How to work on a hull? - Page 3

**Wilfried** · #21 10-28-2010, 02:55 PM

Thank you Mike!

When you have no general arrangement and detailed plans you have to search and observe a lot of websites. Helpful for the hull are the two pics of HMT ORFASY; you can easily follow the roundings and curves of the hull ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried
PS: if you like to visit the site?
H.M. Trawler Orfasy

**jimkrauzlis** · #22 10-28-2010, 08:52 PM

Thank you, Professor!

Just one question; it is obvious a deck plan is important even at this early stage, but how do you tackle the deck plan if you do not have a plan showing the deck arrangement? I note you say to use photographs, but do you have some suggestions on how to use photographs to "estimate" the deck plan arrangement? I am gathering from your comments that a littel artistic license is sometimes needed, such as when modifying the deck plan to model a slightly different version of the vessel; is this a fair reading of how you would approach a subject for which you might not have a deck plan available?

Would you also comment briefly about what appears to be the use of the "grid lines" which appear on each drawing you are using? I gather they are useful to set up reference points in creating the templates for the formers, etc., but is there any suggestions as to what particular lines of reference you most commonly use. For instance, the break of the main deck to the forecastle, there is just such a line, and at the stern you have two lines fairly close together, but I can't figure out why they are set up like that. If it would help for me to copy and mark up one of the pictures you have posted I could do that.

I am enjoying the thread very much and learning a great deal, for which I must thank you once again!

Cheers!
Jim

**zeawolves77** · #23 10-28-2010, 09:05 PM

wow, Wilfried, thanks for the great insight material :D - really appreciate it.
one question which related to Jim's. Does ship building has some standard for the height of one deck to another?

I'm aware that in building design, there is a standard for the height from one floor to another.

if such standard exist, it will be helpful to determine deck's arrangement refering to the available photos.

tx.

**Wilfried** · #24 10-29-2010, 03:59 AM

Hello Gentlemen,

first let me say thank you for your questions. I will try to find an answer to all.
Jim, normally I have a good choice of general arrangement, detailed plans, pictures, detail drawings and many informations more, starting a custom project of a vessel.
But this little adventure shall give you a helping hand when you are not well equipped. Minimum is a line drawing of one side, better two, of the ship and a deckplan. Combined with expressive pictures it should be ease your work?!
Line drawing and deck plan are fundamental important, to grab the dimensions of the frames.
Open questions can be solved by observation of pictures.
The gridlines you remark are guidelines (helping lines) for my hand finding the right position and long axis for my drawing lines for example.
They terminate and give the exact position. And another vital function; if you draw a horizontal line a little bit different on the gridline - the gridline snap it and bring it in the right horizontal position.
Why I placed all the parts above each other and many more - I tell you in the next days ...

Zeawolv,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilfried

On the left side you can see a small red rectangle (4 mm) and a black square (9 mm). Both are reference to stay in scale. 4 mm = 1 m is the standard for rails and bulwark and 9 mm is the same in distance beween two decks ... my experience ...? Those little helpers very useful as 7 mm calculating for a human being in 1:250 scale ...

the Wilfried

The attached photos explain a little bit; showing the stern I've drawn and the sailors are a good comparison to my referring about dimensions ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

**Wilfried** · #25 10-31-2010, 06:14 AM

Hello gentlemen!

I have drawn the important parts and start now the first frame. Its the frame between main deck and forecastle. First I set the zero point position on the gridline; than grabbing the dimensions with the cursor and draw the first side - as shown on attachment 8.5 ... attachment 9 shows the side of the frame reflected. Than I took the position for the stringer and adapted it. See attachment 10. The cropmark drawn for multiple use; with copy and paste positioned in the middle on the frame and I had the first frame, attachment 11.

**Wilfried** · #26 10-31-2010, 06:20 AM

Drawing the rest of the frames are easy work and done in a short while ... the attachments shows - I work with the same technique as described. And - frames completed

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

**jimkrauzlis** · #27 10-31-2010, 07:25 AM

Greetings, Professor!

My, there is quite a bit to consider in these last two posts, but the lesson plan is quite clearly stated.

From my own personal perspective, it is clear I need to get a better understanding of the software I will use for drawing the formers. I will have to become quite familiar with the drawing tools I had not previously used, such as layering as it seems you have now progressed to using a layer to create the formers, the underlying picture of the ship being gone. It will also be useful to learn how to use the curved lines in Inkscape to form some of the curves I see used for the framing members. However, taking for a given one understands the use of those tools, the lesson plan is quite well stated and easy to follow, thank you very much!

