integrity of your original work, i.e. maintains groupings of lines like corrugation. I appreciate even an ordinary pdf of a vector-drawn model, but it would be a lot of (unnecessary) work to isolate the corrugation again, if the grouping of it is lost in the "saving as" in a new format.

Just a thought: You might want to offer one version for people who just intend to print and build, and another (more voluminous) for those who'd appreciate being able to tinker with it.

If so, you will set another standard, which may show us the way of the future. Then paper modeling will be as much a matter of making one's own interpretation of the original work (shadings, colouring, line thickness, etc.).

Leif
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  #102  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:35 AM
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billy.leliveld billy.leliveld is offline
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First pictures
Attached Thumbnails
Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-20022011866.jpg   Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-20022011865.jpg  
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  #103  
Old 02-20-2011, 07:57 AM
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Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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That first pohoto is absolutely endearing. You're inside the model, looking out on what seems to be a full-size blueprint. The illusion is complete. And then, with the next photo, the perspective changes and you see that it is a model.

Sets the tone for what's to come, I'd like to think.

Leif
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  #104  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:29 AM
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BILL AMOS BILL AMOS is offline
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Billy...just had to try out one of those seats...very comfortable....should have narrowed my butt while i was scaling down...i take the first ticket.....bill amos
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  #105  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:54 AM
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Lol.. here's the toilet-seat, wanna give it a try ?
This is the first time I did a toilet in paper, all those hot-rod X-planes I did lately didn't have one..
Leif, it was sitting on the original book with instructions
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Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-20022011867.jpg   Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-20022011870.jpg  
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  #106  
Old 02-20-2011, 09:58 AM
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Rubenandres77 Rubenandres77 is offline
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Billy!!!!!

Those pictures are great!!!

I know it was me who cleaned the lines and painted the
new interior, but one thing is to see the Corel file on screen
and another very different to see photos of the real, tangible object.

I know it sounds very strange that I say it...
but it looks really sweet


Please, can you share some details, just for reference?
What paper and printer you used?





Leif, thank you for your words.

I'm afraid it will be difficult to preserve the grouping
of elements. In the tests I've run, once converted
to PDF the document preserves the vector quality,
but when this PDF is re-opened in Corel or Illustrator
groups are lost.

Original Corel file:
Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-53-groups.jpg

File after converted to PDF and re-opened in Corel:
Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-54-pdflines.jpg


If someone knows an easy and workable trick to
preserve the groupings of the elements, then all
suggestions are welcome. Otherwise, my friend,
we'll have to deal with a lot of ungrouped lines.

And by "a lot" I mean -literally- "thousands".

(Now is time for us to run in circles like a crazy desperate hopeless user )



As for the possibilities, they're probably endless.

By the time being the kit is already 104 pages...
and still counting because I still have to vectorize
the assembly instructions, transcribe the texts,
and place the remaining parts.

Do not be surprised if this kit totalizes some 120-150 pages.

Of course, you won't need to print them all. In the worst
of scenarios, you'll only need to print a fourth or a third
of that amount. Probably even less.

You know that I'm determined to make a great
digital re-master of this kit. No matter how "humble",
"old", or whatever. I believe this kit deserves it.
I believe Mr. Zorn deserves it.


Now....

Do I want to set a new standard?

Yes.

I believe that no matter how "humble" a model may be,
every design deserves to be respected and cherished.
More so when it is a historic paper model such as this one.

By what you've seen in this thread and what is to come
you know this will be something memorable.

But this is not only limited to the amount of parts and
available options that result in +100 pages. That would be
just plainly silly to increase the number of pages only
to make it big.

I'm also paying attention to the way the parts are distributed
on the pages, trying to not overcrowd them. Marking them
in a way that the modelist identify them easily (you don't love
it when you just can't find a part because the number is lost
in the page, do you?).

I'm also putting identification icons on the corner of pages
so that once the modelist prints the kit he/she just has
to look at the upper right corner of the page to know where
to find the colour, BW or grey parts.

Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-55-pages.jpg

In simple words: making it more user-friendly.

The costs of printing have been reduced a lot lately, and printing
20-30 pages is not costly, the difference between printing 20 and
printing 30 pages is not much when done domestically (which is
what most of you make).


You'll all agree that having an electronic document
allows multiple possibilities. And one great thing is
the freedom to choose between options, printing
only those pages that are of interest for the modelist.

Even if this kit ends up with more than 100 pages,
the modelist will only need to print the ones that he
choses.

