Hoche (1886), 1:200, Golden Bear Models

[Golden Bear]

Here is a peak behind the curtain at Project X.

Hoche, a.k.a. "Grand Hotel" was one of the distinctive landmarks of naval architecture. Her main battery was in the peculiarly distinctive "lozenge" pattern with guns at bow, stern and on either flank. She was special in having turrets at bow and stern (actually armored barbettes but custom has developed to call them turrets) and open barbettes on the side.

This is a very old ship and resources from her early days are not easy to come by. However, Renaud came through in amazing fashion and has allowed me to include incredible detail into the model.

One of the challenges is that she went through fairly continuous modification in little ways and large ways over time. My goal is to design her in as early a state as possible and I think that I've done a decent job of it. There may be a little overlap of some of the very early changes but not much.

Side detailing and masts remain to be done. Also note that the decks are indeed cambered where appropriate. However, work is stopped right now while I try to finish up the work on Victoria so that it can get onto the market.


Carl

[Royaloakmin]

Ooooooohhhh! She will have a full hull option? How about both Northern and Med colour schemes??

[Padre]

Thats a good looking ship. Looking forward to it.

[mabrown]

Originally Posted by Golden Bear

Here is a peak behind the curtain at Project X.

One of the challenges is that she went through fairly continuous modification in little ways and large ways over time. My goal is to design her in as early a state as possible and I think that I've done a decent job of it. There may be a little overlap of some of the very early changes but not much.
Carl

Researching ships, particularly older ships, is really tough. I have found that photos can be particularly misleading because one is often relying on the research of whoever captioned the photo. It gets even harder when a ship has been progressively modified over time and harder still when there is more than one ship in the class with each ship modified to differing degrees.

That said, I have no doubt about your research skills Carl. The historical detail you put into your design and build threads is evident in your amazing finished models.

Really looking forward to this one.

[Golden Bear]

Currently pondering the full hull thing. I'll only do it if it can be taken off and I don't know if I want that hassle. I haven't yet figured out what to do with the full hull for Inflexible yet and that will postpone any releases. Bear in mind that, since there is almost no money to made on these things, I need to have fun also.

I don't know that I will offer color options. I intend to do the Mediterranean scheme although she served equal time with the Northern fleet. I will consider adding complexity such as that at the end rather than before I start probably. Note that the 13.8cm guns are fully detailed. If it becomes a kit I think it will be sufficiently interesting.

Mark, I have borrowed the standards that we used for reconstructing carvings on Maya monuments in my research. For the monuments, a detail had to be visible under three different lightings before it could be accepted. By and large I look to see three different photos, of the proper period, before putting in a questionable detail. I have probably 50 photos available of which probably a dozen are of superior value. An example is the ladders over the tops of the turrets that appear in the Paris model (constructed just before the ship itself). I have a clear photo shooting down on the front of the ship at Brest that makes it obvious that no ladder existed at the front. For the rear turret I have no similar shot from above so I look for the frames that were put over ladder openings. I have one shot that seems to show them but no hint at all in any other equally clear images. Thus, no ladder. The bracketing under the turret and other parts is not clear in any photo but suggestions exist. Thus, I have taken the leap of accepting the brackets shown on the Paris model but corrected to correspond to what shows up in photos. It is a lot of work but absolutely fascinating.


Carl

[Michael Mash]

Project X has arrived with these Beautiful Rhino renderings. A class act Carl. I continue to educate myself on this genre with all of the fascinating information you provide in your threads. I would like to add, the hulls below the waterline on these French vessels are also something to behold. Nice to see you included it in your images. Were they actually green below the surface? Also, what is the structure above the turret? Or is it "part" of the turret. I have never seen anything quite like it.
Mike

[redhorse]

It's great to see what project X is. I'm hoping you go for a full hull version myself. Just fascinating stuff you produce!

