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Old 03-19-2019, 11:01 AM
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Sakrison Sakrison is offline
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Analysis: Boeing 737 Max

This article is frankly terrifying. I share it here because I know a lot of you are fellow "wing nuts." It appears that Boeing and the FAA "screwed the pooch" in this case, with deadly results.

Seattle Times: "Flawed Analysis, Failed Oversight"
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:13 AM
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I've been following along with the investigation, and it does look bad for Boeing and the FAA. It's kinda sad driving to work and seeing the line of 737 Max's parked along the side of the runway.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:35 PM
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Im still scratching my head trying to understand why it took a presidential order to ground the max's, knowing that there was a fatal flaw in the aircraft. Is the FAA that lame duck?
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by eagleclaw4935 View Post
Im still scratching my head trying to understand why it took a presidential order to ground the max's, knowing that there was a fatal flaw in the aircraft. Is the FAA that lame duck?
I'm not so sure. US pilot unions said they didn't think it needed to be grounded and I for one think that politics is having a lot more to do with this than the general public realizes. I think there is a problem that the US airlines' training is probably sufficient to deal with the issue and the issue will be fixed. I was not extremely shocked, but saddened to hear that the copilot on the Ethiopian jet only had 200 hours. That's a workload increase for the pilot and in the critical situation could not have helped. That amount of time in a cockpit is well below US standards and I don't want to smear the deceased, but it was wrong for that co-pilot to have had that much responsibility with that little experience. The much-cited US ASRS reports from 737MAX flights all demonstrated that better-trained crews were also better prepared to have a successful outcome to the problems.
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:44 PM
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... and perhaps even better would have been if they had not been confronted by a problem that should not have existed.

Irrespective of the training and experience of it's crew, it appears that the plane was not fully airworthy.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:16 PM
RyanShort1 RyanShort1 is offline
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... and perhaps even better would have been if they had not been confronted by a problem that should not have existed.

...it appears that the plane was not fully airworthy.
The list of aircraft with flaws is as long as the list of aircraft, period. Some flaws are worse than others. Some flaws show up sooner than others. Things break and as a pilot I personally disagree with this analysis.
Almost any aircraft with an autopilot has serious potential problems, which is why aircraft have over-rides, circuit breakers and manual systems. Even my lowly photo-ship Cardinal that has a wing-leveler has a way to kill the automation by pulling a circuit breaker.
In my opinion, Boeing's biggest mistake was their egregious break from tradition of being "pilots" first aircraft vs. Airbus trying to make pilots monitors. That was the biggest complaint from US airline pilots about the MAX if you read the reports carefully. The pilots felt like they should have known more about the system then was included in the manuals, and that's a bigger problem than the hardware / software problem. You can't fix what you don't understand how to over-ride.
And this is another reason I do NOT want to be on a plane being flown remotely, or with AI / system as primary. I'm old school and I believe good training and redundancy of well-trained crewmembers is the best system we've got.
Remember, all of those union pilots could have said yeah, ground it. We all want to go home tonight, we all want to land safely with the lives of those behind us...
Quote:
Irrespective of the training and experience of it's crew
That's the crucial point, though. The US crews that did experience similar situations had training that led to better outcomes, and that was the pilots and union's recommendation for the MAX issue as well. It's kind of being overlooked, but the first 737MAX crash the plane had the SAME problem the previous day and was saved by an off-duty crewmember who recognized the problem and correctly worked out the solution: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/20/lion...sh-report.html I'd listen to the pilots flying the airplane with their souls in the cockpit before I listened to people with political axes to grind - which is what is happening here in my opinion.
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Last edited by RyanShort1; 03-19-2019 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:36 AM
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A little bit on Ethiopian Airlines for those are not familiar with the Airline.
  • It was founded in 1945.
  • The largest carrier in Africa.
  • It operates state of the art aircraft - including the Airbus A350 and Bombardier Dash 8. Boeings include 4 variants of the 737 (including the MAX), 757, 767 (2 variants), 777 (3 variants) and 787 (2 variants).
  • Fleet size = 112 with another 60 aircraft pending delivery.
  • It is one of the top global international airlines.
  • Training is undertaken by the Ethiopian Airlines Aviation Academy which has existed for 55 years.
  • EA has an excellent safety record and is renowned for its operational excellence and service, for which it regularly receives international awards.
  • In terms of profitability, they go from strength to strength and continually return a profit - this has steadily increased annually since the 1990s and continues to grow.
  • Ethiopian Airlines also (via their MRO Services) manufactures wire-harnesses for Boeing aircraft.
I have had personal experience of the airline and cannot recommend it enough. It is sad they were affected by this tragedy.

Some of the more recent news.....

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...rcraft-safety/

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...-second-crash/

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/trend...ian-crash.html
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Last edited by Kevin WS; 03-20-2019 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:31 AM
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Boeing confirms changes to software and training for the 737 Max.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/21/boei...-training.html
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:03 AM
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Exclamation Its the control system

It is easy to blame the flight crew since the rules are always pinning responsibility to the Pilot in Command.

However, the stick and rudder days are over and there is no simple thing like puling the circuit breakers and disengaging the Auto pilot.

The aircraft of today are controlled by computer systems and the pilot merely tells the computers what to do. However any error that is not accounted for, causes the computers to send signals to the controls that sometimes doom the plane.

Think of it like riding a horse. Most of the time you send signals to the horse via the reigns, sounds and kicks and the horse obey your command. But there are times that the horse decides to do what he wants and that is where the wild ride occurs.

The real issue is why this happens to begin with on a brand new aircraft. Just because the sensors are bad should not cause wild fluctuations and oscillation in attitude. There needs to be an automatic disengage to let the pilots fly the plane.


Training is only a part of emergency procedure. It will not fix the real control problem the plane has. The pilots did not create this emergency situation.


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Old 03-21-2019, 04:23 PM
Richschindler Richschindler is offline
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Not sure if anyone has seen the latest news in regards to this issue. The MCAS can be shut off some what easily on the center console. The fact the training has lacked in regards to this may play a big part of this.
The first one that went down had an issue the day before but it had three pilots in the cockpit at the time, and with the extra hands they were able to override the MCAS system off.
I’m a retired corporate pilot with over 50 years of flying under my belt. Also a licensed airframe and power plant mechanic of over 40 years and have seen incredible changes to aircraft in that time period.
For the most part the progress has been for the better, but, some of it, scares the hell out of me.
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