Having that in mind, my thoughts with this kit have
lead me to prepare the following provisional table of contents:

(some, of course, taken directly from the original book,
preserving it as much as possible, but properly updated)

  1. Cover
  2. Credits page
  3. Original text of the Ford Trimotor 5-AT
  4. General instructions for paper modeling
  5. Detailed assembly instructions of this kit
  6. Instructions of how to use and how to print this kit
  7. Templates for clear windows
  8. Black and white parts (structural inner parts / formers)
  9. Colour parts:
    1. Wicker seats / tan option
    2. Wicker seats / green option
    3. Interior (wood option)
    4. Interior (green option)
    5. Interior (corrugated metal option)
  10. Optional Liveries:
    1. Optional livery: American Airways N9683 (grey-coloured for white paper)
    2. Optional livery: American Airways N9683 (lines for silver/metallic paper)
    3. Optional livery: Island Airlines N7584
    4. Optional livery: TAT NC9606 "City of Columbus" (grey-coloured for white paper)
    5. Optional livery: TAT NC9606 "City of Columbus" (lines for silver/metallic paper)
    6. Optional livery: TWA N9651 "City of Philadelphia"
    7. . . . still unsure whether to include or not a Colombian "SCADTA" or "SACO" livery.
  11. Black and white unmarked lineart (customizable)

As you can see, the original intentions of Mr. Zorn of including
optional interior, seats and liveries can be fully presented here
in digital form, while the 1982 book was very restricted.

We don't even have anymore a TAT livery with an AA tail and number!
Re-colouring the Ford Trimotor by Peter Zorn-56-tails.jpg


There are no more restrictions imposed by the publishers.
No more 4-inks only. No more thinking on the costs of having a
print run of several thousand books with a fixed number of pages.

As you can see, I've taken some liberties too of adding even
more options. Not because I want to mess with Mr. Zorn's design
but instead as a way of offering him and all of you a more complete
experience. So we all enjoy more possibilities taking advantage of
our current technologies.

Of course, if there is any controversy as to the additions I've made
that are not in the original kit, I'm willing to withdraw them.


I think having several options to choose from is even more
delightful for the user.

I'm sure no-one would complain of a free kit that offers so much
to the modelist. By $0.00 you get a lot of things to toy with.



Do I want to go even further?

Yes.


You all know that downloading a freebie usually means
to be subject to any surprise.

How many times you've downloaded a free kit without
assembly instructions?

How many times you've downloaded a free kit that only
has instruction in a language you don't understand?

It has happened to many of you. I also have downloaded
free model with Japanese-only instructions, or with instructions
in a European language that I can not understand.
It even happens in paid pre-printed kits.

I know that English is used in a lot of parts of the world.
And many of us understand it fairly well.
But it is not the most spoken language around the world.
And in this forum we have modelers from all around the world.

And when you get a model with Polish instructions and you
can not understand it... the same may happen the other
way around. Not all the Polish modelers may know English.

Replace "Polish" with "Portuguese", "Spanish", "French",
"German", "any-language-you-speak" and you get the same
for several modelers around the world who would get a hard
time trying to assemble this, and have to spend a time trying
to figure out how to make things, adding time, stress, and
frustration to the experience.


Does anyone support this?
Is anyone willing to help me?
Is anyone willing to translate the original English instructions
to another language, so that this model can be accessible to
even more people around the world?


This is so big that I can not handle it alone. And when thinking
on any ideas of translation to other languages, it is pretty clear
that I cannot make it by myself. I'm training to be an English-Spanish
translator, but there is no way that I can possibly translate to French,
Polish, German, or whatever other language we may think of.
And of course, I would not use an on-line translator.

Thinking that adding text pages is not a problem (the modelist has the
choice of printing them or not). And that by using a proper font the
number of translated pages doesn't necessarily adds a lot of new pages,
I think this is a real possibility. And it would take this kit even further
that we all have imagined.


This project stopped being mine alone a long time ago.
Seeing how many people are contributing and are following
this thread has made this a sort of community project.

I have already counted with the invaluable help of Ron, Billy and
Leif, who have provided wonderful suggestions, ideas, and advice.

And Mr. Zorn himself has contributed a newly designed instrument panel.

If someone is serious enough as to help with the translations of the
assembly instructions, we will make of this already great kit an even
greater kit in every sense.

And yes, we can all make of this a new milestone in paper model kits.
We can set a new standard. Or be the new standard.

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Rubén Andrés Martínez A.


Last edited by Rubenandres77; 02-20-2011 at 10:12 AM.
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  #107  
Old 02-20-2011, 01:29 PM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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That is a marvellous agenda, Ruben!

I will comment just on one section, and leave the many other wonderful suggestions to others for their comments. Basically, I think you could have the one large comprehensive version you envisage, and still offer some special versions. Here goes with my input:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubenandres77 View Post
I'm afraid it will be difficult to preserve the grouping of elements. In the tests I've run, once converted to PDF the document preserves the vector quality, but when this PDF is re-opened in Corel or Illustrator groups are lost. […] If someone knows an easy and workable trick to preserve the groupings of the elements, then all suggestions are welcome. Otherwise, my friend, we'll have to deal with a lot of ungrouped lines.

