A few newbie questions

[sramsay]

I'm an absolute beginner (I introduced myself in the Welcome thread as sramsay. I'd link to it, but there seems to be a link limit. It's there, if you're interested .

I'm having a great time reading the forums, but I have some "newbie" questions. I've tried using the search function to figure them out (and I've read the FAQ), but I'm still unsure about a few things. I offer my apologies to the moderators if this is really not appropriate for "Tips and Tricks" (especially since I have none to offer), but I figured that *your* answers *would* qualify as tips and tricks -- at least for people new to the hobby.

Here goes:

1. Contact cement. I realize that good 'ol fashioned Elmer's (or whatever PVA-based adhesive) is the glue of choice for card modeling, but I also know from reading around that when you're trying to index card stock or otherwise glue together two big surfaces, you probably want some kind of contact cement (because, as I understand it, PVA is water-based and will warp the paper if you try to use it over a big area). My question is this: Is there some kind of preferred brand of contact cement that card modelers prefer?

2. Creating interior frames. I see a lot of models where the interior needs to reinforced with some kind of thicker cardboard. My question is: How thick? Is there a particular type of paper or cardboard I should be looking at?

3. Paint. I know that a lot of people use high-quality water colors for edging. But I also know that some people actually paint the models themselves (or parts of them). For example, this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1IyIS0ca0

That model is flatly astonishing -- way over my present abilities, obviously -- but I'm still curious. It seems like a kit. But he seems to be (maybe?) lightly sanding the edges down, and then applying two coats of paint: maybe some kind of gloss, and then a "weathering" layer. Is that acrylic? Oil? Water color? Air brush? Hand brushed? I see people doing stuff *like* this in the forums, but since it's usually one very experienced modeler talking to other very experienced modelers, they tend not to explain stuff like this (understandably).

As I write these questions, I am fully aware that they are way down the road for me; I'm mostly focused on very simple models -- just trying to get my basic skills together. But when I see some of the very advanced stuff people do, I can't help but be curious about how it's done.

I realize that the answer to some of these question might be, "it depends" or "well, people do lots of different things." And I apologize if the answers are in plain sight somewhere. But I'm so excited to be getting into this. Any insight you can provide would be much appreciated!

[Vermin_King]

I never have used contact cement. I have used cyanoacrylate (super glue)

Perhaps the best way to proceed is to pick a project, and then ask opinions on how to proceed

[modelperry]

Hi sramsay,

Here are a few of many suggestions you'll get:

1. Large areas are often glued with spray adhesive. Many of us prefer 3M Super 77 because it seems more durable for our purposes.

2. Most models that have lamination requirements also tell you what thicknesses to use where. Common thicknesses are Bristol board (.25 mm), .5 mm (cereal box cardboard), or 1 mm.

3. I use whatever hobby paint fits my color needs at the time. Waterbased paints do tend to soften the paper until dry, but lacquers and solvent based paints don't affect the paper like this.

Hope this helps some.

Greg

[Burning Beard]

I don't use contact cement either. When first starting out I used all sorts of different products and have pretty much settled on Aleen's Tacky Glue (available at craft stores and Walmart). If I want to make a part stronger that cant be laminated gracefully I will use super glue (which I swear turns paper into plastic) or simple Elmer's glue which is absorbed in the paper and makes it quite stiff. Another way to toughen the paper is clear nail polish (hard as nails), this has a handy little brush.


When laminating I use either glue sticks or tacky glue depending on the size. Again if it is a small laminated part that needs to be strong of stiff (like struts) I use Elmer's or Super Glue.

Mike

[rickstef]

1. Contact Cement, to me, is similar to Rubber Cement, spreading the glue on both parts, let dry until tacky and press together. Based on your initial question, and application, a spray adhesive(Super 77 from 3M is a crowd favorite) is used to laminate sheets, which ties into your 2nd question(more in a bit). If you don't want to use PVA glue, you can look at gel style clear glues, like Aleene's Clear Gel Tacky Glue, or Uhu, or Beacon's 527 glue, I bought a tube of 527 for my Corvette build, mainly due to the thickness of the stock used.