[bigbenn]

Hi,
The Musee De La Marine in Paris has plans of the Hoche for sale, because I bought a set years ago from them. Unfortunately I have lost the plans in one of several home moves, over the years.
Is your model based on the above plans?
BigBenn

[Golden Bear]

I have copies of all the existing plans for Hoche and copies of all the photos from three Museums in Paris. And of three different models - only the one from the Museum being of real value since the others are derived from it. I think that my resource base is pretty good! It has been a labor of love for Renaud and me to try to make this model as good as possible. And he continues to scour Museums and other resources (private parties with original glass plate negatives! I have those too.) to make the best collection of materials.

My goal is to make this the BEST model that I ever design. There are difficulties in that goal because the desire to include detail butts up against realities of paper (the need for frames gets in the way of modeling the gun deck completely realistically) and scale. Some things are just too small even at 1:200.

I just recently got from Renaud a series of very clear images of the nameplate over the stern so that I can model that perfectly. I know what every exposed surface of the ship looks like through most of its modifications over time with the exception of one small area ahead of the forward funnel and behind the forward structure. I know what is there in terms of doors, ports, etc. but don't have all the little details.

The plans from the Museum actually don't represent Hoche at any actual stage. The early ones predate the eventual form that the ship would take at launching and the later ones don't includes some of the detail sections and such that I would like. By using all the resources together and verifying carefully with multiple sources I can build a very accurate model.


Carl

[bigbenn]

Amazing!!!
Do you produce kits to sell and if so how do I go about getting your catalog and price list....I also have a warships and ships plans collection of 3,000 to 5,000 plans (my memory fails me as I get older), all catalogued some 25 years ago on a Commodore 64 and all directories are on paper, so I know where to go to access each plan, I have a huge collection also of lithographs for the above ships, all catalogued in date order from BC to about 1920, which is a great way to see what each ship looked like as lithographs were created by marine news correspondents and printed in technical journals of the day, when I collected them from years ago and I have my ships plans also catalogued and stored by category: warships, paddle ships and warships, submarines, oddball, civil including passenger liners and so on....... and other collections of aircraft and tanks and armoured fighting vehicles and racing cars too.
I help out when I can. If a set of plans from me are developed into a model or a commercial model, I am sent a copy of the model free, which I put in my digital collection of paper models and forget about it.......
If I had time left to build all of the models I want to, I would have to have many lifetimes, whereas if I am lucky, I might have another 20 years left to me and I have not built anything for 9 years now - computers are a wonderful toy and I enjoy being lost in the worlds they have created instead.
I can scan my directories and send them to you if you have an e.mail address, anyone else with an interest in them can contact me direct.

These plans are not for sale and only for a specific use and not to be broadcast on the internet.

Time is not in my favour, so I will scan as I can and send as free time allows, nevertheless my plans collections are generally unique, both from the resources I was able to manually locate and copy years ago and because said collections are no longer available to the public and the photocopiers I was able to use, because the paper in the books deteriorates from photocopy light and copying is now banned here. The rest of my collection came from modellers magazines from all countries within the ex Soviet Block and other places and those magazines no longer seem to be "around".
I also have a small, but growing digital collection of warships plans, including those from the Musee De La Marine for warships up to 1918, which was my main interest area.
What is the address now of the plans collection which was available to the public as it seems to have been withdrawn and I cannot find it anywhere?

It seems to me that it is a crying shame that I have such wonderful resources and they are filed away and hardly ever see the light of day. I even have plans of many of the warships which fought in your American Civil War, including some real rarities, like the Spyuten Dyuvil and I helped out with details for Admiral Porters “Alarm” and some other models which are now commercially available.
I can scan plans generally and send them by e.mail, as that is a lot cheaper than snail mail postage, or as a last pinch, send photocopied plans by airmail, as the case might be (depending on size and scanning difficulties).
I enjoy my privacy and hope you and anyone else, will respect that.
BigBenn @ fastmail.fm