And by "a lot" I mean -literally- "thousands".
I know. I've been there. It's not fun. At all. That's why I was thinking, let's try to do something new here, something that might point a way towards the future. Two (or three) solutions, as I see it:

1. Offer one version of zipped original files, for the hard-core enthusiasts who wishes to have them (limited editions, one for each version, parts only). If .svg preserves the groups, fine. That format will open in several programmes, including Adobe Illustrator. If not, we'll have to think again.

2. See if there's an option in your software which allows you to save it as pdf while retaining the editing possibilities. Illustrator has such an option. The resulting pdf typically is 30 percent larger.

3. Save one page as .ai (if possible, otherwise .svg) and lend it to someone (sic!) with Illustrator and let that person do a special pdf-version, preserving editing possibilites. Such a pdf-file can be used by the ordinary builder to just print & build. Let's see if it can also be used by the hard-core enthusiast to fiddle with line thicknesses, etc.

Let's at least entertain that thought for a little while, possibly even experiment a little. Who knows, maybe we come up with something truly new. We can offer such a test-file in the forum for people with different platforms and software to test it.

Think about it as of a Beethoven symphony. The notes, the score, is there once and for all, not to be altered. But the interpretation of it varies with every new conductor & orchestra taking it on.

Wouldn't it be fun to watch how the model you've taken such care to orchestrate will be interpreted?

No need to answer now. You have bigger issues to resolve. Just stick the suggestion at the back of your mind for future consideration.

Leif

Last edited by Leif Ohlsson; 02-20-2011 at 01:46 PM.
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  #108  
Old 02-20-2011, 02:11 PM
Rubenandres77's Avatar
Rubenandres77 Rubenandres77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leif Ohlsson View Post
...
I know. I've been there. It's not fun. At all. That's why I was thinking, let's try to do something new here, something that might point a way towards the future. Two (or three) solutions, as I see it:

1. Offer one version of zipped original files, for the hard-core enthusiasts who wishes to have them (limited editions, one for each version, parts only). If .svg preserves the groups, fine. That format will open in several programmes, including Adobe Illustrator. If not, we'll have to think again.

2. See if there's an option in your software which allows you to save it as pdf while retaining the editing possibilities. Illustrator has such an option. The resulting pdf typically is 30 percent larger.

3. Save one page as .ai (if possible, otherwise .svg) and lend it to someone (sic!) with Illustrator and let that person do a special pdf-version, preserving editing possibilites. Such a pdf-file can be used by the ordinary builder to just print & build. Let's see if it can also be used by the hard-core enthusiast to fiddle with line thicknesses, etc.

Let's at least entertain that thought for a little while, possibly even experiment a little. Who knows, maybe we come up with something truly new. We can offer such a test-file in the forum for people with different platforms and software to test it.

Think about it as of a Beethoven symphony. The notes, the score, is there once and for all, not to be altered. But the interpretation of it varies with every new conductor & orchestra taking it on.

Wouldn't it be fun to watch how the model you've taken such care to orchestrate will be interpreted?

No need to answer now. You have bigger issues to resolve. Just stick the suggestion at the back of your mind for future consideration.

Leif

Leif.
I have Illustrator. i just don't know how to use it

I made a quick experiment:
I exported a page from Corel to AI file.
It opens in Illustrator, and apparently it preserves the groups.
Strange things happen to the text (is no longer text, only independent curves). And when a shape has strokes, Illustrator interprets them as separated objects.
Lines can be edited. A group of lines can be edited altering all widths to all the lines at the same time.
The same AI file can be opened in Corel, and though the names of the groups are lost, and text is converted to curves, the groups are preserved, and still editable the same as the original CDR file.



I also exported to SVG.
Strange things happen:
Lines are no longer lines, but objects. Meaning that the width of any given line cannot be altered.
Texts is preserved as editable text.

If you want to, please pm your email address, and I'll send you a couple of sample pages in .cdr, .ai, and .svg so that you can toy a little with them
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  #109  
Old 02-20-2011, 02:43 PM
Zathros Zathros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy.leliveld View Post
Lol.. here's the toilet-seat, wanna give it a try ?
This is the first time I did a toilet in paper, all those hot-rod X-planes I did lately didn't have one..
Leif, it was sitting on the original book with instructions

Umm, Gee Billy, with the sloshing and everything else going on in an airplane, I think you'd better put a hole in that toilet.


Ruben, you may just want to break the file into parts. It would be easier to download for some, and the larger files with the extra information won't matter so much. One file for the Body, another for wings, etc..
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  #110  
Old 02-21-2011, 02:34 AM
Leif Ohlsson's Avatar
Leif Ohlsson Leif Ohlsson is offline
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Ruben, I'll take your word for it. You are in the ideal situation to determine this, since you have both programs. I don't.

I guess we'll have to shelve the idea for now. Except that you might - at some point down the line - think about offering one subset or other of the part pages as a zipped version of your original files. In any case it is good to know that a conversion is possible in principle.

And that one is on good and personal terms with the author...

Leif
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