It also becomes clear now why you had put so many of those vertical lines on the page, demarking locations for the framing members which have now been created in your last post. I can understand the choice at the main deck/forecastle break and for the foremost frame at the bow stem, that is certainly common sense, but what are the reasons for the choice of the other former locations?

I see you also added a camber to the deck; how did you arrive at the amount of camber for the framing, and how does it change, if at all, from from frame to frame?

You have also added a cropmark, which I take to mean the slot into which the framing members will fit into the profile former. How did you determine the height of the cropmark as well as thickness? I deduce thickness is based upon what you want the thickness of the former card to be, but what factors go into determining the height of the cropmark/slot?

I also see you have imparted a bit of slope to the sides of the framing members, and a flare to the bow area members; how did you determine the amount of slope or flare to use? I can see at least at the bow it is determined in part by the distance between the top line defining the outermost distance for the form at that particular hull station and the next deck line down (in this case the main deck carried forward to the stem), but how did you determine the degree of curve that is used on each frame? Is this a matter of experience or some other defining principle?

I may have other questions but I figured I would leave it at that for the moment.

Thank you so very much once again for taking us through your design process, it is very instructive!

Cheers!
Jim

**Wilfried** · #28 10-31-2010, 09:40 AM

Hello Jim and other gentlemen who have the same questions!

Quote:

but what are the reasons for the choice of the other former locations?

Experience and knowledge; it depends to the length and the width of the hull. And I need easy to handle intervals

between the formers. Collateral I took 20 mm and at curved areas of the hull 15 mm.

Quote:

I see you also added a camber to the deck; how did you arrive at the amount of camber for the framing, and how does it change, if at all, from frame to frame?

Please, let me notice - all indications here in my report in mm and relate to scale 1:250.
I use for maindecks with a width up to 50 mm a difference of .5 mm between the highest and the deepest point of the camber.

Quote:

How did you determine the height of the cropmark as well as thickness?

Very simple; I use for my framework doubled cardboard. The thickness is after glueing .34 mm - so I'm on the right side using .5 mm for the cropmark width; vertical I take a little more than half of the height ...

Quote:

I also see you have imparted a bit of slope to the sides of the framing members, and a flare to the bow area members; how did you determine the amount of slope or flare to use? I can see at least at the bow it is determined in part by the distance between the top line defining the outermost distance for the form at that particular hull station and the next deck line down (in this case the main deck carried forward to the stem), but how did you determine the degree of curve that is used on each frame? Is this a matter of experience or some other defining principle?

It is; what I like to do with my little report is showing the construction concept common to most of the German shipmodel designs like Wilhelmshavener, HMV, and Passat. And, they all start with models drawn by hand and the tools they have used never lost their warranties.
What I like to do is, pointing on relationsships and dependences to construct a hull - no more. With or without software ...

The attachment shows rulers and the Burmester curves ... and the Copic Multiliners, I use all items till now ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

**DavidESP** · #29 10-31-2010, 09:57 AM

Wilfried, this is an excellent tutorial.

I used a similar method although different software (a 2D CAD program) for the design of the parts and Serif Paint to color for the Mississippi River tug and my failed attempt at the whaleback freighter.

Waiting patiently for the hull covering section.

Have a good day.

**jimkrauzlis** · #30 10-31-2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilfried

It is; what I like to do with my little report is showing the construction concept common to most of the German shipmodel designs like Wilhelmshavener, HMV, and Passat. And, they all start with models drawn by hand and the tools they have used never lost their warranties.
What I like to do is, pointing on relationsships and dependences to construct a hull - no more. With or without software ...

The attachment shows rulers and the Burmester curves ... and the Copic Multiliners, I use all items till now ...

With lovely greetings
the Wilfried

Thank you, Herr Professor, for your very prompt and clear replies...I see the use of drafting tools, and very much understand their usage, to be sure. I do spy a very interesting set of curves, however, in the part that resembles the forecastle deck in the lower left side of the picture...what type of curve template might that be? It seems to have the name "sinus cosinus kurve"; that is not one I was aware of.

I am thinking of taking your implicit advise and design my first merchant ship model using hand drawn templates, much as you have shown here; I do recall Barry at one time also had a thread, perhaps not on this forum, that dealt with his method of hand drawn designs, before he became quite proficient in using computer design software...and the rest is a quite impressive history. Perhaps for a first design doing it by hand might be the way to go, and then after getting a bit more familiar with the process and better acquainted with the available software to then consider using them.

This is a very exciting and quite enjoyable discussion and thread, and one that has really started me thinking about certain ship models I would love to try to design. Many, many thanks once again for your guidance, answers, patience and help!

Cheers!
Jim