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  #21  
Old 05-12-2021, 11:33 AM
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Smile

Very fine repaint, and great build. But I think the colors is Dark Green / Dark Brown, I not see any Wellesley in desert scheme.

But looks great Karol!
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  #22  
Old 09-07-2023, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by wireandpaper View Post
Thanks for sharing, maybe on of these days to commemorate the East Africa Campaign!
It just took me 2 years to complete the Vickers Wellesley.

Fighting the wrong enemy, Armée de l'Air de l'armistice
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  #23  
Old 09-08-2023, 06:48 AM
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Pericles - I was interested in your comment that Wellesley's did not appear in desert camouflage. You certainly know more about WWII aircraft markings than I do, but I have found one source that support's Karol's artistic decision.

Michael JF Bowyer, in his Bombing Colours: RAF bombers, their markings and operations 1937-1973, says that, while the 47 and 223 Squadron Wellesleys at Khartoum in the summer of 1939 were wearing "the usual Dark Green-Dark Earth-Night finish," he also says, "Shortly after the outbreak of the war an interesting change took place at Khartoum when the Dark Green areas in the camouflage were over-painted in a light tan shade of dope locally devised. Squadron letters were positioned as before, and the Type B roundels were retained, as on KU-N and AO-W."[p. 101]

KU was the squadron code for Wellesley-equipped No. 47 Squadron and AO was the code for Wellesley-equipped No. 223 Squadron.

Bowyer may be wrong, and I certainly do not want to start a dispute, but I love to learn and discuss camouflage and markings, and so wanted to say that (1) Bowyer provides some support for Karol's colour scheme and (2) whether or not the colour scheme ever appeared on a Wellesley in "real life," doesn't Karol's Wellesley look beautiful in those desert colors regardless?

Best wishes my friends,

Don

Last edited by Don Boose; 09-08-2023 at 07:06 AM.
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  #24  
Old 09-09-2023, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Boose View Post
Pericles - I was interested in your comment that Wellesley's did not appear in desert camouflage. You certainly know more about WWII aircraft markings than I do, but I have found one source that support's Karol's artistic decision.

Michael JF Bowyer, in his Bombing Colours: RAF bombers, their markings and operations 1937-1973, says that, while the 47 and 223 Squadron Wellesleys at Khartoum in the summer of 1939 were wearing "the usual Dark Green-Dark Earth-Night finish," he also says, "Shortly after the outbreak of the war an interesting change took place at Khartoum when the Dark Green areas in the camouflage were over-painted in a light tan shade of dope locally devised. Squadron letters were positioned as before, and the Type B roundels were retained, as on KU-N and AO-W."[p. 101]

KU was the squadron code for Wellesley-equipped No. 47 Squadron and AO was the code for Wellesley-equipped No. 223 Squadron.

Bowyer may be wrong, and I certainly do not want to start a dispute, but I love to learn and discuss camouflage and markings, and so wanted to say that (1) Bowyer provides some support for Karol's colour scheme and (2) whether or not the colour scheme ever appeared on a Wellesley in "real life," doesn't Karol's Wellesley look beautiful in those desert colors regardless?

Best wishes my friends,

Don
Hi Don!

On the contrary! I think you even corroborated what I said. In reality, the colors of the desert when produced by British factories were more vivid than those observed in the P-40 and other planes of North American origin, so in fact it is a mistake that plastic modellers make in relation to the "sand" which is not alive. The fact is that no Wellesley was factory painted with a desert scheme, the reasons are simple: production was completed before the war and unlike its illustrious relative the Wellington.

These discussions about colors are always dangerous, because there is no such thing as absolutism or accuracy. I think that in model making paper things get worse due to the nature of the media used and in the case of domestic prints, scale, print quality and type of hardware.

Best regards my friend!
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  #25  
Old 09-09-2023, 03:58 PM
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Does it matter? It wasn't my decision to make that recolor. That was entirely Aaron's decision and I totally support it. If it wasn't real than consider it "what-if?". That's how I see it. I was thinking of making another "what-if" but due to large size of this model I gave up.

Frankly I consider this model the best of Aarons models I build to date. It's very accurate,relatively easy to build and looks absolutely great to me. Original idea was to build one of record setting Wellesley's but it had different,much bigger engine and front of fuselage was different to accommodate it. Other than few grainy photos we found zero accurate drawings to make even half educated design and making wild guess just misses the point imho. In effect Aaron made production run models and I'm perfectly happy with that.

Have fun
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  #26  
Old 09-09-2023, 05:47 PM
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As you say, it's your model Karol, and I think it looks terrific!

I agree about the quality of Aaron's models, which I like very much.

I'd like to build Aaron's Wellesley, too. Your models are an inspiration for me to do so.

Pericles and I were just disussing the markings of the Wellesley, which have some interesting aspects.

I look forward to seeing your next model!

Don
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  #27  
Old 09-09-2023, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gomidefilho View Post
The fact is that no Wellesley was factory painted with a desert scheme, the reasons are simple: production was completed before the war and unlike its illustrious relative the Wellington.
I think you missed the point, though, they weren't factory painted that way, but the references seem to indicate that they were "field painted" with the sand color.