2. Usually the thickness is mentioned in the directions, everything from a few extra sheets laminated together, all the way up to the former sheets being glued to a piece of 3mm thick cardboard(think the back of a legal pad or desk calendar, of you like Heineken beer, get one of their "Cooler Packs", there is a liner in the box that has a white and brown sides, about the thickness of cereal boxes.

3. Painting in the same style as what our plastic brethren do is common with our Polish friends, it probably originated in the 1960s or 1970s when the paper used, and the printing process wasn't the sharpest, so painting a model would be the best way to finish a model, and somewhat preserve the model for some time. With the advent of more advanced computer graphics, the need to paint the overall model has diminished. The thought in the present day, edge coloring is usually what is done, water colors, water color coloring pencils, pastels, and even sketching charcoal/graphite.

Your apprehension about the "advanced model" is normal for new people to the hobby, but keep in mind, every piece you make is based on some simple shapes, and variations on those shapes.
As you build your models, you will start to notice that certain parts are the same ones you just finished in that last model.

[hetzer]

hi.

1) I use few types of glue - none of them PVA as it is waterbased and if not applied cautiously will ripple the card - avoid. some people use it, but i dont see how it is any better than eg. Impact (that is a contact adhesive with quite quick bonding time) made by Evostick (in UK available in any form of DIY or B&Q stores) or another contact adhesive with slower curing rate (same manufacturer) Timebond (both glues even if spilled or messed up during the build can be rubbed off :D thats the biggest joy of these glues - thats a chance to keep your models crisp and clear ). Also am using Super glue for trickiest parts and touch - on fixings. Laminating large areas may be required but try avoiding large pieces if possible, no point laminating whole sheets! laminate only components you need, its more efficient use of thicker card and no rippling and no imperfections due to spraying glue (tried - not a fan). If youre not building architecture models I dont think you should have larger areas than couple inches (or even not) square (eg. tanks skeleton or wing frame - depending on design really). Do it piece by piece.

2) thickness - usually its around 1 - 2 mm, and specified - by * or ** refer back to the "legend" within the kit. Depending on manufacturer it DOES MAKE DIFFERENCE what thickness you use eg. Halinski models are designed to a fraction of mil (most of them) and using 1,5mm card instead of designed 1mm will make a difference. Some other manufactures are not that precise and you could use 0,8mm - 1,5mm (dont forget to add around 0,4mm of laminated part) and still get away with it.

3) Painting. That is a matter of personal choice. Card builds are divided into 2 groups. The STANDARD build is what we call "OUT OF THE KIT" type of build with preservation of original colors of the kit. It is the most difficult type of build as usually there is no chance for fixing broken part - if reprinted or copied - it will still stick out. Perfection, patience and cautiousness is required, but results can be rewarding. NOT STANDARD build is what you have posted through that link to YT. It is easier, quicker and allows for more operations not available on standard build - sanding, applying CA glue to the edges, filling the gaps and so on - techniques used for this are exactly the same as for plastic. BUT - if you want to paint your model - remember that all printed detail will be lost, and if so - model will look extremely flat. To avoid that you would need to make all the thingies that stick out (whatever hatches were not separate components but printed on, hinges, favorite rivets ... application of which is so soothing and relaxing, especially in thousands hahaha), or make panel lines etc etc etc, and it also makes the difference. Before commencing "painted build" varnish the sheets!

Painting edges. I am using citadel acrylics as am painting figures as well - so got 2 birds with one stone. Works for me, but other water based paints (artists or whatever) should work as well. Also you could use other mediums to paint the edges - markers. Dont use regular markers as these will quickly fade.Artist pens are great (costly but effective!!) eg. Faber-castel artist pens - 6 years ago I've colored the edges and color is still very much "alive".

Hope that helps


PS. Paint the edges before assembling the part. it will make the build much longer, but painting them after assembly usually causes spillage of paint and generally can mess a model up.

[jaffro]

Hello and welcome,

Most of your questions have already been answered and as you can see there's lots of options, lots to learn, but you've come to the right place. Don't think that it's wrong to ask for tips or advice, there's going to be plenty of other people just like you reading this thread and learning from it. I learnt everything I know from forums and posts like this and the learning never stops, I'm always finding new tips and tricks that help improve my skills and builds.

