1861 Norris II - Page 2

**Ironcladman** · #11 03-29-2011, 11:13 AM

Hi,

Yep, your right so much history, art, archectecture, life.....has been lost to war!.....Maybe we should just stop all wars and rumors of wars! (I been watching the movie: "Things to Come")

I have even noticed with computers how so much of the process from ideas to final product is being lost.....I even do it meself! Computers don't reduce the paper they increase it.....if you document! But the good (AND BAD) thing is I think we are becoming a nation/world of horders.....and our planet will look like some of these peoples houses you see on them TV shows.

Well people need to start given the information up and putting it on the net so people can see it.....and I am a HUGH proponent of putting all that is in the US archives on the net.....for the people! (Tell me there ain't a war in that statement!)

I have always said and from my experience: "that nothing new has been discovered or developed since the 40's, since then it has just been a recombination of the old, and it was designed for this, but you know I can THIS with it. (AMURIKIN INGINURITY)

Really all progress is like computer coding, it all started with a 1 and a 0, switch on, or switch off! Then after that it just recombination to get the reaction you want!

When discovery is ready, it will happen (or forced in the case of wars), as the human experience lengthens we will ALL wander to the truth, of how it ALL works.

Ironclads are an "evolutionary" (adaptive survival) step in the history of aquatic veeeeeehicles! First, we learned we could smack people with our fists, then we learned we could use a rock, then we learned we could stop the damage of the rock with a protective pelt......and so on to the ironclad! In the future we might have the technology to fight a war from our living room by remote control......wait WE DO NOW!

Yep, there is SOOOOO much more hidden or "STUFF" lying in wait!

I created the Civil War Ironclad Association to help save and house history about ironclads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebelatsea

So many plans and models were lost when the CSN HQ building was deliberately burned, we will never know all what was submitted to Mallory. Certainly the plans of USS Keokuk got to him, who knows if the Norris did? Many people didn't care who used there designs. There were some originating in Europe too, that got destroyed.
We can only hope that there are still old copies in attics and private collections that might come to light in due course.

**Ironcladman** · #12 03-29-2011, 11:25 AM

Hi,

Yep, AND FREAKY.....I started this ironclad as just a experiment into what I thought would be an awesome mass production vessel that could be easily, rapidly built for water defense of the south.....AND now I was shown a picture of a design that Porter made back during the Civil War called the Harbor Defense Vessel, and I had never seen or heard of this until 3 days ago! OMG!

Mine is smaller and only has 4 guns.....but could you imagine a fleet of these, light manuverable.....we would all be speakin SOUTHINER now!

This Harbor Defense Vessel was supposed to be what the CSS Georgia was designed and built from!

Talk about building.....an IRONCLAD houseboat!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Boose

This is an interesting alternate history exercise.

Don

**rebelatsea** · #13 03-31-2011, 04:36 AM

Don it certainly is,
I have a copy of a plan of an ironclad sidewheeler that almost certainly originated in France but I can't be certain that it got to Mallory, it came from the Tremlett papers. He was the clergyman who took in Raphael Semmes, and many years ago I worked with one of his descendants. Jim knew I was interested in the CSN and gave me the drawing thinking it might be of interest. I held on to it, but as I can't prove anything I won't use it.

**rebelatsea** · #14 03-31-2011, 04:46 AM

Ironcladman, I have a copy of the CSS Georgia Archival Study ,and the In Situ Archeological Evaluation of The CSS Georgia, Savannah Harbour, Georgia.
From these two documents it is possible to draw up a plan of the vessel with reasonable certainty. Here it is>

**rebelatsea** · #15 03-31-2011, 04:52 AM

That Porter CDV originated in an 1846 plan, which he updated to present to Mallory in 1861. Mallory rejected it, but the State of North Carolina ordered either 5 or 6 of the type. On joining the Confederacy that order was cancelled, but one may have been constructed privateley.

**Ironcladman** · #16 03-31-2011, 10:58 AM

Hi,

That is even MORE freaky how close it is to the one I designed it has the same layout for the guns! I am starting to think Mallory was a bucket head in not building them ironclads of Porter's design.

The layout is just so simple and practical.....could build a bunch in a hurry and we would all be eaten barB-Q!

I have read them papers about the CSS Georgia, I don't think it looked like what that pic is but it is still neat, I think it looked more like yours except for the hull. I think they are still planning to raise the CSS Georgia if the funds can be raised.

I think the CSS Georgia probably looked like this picture, but I guess we will never know really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebelatsea

That Porter CDV originated in an 1846 plan, which he updated to present to Mallory in 1861. Mallory rejected it, but the State of North Carolina ordered either 5 or 6 of the type. On joining the Confederacy that order was cancelled, but one may have been constructed privateley.

**rebelatsea** · #17 04-01-2011, 03:14 AM

I completely agree with you on the Porter design. but at the time Mallory was looking for a seagoing ironclad.Porter's ship is a harbour defence vessel. It would not be able to hold speed in a seaway, or open the forward port, and it had little underwater protection.
That model is a twin screw variant of the CDV with the casemate cut back and squared off. What you would expect to see in the light of experience. But Porter had zilch to do with CSS Georgia.

**Ironcladman** · #18 04-03-2011, 10:53 AM

Hi,

Yep, Porter didn't have any connection to the CSS Georgia, except his influence on ironclad design in general. So what is the best possible depiction of what the CSS Georgia looked like? I have the sonar images of what it looks like now.....pile of stuff on the bottom of the river!

Was it built from the ground up, or was it built on a river barge? We would know what the hull was like. The casemate looks to be like the CSS Virginia deducing from all the pictures and drawings.

We need to base off just the facts only, no well it could have beens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebelatsea

I completely agree with you on the Porter design. but at the time Mallory was looking for a seagoing ironclad.Porter's ship is a harbour defence vessel. It would not be able to hold speed in a seaway, or open the forward port, and it had little underwater protection.
That model is a twin screw variant of the CDV with the casemate cut back and squared off. What you would expect to see in the light of experience. But Porter had zilch to do with CSS Georgia.

**rebelatsea** · #19 04-05-2011, 01:37 AM

That drawing of Georgia was based on a close study of the diagrams and text of the Archeological survey. All of my plans are based on close research by myself or others I trust, or a combination of sources. Not what has already been published in the "popular " press. For that reason some of my plans and histories are very different from "received wisdom" which in many cases I have found to be anything but.

**Ironcladman** · #20 04-05-2011, 02:10 PM

Hi,

Yep, that is the best way todo it! Research and comparison! Stay with it long enough and you arrive at the best possible solution.

Yes I agree, that actual plans and actual history or the Civil War, was I am sure VERY DIFFERENT then what has been put forth in the present. There is the way it was put forth back then, the way people have put it forth now, and then there is the way it really was. Of Course, that is true with anything. Everyone puts their slant on a subject.....but not me.....I always stick to the facts and truth! (Ok, I can't even keep a straight face typing that!)

And, the best thing todo with the "popular press" is use it to your advantage.

So the question is still did they build the CSS Georgia on an already built barge, or was it built from the ground up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebelatsea

That drawing of Georgia was based on a close study of the diagrams and text of the Archeological survey. All of my plans are based on close research by myself or others I trust, or a combination of sources. Not what has already been published in the "popular" press. For that reason some of my plans and histories are very different from "received wisdom" which in many cases I have found to be anything but.