At least one of the pictures on this thread seems to corroborate this:

Vickers Wellesley East Africa... | Aircraft of World War II - WW2Aircraft.net Forums
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  #28  
Old 09-09-2023, 11:24 PM
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As I said previously, this issue of colors is dangerous and even though Don and I are having a fraternal theoretical debate, I am leaving this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butelczynski View Post
Does it matter? It wasn't my decision to make that recolor. That was entirely Aaron's decision and I totally support it. If it wasn't real than consider it "what-if?". That's how I see it. I was thinking of making another "what-if" but due to large size of this model I gave up.

Frankly I consider this model the best of Aarons models I build to date. It's very accurate,relatively easy to build and looks absolutely great to me. Original idea was to build one of record setting Wellesley's but it had different,much bigger engine and front of fuselage was different to accommodate it. Other than few grainy photos we found zero accurate drawings to make even half educated design and making wild guess just misses the point imho. In effect Aaron made production run models and I'm perfectly happy with that.

Have fun
I agree exactly with you on this point, the model is there to be assembled and have fun, at no point are we discussing the quality of the design which is excellent like all of Aaron's models, I made (last year and I confess that now with regret) one note why there really wasn't a factory Wellesley painted in the desert scheme. But considering, range, printer, type of paper, is this discussion relevant? I don't think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Boose View Post
As you say, it's your model Karol, and I think it looks terrific!

I agree about the quality of Aaron's models, which I like very much.

I'd like to build Aaron's Wellesley, too. Your models are an inspiration for me to do so.

Pericles and I were just disussing the markings of the Wellesley, which have some interesting aspects.

I look forward to seeing your next model!

Don
I agree with Don in every aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanShort1 View Post
I think you missed the point, though, they weren't factory painted that way, but the references seem to indicate that they were "field painted" with the sand color.

At least one of the pictures on this thread seems to corroborate this:

Vickers Wellesley East Africa... | Aircraft of World War II - WW2Aircraft.net Forums
I think you didn't read the discussion or Don's notes. That's exactly it, a field painting was carried out, where the sand actually has a different tone, because it was painted on top of cover fabric. In the world of plastic modeling, there is an eternal discussion about the colors of the two Wellesley squads that used field schemes, the truth in relation to plastic modeling in which the color issue depends on many factors, is that you cannot simply use market paints that represent the classic desert layouts used by the RAF. Finally, if we take the old publication Profile (256) which deals with Wellesley, it vaguely mentions the field scheme. Where there is more solid information besides the bibliographic sources pointed out by Don is in Warpaint 86 about Wellesley.

But as I said, I withdraw from this discussion.
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  #29  
Old 09-10-2023, 05:09 AM
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Something to think about- has anyone ever seen Vickers Wellington in desert colors, because I didn't. They did serve in Africa and later in India.
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  #30  
Old 09-11-2023, 07:54 AM
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Karol -

As a beginning to an answer to your question about Wellingtons, Bowyer says this:

The first Wellingtons in the Middle East (mid-summer 1940) were of No. 70 Squadron sent to the Suez Caval Zone and of No. 148 Squadron, which reformed at Luqa, Malta. Both units' aircraft were in Green/Brown with black undersides and grey individual aircraft letters with no squadron codes.

In December 1940, No. 257 Heavy Bomber Wing (No. 37 Squadron, Code LF; and No. 38 Squadron, Code HD) arrived in the Canal Zone and were either repainted or arrived painted in Dark Earth/Mid Stone with Night undersides and Medium Grey codes and serials.

(all the above is from Page 105)

From 2 August 1941, aircraft deliverd to the theater arrived in Dark Earth/Mid Stone with Azure undersurface and white codes (changed to red in 1942).

The Wellingtons, however, retained their Night (black) undersurfaces and Medium Grey codes. One example was LF-K (no serial given) of No. 37 Squadron.

All the above from Page. 107

In October 1941, 104 Squadron deployed to Malta equipped with Wellingtons in Dark Brown/Mid Stone/Night color schemes and Medium Grey codes. The squadron codes were later deleted. (Page 108)

I suspect that in late 1940 and early 1941 (and maybe later) there were stilll some green/brown Wellingtons in the Middle East. Bowyer doesn't provide photos of any of these aircraft.

So, based on this, there were Wellingtons in desert colors. Bowyer is one source of information, and he appears to have done reliable researsch. There is no doubt a lot more information out there, and the site Ryan identified probably has images. I am rather tied up just now, but hope to pursue this further when time permits.

And, of course anyone can color their models any way they want and if it pleases the model builder, no one can say they are "wrong." But some of us do like to delve into the historical evidence to try to find out as much as the surviving evidence reveals.

Incidentally, in my youth, based on a picture book of WWII aircraft that I loved to read, I was convinced that the Wellington upperside colors were green and purple. And I once built a bright red rubber powered stick and tissue Mitsubishi Zero (flown by an imaginary pilot named "Mr. Moto") that I thought was the cat's pajamas.

Don
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