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  #31  
Old 12-03-2021, 04:13 PM
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Interesting P-47 video

A very interesting link from the latest AEHS newsletter about field assembling a P-47:
How to assemble a P-47 Thunderbolt Fighter in a field with unpowered hand tools (Restored -1944) - YouTube


I easily forget that aircraft in WWII did not fly direct from the factory to the battle field - they had to be assembled in the field by regular guys using only a manual and hand tools. Some views of the engine at about the 11:00 mark. Some great engineering in the P-47 - even greater engineering went into making it easily assembled and repaired in the field.


Regards,
John
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  #32  
Old 12-03-2021, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Boose View Post
Yes. And the problem was that, not only did the P-51 have a vulnerable radiator that the Thunderbolt did not have, but (unlike, say, the P-40) that radiator was in an exposed mid-fuselage position.

Dan Jackson, author of Fallen Tigers: The Fate of America's Missing Airmen in China during World War II notes that the P-51 had the highest loss rate of any Allied aircraft in the China-Burma-India theater for exactly that reason. He explains in a recent Army Heritage Foundation webinar based on his book: Fallen Tigers: The Fate of America's Missing Airmen in China during World War II with Dan Jackson - YouTube (the discussion of relative aircraft losses begins at around 18:10.
Don,
However that radiator actually produced thrust in that location.

P51 was a great fighter.

However my favorite is the P38 Lightning, then the P47 next. P38 was an amazing aircraft, flying before the USA entered the war.

Could carry almost as much bomb weight as a B17 (although on a much reduced combat radius), out turn almost any fighter in WWII down low, even though it was bigger. The top two leading aces for the USA both flew P38's.

It's endurance was incredible.

The main reason why it's my favorite? Kelly Johnson

Dave, I'm watching with anticipation-this is going to be awesome!

Mike
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  #33  
Old 12-04-2021, 12:02 AM
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USAF Wright-Patterson R2800 Photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdave View Post


I wanted to do something large...with a bit more detail.
I also wanted something that could be motorized...maybe have a spinning propellor?
What I have been working on is roughly 1/6 scale, but that was a fluke.
I started with a small electric motor, measured its width, etc and built that center former box big enough to accommodate it.
Then I just worked outwards from there and when I measured it all, it was already close to 1/6 scale.
So I made the necessary adjustments to get it as close as possible to 1/6.

As I mentioned at the start, this is an old project idea that I never got rolling with...
until now...after I saw a motorized engine model online.

This engine interested me because the single row (9 cyl) WASP engine powers the little GeeBee racer,
but more importantly, the double row WASP engine (18 cyl) is the engine in the P47 Thunderbolt Fighter.
And of course, I have a few Jug kits in my store.

Did you know there is a four row WASP?!! Thats 36 cylinders! The WASP Major.
Check it out: Pratt & Whitney R-4360-35 Wasp Major, 4-Row, Radial 28 Engine | National Air and Space Museum

One of the problems I have run into is the number of WASP engine variants and different Cylinder designs.
*Different years and different applications...like Corsair I guess?! lol
I am attempting to focus on the R2800-21, a later version specifically for the P47 I believe.

Because of the scale, I can't over-simplify as much as I would like to!
For the longest time I was working on a Cylinder assembly, which tunred out to be a lot more challenging than I had thought.
Rendering it as a buildable paper model isn't going to be easy!
I finally completed a design before starting on the Crankcase...
only to find out its not the same as the intended v.21(P47) version!

Regrettably I will have to chuck out all the cylinder work and restart from scratch now.



As I said, this is to be a P47 engine...I had planned to build it on some sort of engine stand,
or maybe even a stand similar to the Thunderbolt frame.

Maybe something like whats in the photo below.

The internet offers me a lot of reference photos of WASP engines, but a little too much to be honest,
and its confusing to pick through the hundreds of variants.
I'd love to focus on one engine (like the one in the photo) but there just aren't enough photos of this particular one.
If anyone is visiting a Museum that has a P47 R2800 on display, I'd love a few hundred photos of it?!
The one pictured is in the USAF Museum Dayton.

It would also be nice to get some actual measurements since I have been guessing on a few things!

I tried and searched and tried again to find enough of the type of info you're looking for; the R1340 I did. I want to build a working model. Still looking.

I'll look through the photos of my recent visit to the museum. They had plenty of Wright engines but very few Pratt & Whitney's.

Your cylinder head is awesome, I gave up on doing mine to scale and simplified it to rectangle rocker arm box.

Check your email for photos, only three would load first email-25mb max. These have not been altered so big size mb so you can zoom in if need be. Second email will have two more-last one is main reason why I flew down for the visit. Might help explain why I only took 4-photos of the R2800,also It-was in bad lighting and set back well away from barrier, couldn't get very close and one whole side was inaccessible. Rear could only be seen at a steep angle.

