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  #11  
Old 02-11-2020, 07:11 AM
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abhovi abhovi is offline
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Thank you gentlemen for your positive reactions. They are more than I deserve.

JohnMGD: Seahorse's system is all paper, with no filler. Because he applies actually three layers: one vertical, one horizontal and on top of that a thin third colored planking. All the shapes of his kit fit to a T.
I always used filler, which caused a mess on my working table and problems with the wife on a regular basis... You might say Seahorse adds to saving my marriage. :-)

Seahorse: I don't know if your system took more time. I seldom count my hours. But it did work very relaxed. I have no design program to decide the shape of the horizontal planking, so that was a bit trial and error, but it worked out well and I think in time I will learn. I will surely try again. (Although to be honest, I have a 1600 Dutch rowing galley on my table now, for which I did use filler. Rowing galleys were a very short lasting phenomenon in Dutch maritime history, only built to fight the Spanish, who were sailing here with rowing galleys. The best way of defense was to build sort like vessels, which in fact produced a Dutch translation of a Mediterranean ship. Complicated, but interesting. Perhaps the experiment will succeed, perhaps not...)
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  #12  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:01 AM
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Vermin_King Vermin_King is offline
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Anxious to see that. Will it resemble a Felucca?
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  #13  
Old 02-12-2020, 01:21 AM
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abhovi abhovi is offline
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Oops, Vermin_King, don't drag me to my talking chair. Once started, I will never stop....

As stated before, galleys are not really a regular part of the Dutch maritime history. They were only build to fight the Spanish galleys operating in the Low Lands at the end of the 16th and the beginning of the 17th century. In 1600 such a ship was chased up the beach and our 'raadspensionaris' (in fact a sort of president we had in those days), Johan van Oldenbarnevelt, ordered to 'record the pattern' of that vessel. Next the Holland states ordered several cities (Dordrecht, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Hoorn) to each build a Dutch version of the galley and they send a charter for a 120 feet long one, probably based on the Spanish design, but 'translated' into a Dutch version. The Zealand states did the same for a 115 feel long one to be built in Flushing. We have these contracts and there are some pictures of around that date that can be used for a reconstruction. Regrettably they are far from clear and they also contradict each other in several aspects. Probably the artists never saw the ships from close by so their reliability is moderate. Modelbuilding is for me the only way to get to a plausible result, and paper is ideal to do a quick experiment.
So in less that two days I made a hull, using the main dimensions (on a 1/77 scale). I also made a rowing figure to see what he could do and what not and I started finding solutions for the unclear parts of both the charter and the drawings. That is the process I am in at the moment and I have no idea how it will end and if I will be able to find a plausible solution.

Tartan after Chapman-img_0779.jpg

It is clear by now that the Dutch shipbuilders did not copy the Spanish design, but made their own, keeping in mind the different waters the ships were used in. Spanish galleys had a round stern and a V-shaped bottom, the Dutch stern was flat, as was the bottom, according to the charter to provide 'quarters' for the crew. There are lots of mysterious sentences in the text because the meaning of many words changed or the words have disappeared at all.
Anyway, it's all experimental and hardly interesting for someone not interested in history. But perhaps there are one or two who do like it, so that's why I write it all down.

Back to the working table...
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  #14  
Old 02-12-2020, 02:32 AM
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JohnMGD JohnMGD is offline
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Ab, when I watching your threads, the building of your models just look so easy, just starting one built after the other, I wished I had your energy in building models !! You also do a nice finish on all your models, museum quality.
I have a big admiration for you !!
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  #15  
Old 02-12-2020, 04:44 AM
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abhovi abhovi is offline
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Thanks John, it’s just paper.:-)
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  #16  
Old 02-12-2020, 08:38 AM
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Vermin_King Vermin_King is offline
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But I really enjoy you being in the talking chair.


Frankly, I think that your writing seems very well thought out. It seems that your mind has worked out an essay, but then you self-edit to be concise and cover the key points, but in a way that can be understood by novices like me. It is much appreciated.


Back to work, though. Don't let me distract you
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  #17  
Old 02-15-2020, 08:47 AM
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Keep the history and the build going. It's great that you do.
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2020, 01:19 AM
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Perhaps you like to see some progress in the experimental build of the 1600 galley. More information has been found since my latest post and although not much is really clear and certain I managed to create something that will probably be abled to sail (and fight). Here is a picture of one of the ships (the Amsterdam one) lying in the harbor on a view of the city in 1606 by Hans Rem. There seems to be a connection between the forecastle deck and the 'quarterdeck', from which a sort of awning goes to the sides, apparently to protect the rowers. The ship has two lateen sails.

Tartan after Chapman-schermafbeelding-2020-02-27-om-08.50.52.jpg

On another picture of the Battle of Sluis (1603) in which the Spanish were defeated, drawn by the same graphic artist, we see the same connection between fore and aft. Here there ship has a lateen main sail and a square sail on the fore mast.

Tartan after Chapman-hollandse-zwarte-galei.jpg

On a painting by Aert Antonisz, also about the Battle of Sluis (1603), this 'bridge' is missing and there seems to an open deck. Apart from the big guns (24-pounders) in the front, here are swivel guns in the sides. But the rigging is the same as in the former picture.

Tartan after Chapman-schermafbeelding-2020-04-22-om-08.29.20.png

So the model has to give an image of both variants, with an awning on one side and two sorts of rigging.

Tartan after Chapman-img_0808.jpg

The matter of the rowers is another subject of doubt. We know that the Dordrecht Black Galley, which was the first one built, had 180 rowers. For a galley with 17 benches on each side that means 5 men for an oar. That makes 170 rowers. The other 10 men might have been spare rowers? I don't know. I started out with making one man in the right scale to see how it looked. Three was the number I could give a place, but later on it seemed that 3 was not enough. I decided that I made the longitudinal platform in the middle too wide, reason to consider to start the project anew. But before I do I tried to solve some more doubtful facts.

Tartan after Chapman-schermafbeelding-2020-02-29-om-08.50.29.jpg

For instance the length of the oars. This is another thing that can be tested in a model. From historical sources we get different suggestions, varying form 20 to 40 feet. In the reconstruction so far 30 feet looks closer to what was possible. The oars are of a special make. I saw that on a model I had in my depot in the Rijksmuseum of a galley, said to be made for the Russian czar Peter the Great.

Tartan after Chapman-ng-mc-679-kopie.jpg

The part inside the vessel was considerably thicker than the long part outside, to get some balance. Because such diameters cannot be handled they were supplied with additional handles. That must have been the case on the old galleys as well.

Tartan after Chapman-img_0810-kopie.jpg

All and all I can say that this project is not finished by far and I probably have to redo it completely, but working on the model did solve a mass of uncertainties and questions and that will probably continue to be so.
For a long time this has in no way been a project to make a nice model. it is a search to get some information about a totally forgotten and lost ship type that has been important in a period of massive influence on the birth of our country.

I said it before: amongst many other things modelbuilding can be a method of research, and paper makes it possible to do quick experiments.
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  #19  
Old 04-22-2020, 05:51 AM
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Michael Mash Michael Mash is offline
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That is a fascinating vessel.
The image of the completed model is beautiful.
There is always something new to learn about with your work Ab.
Mike
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  #20  
Old 04-22-2020, 08:00 AM
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Don Boose Don Boose is offline
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Thank you for letting us share your illustrated research and speculation.

Don
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