What paper

[jaska]

I have 4 kinds of paper: matte & semi-glossy 170g photo paper, HP photo paper 250g, universal paper 160g. What should i use for Modele-Kartonowe Fokker E III
or Marek ´s planes? I wish all freeware and commercial digital model planners could make a paper proposal, it would be a great help for us beginners.

[GreMir]

Hi,
A lot depends on personal preferences - some people like thicker, some like thinner paper. In addition to this every printer will give you differnet color output depending on the brand and paper used.
Generally I would stay away from glossy or semi-glossy paper, especially if you are a beginner. Those papers are pain to work with as most glues have a real problem adhering to them.
What I would suggest is to do a test print of the same page on the matte 170g, photo paper 250g and universal 160g paper. Compare how the colors look, how the paper forms and pick the one you like the best.

My personal choice is Canon Matte Photo paper Amazon.com: Canon Matte Photo Paper, 8.5 x 11 Inches, 50 Sheets (7981A004): Office Products (http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Matte-Inches-Sheets-7981A004/dp/B0000721Z3)
It's a bit thin (wing skins and larger segment might require second layer inside to strenghten them), but gives me excellent colors on my Epson Photo R320.

[goodduck]

I agreed with GreMir. I'll stay away from any glossy paper. Look great long as you don't fold it. And you have to sand the glue taps first or you will have problem gluing. I would stay with matt.

What printer do you use? I use Epson style 1280 ink jet, and epson paper A3 and Super B matt. Each printer design paper to use with their own ink for best result. But I did tried Epson paper on Canon laser printer and get good result too. But not so good on Canon ink jet.

[B-Manic]

I am using standard 110lb cardstock for my Modele-Kartonowe Fokker E.III build. I encourage you to join the challenge build.

Paper Weight Converter
http://www.hagadoneprinting.com:8080/4daction/paperWeightConverter
Text: 110 lbs = 162.8 gsm
Cover: 110 lbs = 297.88 gsm
Index: 110 lbs = 199.1 gsm
Vellum: 110 lbs = 240.9 gsm
Tag: 110 lbs = 179.3 gsm

[jaska]

Thanks for the advice m8´s. And yes, I am a beginner who uses an old Canon MP160 printer. Printed E III on 170g matte photo paper & on 160g universal and if my creation resembles even closely to an E III I will join the challenge build.

[rbeach84]

Jaska, put it in even if it doesn't!:D The commentary would still be educational...

Good question about the paper. Paper choice is certainly not a "one-size-fits-all" proposition. I'm starting to accept that most of my builds will have to be redone at least once just so I can use what I've learned the first time through! At some point, I may be able to look at a kit and make a correct choice first time, but that will only be through hard lessons learned, well, *fun* lessons since even the one's that might give fits are still better than cutting the lawn!;)

[Golden Bear]

Hi - I do this about once every six months. For references, I worked, until retirement, for HP designing and supporting HP printers.

OK, for cardmodeling you need to worry about 5 basic kinds of "paper".

First is crap photocopy paper. I'll ignore this.

Second is Bright White paper. Thin like crap paper but good for many things.

Third is card stock. Comes in different weights. I use Bright White "Best" print setting to print on it. This is 90% of what you will need to learn to use.

Fourth is glossy "swellable" photo paper. It is a substrate, sometimes paper sometimes polymer, with a coating on top of it. The ink hits it, balls up and makes a bright tiny dot. This has been "photo" paper until about 2009. When used on models the coating cracks and it looks sh#$%ty.

Fifth is porous photo paper. The previous photo paper balled up ink on its surface and took FOREVER to dry. Porous sucks up ink and can be handled immedieately. Of course, the ink is not actually dry but hidden in the pores of the material. It is entirely polymers of some sort. This probably should never be used for modeling.

OK. So now you have a million answers to your question. Focus. Each company has its own paper. They all (almost except for an odd HP paper) fall into one of the five categories I have outlined above. Generally, for a printed kit, you are going to need some sort of card from whatever manufacturer. As a base this should be about 65 lb (176 gm/m2). Personally I don't recommend any heavier and would do detail parts on Bright White.

Personal recommendations include Staples/Office Depot/[Generic Asian/European/British outlet office store] card stock PLUS HP Bright White for detail parts like gun barrels, etc. I just haven't liked other bright whites but don't care at all about card stock.

C.

[rbeach84]

Excellent! I always wanted to ask this of an HP printer guru - any idea why is there so much "overhead" associated with HP printers? (Meaning, "processes" running and eating up resources...) Granted, I have an "all in one" personally.

Of course, this is more a software question than hardware... but I'm open to rumors and suspicions as well.:D

Thanks for a bit of OT discussion.

[kourin]

The store I go to only ever has 200gsm Vellum Boards, sometimes if you're lucky there'll be the odd 160gsm one in letter size.

Would there be a difference if you use Vellum Board for your projects?

[Golden Bear]

Excellent! I always wanted to ask this of an HP printer guru - any idea why is there so much "overhead" associated with HP printers? (Meaning, "processes" running and eating up resources...) Granted, I have an "all in one" personally.

Of course, this is more a software question than hardware... but I'm open to rumors and suspicions as well.:D

Thanks for a bit of OT discussion.