To answer your questions:

1. As has been mentioned, spray glue is preferred for larger areas. Stick glues, like UHU are also good, but for smaller stuff I still use the PVA. There can be warping, but I put the parts under something flat and heavy and leave them to dry, the longer the better, and this seems to prevent warping. Some people have mentioned CA or Superglue... this is another favourite of mine, but not for laminating, I use it to strengthen parts, or to make small bent or curved parts hold their shape. Especially if they have been laminated (added to thicker card) as bending can sometimes cause the layers to separate. When laminating extremely large parts or sheets, I sandwich the parts between two smooth flat boards and put weights on top, leaving them at least 24 hours to dry, to prevent any warping.

2. Card thickness can depend on the size of the model and how strong that model or part needs to be. While a lot of kits, as mentioned, will specify in a legend or the instructions what thickness to use, some will not. Wether you're new to the hobby or not, it pays to do some research on a kit before building it. Read over the instructions, look for build threads from people who have built the kit, make sure you understand what you're going to need to do in advance, before jumping in and starting the build. Not all kits are provided with clear instructions, start with some easy to understand stuff and work your way up.

3. Like Hetzer mentioned, some people build kits out of the box, this is a lot more difficult and there is very little, if any, room for error. Others like to paint the whole thing... I'm one of those. When I first started painting my kits I did it with basic enamel spray cans, cheap stuff from the hardware store. I'd assemble a bunch of parts that all needed to be the same colour, then paint, then assemble. I've recently graduated to airbrushing and on my latest build have started to learn weathering to add more detail. Types of paint can vary, but that's a whole other thread on it's own, I've found that with airbrushing, I get a much finer spray and only need light coats, which preserve every tiny detail. Sometimes i use putty to prepare a part for painting, to smooth edges and fill gaps. I'm using vallejo modelair airbrush paints, with a first coat of primer.

I like to paint my models, not only to hied any mistakes, but also because I love to add extra detail, like rivets, nuts and various other raised detail. I'm aiming to achieve the skill level of the guy in the video you posted, and while I still have a long way to go, I'm having a lot of fun on the way there.

Don't look at builds like that and think you'll never achieve that kind of result because that's exactly what I was like when I started in this hobby, just take it one step at a time, learning as you go and never be afraid to try.

[sramsay]

Wow, thanks to one and all! Couple of quick things:


1. On "thickness:" I guess I was being misled because I haven't (yet) purchased a kit like the sort that are made by Halinski. I've been looking at the Light Ship Ambrose from Digital Navy as a first serious build, and while he clearly wants you to build an interior frame, he doesn't actually specify the thickness. Since, as mentioned above, the thickness can sometimes need to be very precise (combining fractional-width cardboard, say, with laminated card stock), I wonder if a vernier caliper would be useful?


2. I may not ever get into painting the way the guy in the video does it. I actually found the painting part of plastic modelling to be the least satisfying aspect of it (and eventually realized that plastic modelling is mostly about paint). I enjoy building and detailing much more, and as has been noted, the color accuracy on modern card models is pretty stunning. Still, I can't deny that the guy in the video is doing breathtaking work. I was really just curious.



3. I'd heard about all the different glues mentioned, but the discussion above makes it a lot clearer to me. Thank you so much for explaining this. The discussion above also makes it clear that people experiment with different things and go with what works.


I also appreciate the encouragement! You've got to start somewhere. I am really disproportionately proud of the Schreiber model I built (which has, oh, about four parts

[SCEtoAUX]

Not sure which part of the world you are in, but in the USA there is a chain of stores called Harbor Freight where you can buy an inexpsensive digital caliper. One of those helps a lot when determining the thickness of stuff used in paper modelling.

[Butelczynski]

I don't use contact cement. I mix Elmer's and carpenters glue from LePage half/half. For some stuff straight LePage is better,for some straight Elmer's is better.

Thickness of card former will heavily depend on size of the model. Large models need thick former,s allergy models often need just double thickness of whatever model is printed on.

I use pencil for edges. Quick,easy,works every time and does the job perfectly. All models I present here are some with pencil. Soft one does the job