Question about a B-17F markings

[Swampfox]

Originally Posted by SCEtoAUX

From what I can gather there are a few other differences between the F and G variants. Don't know how accurate it is but here is a drawing that shows some external differences:


I kind of wonder about the side hatch (F in the drawing).

The rear hatch on this G drawing is on the wrong side and too far forward. There is also an emergency escape hatch for the tail gunner on the opposite side, near the tail gun position.

SFX

[John Dell]

Swampfox just addressed the same differences I was going to point out. If you think the B-17 had a lot of small detail variations, the B-24 will make your head spin!

I am in the process of doing a series of B-17 kits, including the B-17F (all six variations, I am a bit obsessed). Being I am both a B-17 and cat aficionado I would be happy to add this one to my list of planes to do.

If you want to proceed on your own here is some more info. The markings Hell Cat would have had are just the squadron code and aircraft letter on the rear fuselage and the serial number with the aircraft letter below on the vertical stabilizer. The national insignia would just be the insignia blue disk with a white star. The color of the squadron codes, I've seen both yellow and gray. I'll have to look into that more. Also at this time the groups were to apply medium green paint along the edges of the wings and stabilizers in a pattern of their choice. The pattern the 303rd used was unique. It was prayed on in pattern that looks like the branches of a palm tree. I'm not sure if Hell Cat had this camo applied or not. Once again, I'll do some more digging.

[3Turner]

Originally Posted by SCEtoAUX

I have a family connection with a particular B-17F from the 303rd BG, 358th BS, Molesworth, England named "Hell Cat" , 1Lt Oran T. O'Connor commanding, lost Jan 23, 1943. The nose art was the name.
Attachment 209031

The only numbers I can find are:
#41-24580
Group: 303BG
Squadron: 358BS
Sq Code: YF
I have not been able to find listing with the A/C Code.

Are these the numbers and letters that would have been found painted on the tail and fuselage and if so how would they have looked?

The aircraft was shot down by enemy fighters on Mission #11, 23 Jan 1943 to Lorient, France. It went down in the region between Brest and the coast ditching in the Bay of Biscay. The family connection is the ball turret gunner Sgt. Clinton Fincher, who eventually wound up in Stalag 17B.
Any help would be appreciated.

Intresting.

One thing to note I see in your attached photo. "Hell Cat" words were not the only nose art....I see a black cat with boxing gloves on its paws on the left side of that image.
can see a little better in this video taken of the nose art: http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...Ball_Bad-Check

[John Dell]

The video from that link is amazing! Thanks for posting it!

There are a lot of historic 303rd B-17s shown.

Watching that video again has me wondering which plane goes with all the names and such painted near crew positions and engine cowls. You can also catch a glimpse of the medium green camouflage I mentioned. A very neat video!

[SCEtoAUX]

Originally Posted by 3Turner

Intresting.

One thing to note I see in your attached photo. "Hell Cat" words were not the only nose art....I see a black cat with boxing gloves on its paws on the left side of that image.

Yep, that boxing cat is there. I guess I had this picture in mind when I wrote that message:

Fincher is not in the photo.
That video you linked is great. Thanks.

[rjccjr]

Hi:
It just happens that I had a good friend who was a navigator in the 358th BG for whom I built a replica of one of his ships. The aircraft at that time were painted olive drab upper and gray lower. The fuselage letters were light gray. The 358th prefix was VK. The rudder had a whiter triangle with a black C. Beneath that, were an aircraft letter and the serial number in yellow. The national insignia was a white star in a plain blue circle. The insignia wings came in after June of 1943. The paint was not that durable and the aircraft weathered rather quickly. There was a good deal of spot painting during maintenance. My friend was shot down during one of the first raids over Berlin, was one of three survivors, spent the war in a Stalag, and went on to fly 200 missions over Korea in B-29s. He finally decided that he was really pushing his luck when it came to B-52s over Viet Nam, and so retired. Hope this helps.
Regards, rjccjr

[SCEtoAUX]

Thanks for the information and bit of history. The information is very helpful, the bit of history very interesting.

[John Dell]

Here are two excerpts from “MIGHTY EIGHTH WARPAINT & HERALDRY” by Roger A. Freeman that should completely address all of your questions…

“Original combat B-17Fs were in Dark Olive Drab and Neutral Gray factory finish. Radio call-letters,applied in October 1942, were in yellow, 36in high,below the tail number. The 358th and 360th Bomb
Squadrons used A to K, less E and I, and the 359th and 427th used 0 to W. By the winter of 1943 letters from the whole alphabet were in use by all the Group's squadrons. On a few replacement aircraft
the tail call-letter was painted in white when yellow was unavailable. In early December 1942 squadron code letters, 48in high, were painted in light bluishgrey on the fuselage; the squadron letters were forward of the cocarde with the individual letter to its rear. The 358th Bomb Squadron used VK, the 359th BN, the 360th PU and the 427th GN. Call-letters were retained on the fin but several replacement B-17Fs
did not have this marking. In late June/early.July 1943 the Group Triangle C marking was painted on tail fins and the upper surface of the right wing. The white equilateral triangle had 72in sides and the Insignia Blue C was 36in high. On wing and tail the triangle was usually of the same dimensions. By September 1943 the tail call-letter was reduced in size to 24in high on replacements and from then on this was the standard size for this marking to the end of the war.”

“The USAAF Technical Order covering aircraft paintwork was T/0 07-1-1 and the issue dated April 1941 recommended that Medium Green shade No 42 be used to break up the outline of the upper
surfaces of wings and empennage. This was effected on many of the early B-17F and B-24D models that the 44th, 91st, 93rd, 303rd, 305th and 306th Bomb Groups brought to the UK in the autumn of 1942.
This suggests that the application was carried out at modification centres after manufacture, and it is known that some of the work was done in the UK. Medium Green, being a darker, greener shade, than
Dark Olive Drab, contrasted more so as the latter faded, which was noticeable after only a few months' exposure to bright sunlight.”

As to the configuration of the B-17F in question, I’d suggest studying photos of the “Memphis Belle” as she was a contemporary of “Hellcat”.

I hope all of this helps and I look forward to seeing how your project turns out.

[SCEtoAUX]

Thanks, John. That information is very useful. Seems like the paint scheme and markings were in costant flux throughout the campaign.

The illustration of B-17F #41-24577 Hell's Angels in that list of illustrations you linked too would be a good reference since the two aircraft were in the same squadron at the same time. Hell's Angels was in the mission when Hell Cat was shot down.

Here is a list of mission reports for the 303rd BG.
303rd BGA Combat Missions and Reports
Mission 11 is the one where Hell Cat was shot down.

[Airnc23]

My grandfather was a tail gunner in a b-17 names webfoot. I can't find any information on this plane. I am building a b-17 model right now and would like to know the colors and nose art. If anyone knows any information on this plane or where I can find please let me know. Thank you.