The first email is still loading. I'll send it asap once attached.

Here are the photos the email will bring:
Definitely not a Tardis Engine Core-dsc_0820.jpg

Definitely not a Tardis Engine Core-dsc_0821.jpg

Definitely not a Tardis Engine Core-dsc_0822.jpg

Definitely not a Tardis Engine Core-dsc_0823.jpg

Definitely not a Tardis Engine Core-dsc_0824.jpg

The table like display box in the first photo stopped any direct behind photos, the last photo was taken leaning over the corner of it to get a square shot at the carb.

Oh, a few hours after these were taken I got to experience my first tornado alert. Two of them went by kind'a close.

Mike

Last edited by mbauer; 12-04-2021 at 12:14 AM. Reason: tornados
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  #34  
Old 12-04-2021, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapcho View Post
How about getting this book? It’ll give you propably all the info you need. On sale (-10%) here. Very interesting project Dave!

BR Tappi
Oh Tappi, Thank you so much!

They have a R1340 Parts book for $41. Signing up to get their discounts, lots of interesting stuff won't have to look for in the future!

Mike
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  #35  
Old 12-04-2021, 06:27 AM
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Mike, glad you like the source.

Tappi
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  #36  
Old 12-04-2021, 08:53 AM
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Without trying to sound ungrateful, all these photos and videos aren't helping...LOL...but I do appreciate the effort.

I actually have a large folder of reference images that I keep referring to
and have scoured a lot of the internet finding the same stuff.

My issues are the number of variants in the R2800 design over its history.
Many visual differences.
Small changes in cylinder head shape and pattern...
and differences because of application (aircraft type).

And the lack of multi-angle close up views of specific areas.
Most photos on the web are generic photos of an engine on display.
Unfortunately those arent helping a scale paper model designer.

I also need to design something that can be created within the limits of paper construction
and isn't impossible to build (which complicates things even further).

As it turned out, I discovered that when I was in Washington A&S Museum,
I took a number of closeup photos of an R2800 engine (for this purpose).
I had forgotten all about them.
But the engine is in a Corsair, and its a different variant from what I need!


Thats partly why I settled on the R2800-21 (like the one sitting on the floor at the Dayton Museum).
I know its a common P47 variant...and certain areas looked a little simpler to deal with.

But every time I get some new photos...and try out a new pattern...
I end up with something different again! lol

I just finished the latest redesign of my cylinder head design....
this is probably number four or five...
I have printed it ready to test build.
But I realized this morning that I have gone way off track again with the
the top of the cylinder head.
While my paper pattern might work, its not anything like the USAF Museum R2800-21.
So I may have to start from scratch again.
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  #37  
Old 12-04-2021, 09:23 AM
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This is my latest prototype....
based on an R2800 design shown in the P47 Technical manual.
I'm really not liking the boxy design, but what else can I do?
The engine is just too complicated with all its curves and vanes.

But my bigger concern is the top of each cylinder, the upper covers and housings.
Including the receivers for the Push Rod tubes, and the engine mounts.
This is where I am really failing (with enough reference images).



As I said to Mike this morning:
My biggest problem is I am a paper model designer!
LOL
paper model design is a nightmare sometimes!
Molding in plastic is a lot simpler.
I have to make it work in paper (which means making it boxy).
I have to make it buildable for mortals.
And make it simple enough, so you don't mind building 18 of them!!!!
!


My first paper model design was based on this R2800 cylinder (below).
One of the best photos I have showing the intricacies of the R2800 cylinder design...
but alas, not anything like the R2800-21 (P47) variant).
Yes, its a table lamp!

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  #38  
Old 12-04-2021, 09:52 AM
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I feel for you Dave but that boxy look will be pretty much hidden when you get all the other parts like covers, plates, pipes etc. on top of it. I'm eagerly waiting for this and I'm going to make a fan of it. ;-)

Tappi
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Definitely not a Tardis Engine Core-p-wr2800-21.jpg  
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  #39  
Old 12-04-2021, 10:16 AM
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Actually, since I am terrible at committing to building 18 of the same thing, I just might make a 1:6 model of the table lamp .
Looking forward to progress on this project.



John
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  #40  
Old 04-13-2022, 01:54 PM
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Still messing around with this project...
but its gonna be a long term project.

I've redesigned the Cylinders a few times...
and now I am experimenting with the valve covers and how the push rod tubes will connect.

Trying to avoid more holes in things...for connecting and mounting things...
like with the push rod tubes.
I'm asking myself "does it look realistic enough? or too stylized?"

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