Hi Robert, I'm not totally certain of your question but will attempt an answer...

Printer firmware and software itself along with development of the mechanism occurs at one site in the U.S. Then, as pen development goes along, a different location develops an AIO to go work with the same pen set. They take the firmware for the original printer and add on a bunch of stuff that doesn't necessarily match very well. Thus the AIO driver turns out to be enormous and usually has tons of little glitches in it. The next step typically is for the original printer site to come up with a cheaper version of the mechanism which involves performance loss for print quality. The AIO site then takes the new mech, firmware and software and sticks on their part, etc.

Also, over time the tendency has been to take "smarts" out of the printer and put it into the software driver on the computer. This makes the driver larger than before.

One point that should be clear from this is that if you want the BEST printer that uses a given pen and ink set you should get the FIRST in the series. The mechanism will be a more expensive and durable version and the print quality will be higher than probably any other version. If you go cheap on any printer from any manufacturer they are doing things in software/firmware to make up for cheaper mechanisms. Things like printing more slowly and making more passes over a given region. These both help mask print flaws from the less good mechanism.

As an aside, HP ink prices now are as obnoxious as those of any other manufacturer. However, their servicing is better and they use much less ink at start up and for maintenance servicing than do other manufacturers. I have seen the tests and the videos. They were going to release a video that shows the amount of ink used strictly for servicing between HP, Canon and Epson (nobody considers Lexmark or the cross branded Dell printers to have a quality that justifies comparison to these three). Basically they dumped the ink on a plate. The HP printer made a small puddle on the plate, the Canon filled up the plate and the Epson ran all over the table. The commercial was pulled because Epson threatened to sue over a variety of issues.

This having been said, all three of these manufacturers make printers with very high print quality - just don't buy the low end printers.

Also, HP recently came out with a printer that uses pigmented ink for the first time for them. It is the Officejet 8000 and might be worth a look. It uses the 940 series of cartridges.

Is this any help? I should point out that I no longer work for HP but am working for them again as an independent contractor.


Carl

[rbeach84]

Appreciate the discussion, Carl. Don't want to get too OT, just to say that in my experience, HP's product integration is lacking and the user "experience" is negatively impacted by the ridiculous amount of overhead used just to provide "life support" for their products. Apparently, the core design parameter for the software team is that the customer is a sheep to be fleeced and too stupid to realise that the PC is running slowly because of the "HP virus". In short, lack of respect for the customer and their needs - sort of a "here, this smoking load we've squatted for you is yours to deal with, like it or not. And BTW, give us lots of money for ink!"

Sorry for the vivid imagery, and it is not aimed at you - hardware is rarely an issue! This is a management problem and a corporate attitude that the customer exists to serve HP instead of being thankful that folks are keeping the corp in business. What I wouldn't give for a printer that is as well built as my old Epson Stylus color (one of the first ones, as you noted, very well built - now Epson sucks as bad as any other) and interface software that is resource considerate, comprehensible and does what I ask instead of having to be "tricked" (that is an OS jab...gotta learn Linux!)

Enough 'spleen'! What about that Vellum, hmmm!;)

[B-Manic]

The store I go to only ever has 200gsm Vellum Boards, sometimes if you're lucky there'll be the odd 160gsm one in letter size.

Would there be a difference if you use Vellum Board for your projects?

Ask them to order what you need, shop somewhere else or order what you need online.

[goodduck]

I going to take a wild guess you don't like HP, rbeach84?

I just pick up a pack of 45lb 8.5x11 HP semi gloss photo paper off Best Buy today. Going to try it out on my Epson style 1280 this weekend and see how it goes. My 1280 is old, but still running great. When it die. I'm looking at the R1900.

[rbeach84]

I going to take a wild guess you don't like HP, rbeach84?

I just pick up a pack of 45lb 8.5x11 HP semi gloss photo paper off Best Buy today. Going to try it out on my Epson style 1280 this weekend and see how it goes. My 1280 is old, but still running great. When it die. I'm looking at the R1900.
"Goodduck", I like them as much as I like any other printer product currently on the market - they all annoy me equally. I've not tried Canon in a while...
Printers just seem to be suffering from the same disease that cell phones and a myraid of other products do which is feature-itis. Too many features of marginal value or utility that complicate or interfer with the basic functioning of the devices. Obviously, the designers are keep trying to pack more and more into the sardine can so the marketing folks will get off their backs - a process that does not take into account what the consumer needs or wants. I suspect the only time the consumer is in the loop is *after* all the junk has been applied, and then in an artificial 'market test' environment - if at all. This is all I can surmise that would explain the serious level of 'feature bloat' in consumer goods design (ever look for a cell phone that is *just* a 'telephone'?)
In short, 'bad design' annoys me on oh-so many levels. Too bad the makers of printers don't utilize a user forum (like this!) to improve their designs as they go along.

[goodduck]

I agreed. They packed way too much junk in their products. But I do understand they trying to sell much stuff as possible.

On the paper goes. I tried the HP semi glass. Detail came out nice with 300 px sitting. But 6.5 mil is too thin. The paper will wrinkle up with all the ink, and it settle down a bit when dry. Great for 1/72 vehicles tho, maybe even 1/48. For me, I like to do large scale. I will have to stay will 9 mil do it all Epson paper.