"Upon a Fold" - a blog about paper sculptures crafts, origami and more

[Zathros]

Originally Posted by Maltedfalcon

Zathros, - Actually for Laser cut parts the prices are extremely reasonable. The price point of $10 you are thinking of would work if the model was simply printed. But these are laser cut models. I think in the future as laser cutters drop in price and become more common, The price of laser cut models will drop. But because its a Value add, you can always expect laser cut models to be more expensive than plain printed.
It is expensive, but hardly a rip off.

Having worked many years in the aerospace industries, working with Laser cutters, High Speed Water jets that cut through 5 inches of the hardest steel imaginable, developing a method to cut Chobham armor, CNC wire cutting, EDM. I can sincerely state, that model is a rip off. If they have to sell that bicycle at that price to make a profit, then their business model is way off.


A cursory investigation shows that you can purchase a basic laser engraving/cutting machine, somewhat equipped for $5000 to $6000 dollars (Chinese Units). You can get some home-use units, not very fast, around $1800.

600 people at $10 bucks a pop (crude calculations, leaves out many variables) will go a long way towards paying for a Chinese very capable laser cutter/engraver (that can do a lot more than paper!). If you want to go nuts, and spend $16000 dollars (Canadian Models, higher quality, but you could get 3 Chinese units that do the same thing, Hmm), yes, you can get very sophisticated machines, but be prepared to ask yourself why are you cutting out crude bicycles at overpriced prices.

Having programmed 4 and 5 axis CNC machines, I can tell you that a stepper motor controller board can run you around $100 for a nice little one, and if you are handy, you could make a nice home programmable Laser machine for around $2000. (You Tube has bazillions) Some knowledge of electronics necessary. My point is, these are overpriced models, they will sell some to people who do not know better, or have money to "burn", but just because you paid too much for a laser cutting machine, or have one, does not justify price for a crude model . Getting laser cut parts for your Halinski model is a much better expenditure, i.e. Laser cut tracks for a tank.

Value added? Remember when everything had the name "Turbo" on it?. These are not Halinski Models.

Laser cutting is not a rip off. That High Wheeler bike for $38 dollars is a rip off.

How about a nice "Made in America "Epilog Zing"? For around $8000? It is small enough that you could just work it while you are are watching TV, it's highly rated, they lease to own and it's 100% (mostly) made in America!!!

Laser Cut Models | has a nice laser cut HO Scale hotel for around the same amount as that bike.

[goodduck]

With out taking with the artist/designer in person to see what his idea was, so, to me, it is a designer model, maybe limited release too. Just like a Japanese F1 model cars company that only made 500 resin and die-cast kits for each released, and theirs price up in the two, three, four hundreds dollars or more. One would say why paid few hundreds for a resin model when one can buy a plastic kit for twenty, forty bucks. Well, Plastic model company don't make that model, or don't make it as good as that guy. Plastic model companies pump them out by the ten of thousands, and re-release over and over. That F1 company only made five hundreds each then break the mold. Once it sold out, no more, ever. Their models are works of art. I held one in my hands and I just goes wow! I don't want to built it cause I don't have good enough skill to build it to do it justice, But I still want one to add to collection. That laser cut paper model is that. For the collectors, not really for modelers that download any freebie and never or hardly buy printed models. There are collectors out there that looks for stuff like that. To them, and me, it is works of art. Will I buy that? ....... I don't see a Gundam or any mecha, or stuff from Studio Ghibi.

[Zathros]

That's a copy and a poor one, of a high wheel bicycle. It is not art. It is overpriced, especially in lieu of what is being offered by others. Attached are examples of art work done with laser. Also attached, are some bracelets that you can buy, and not have to put together, that represent far more than what was offered by the blog. Just because someone buys a laser machine, does crude and or simplistic work on it, does not mean it is art. Olafur Eliasson's book is considered art, of course the price is far above the crude Victorian High Wheeler.

The prices for the bracelets cost $25, plus $10 shipping, no assembly required. Bracelaces by Itunube — The Lost At E Minor store ,show far more intricacy, you can wear them too.

How about this paper cupcake holder, it's beautiful, you can get 50 of them for, $30.59 dollars. "Filigree" Laser-Cut Cupcake Holders (Set of 50), Which again, are more intricate, pretty, they hold cupcakes, which is a good thing. 50 of them for $30 bucks. Hmm, cupcakes!!

And lastly, I would submit, Helmet Bird, Helmet bird , a work of art by fellow member Carlos Filipe, whose work is derivative, but brings 2d art into the 3d realm. It is not laser cut, but, as we have just learned, laser cut is not by itself the basis to determine if something is art or not. Supporting someone's poor business model does not make an object art either..

Here's a website that you can spend hours looking at.

Beautiful and Creative Art of Paper Cutting

Don't throw your money away, send it to me. Thank You.


Gooduck, that example you give of purchasing a one off resin model of an F1 car you want that no one else makes, really is like comparing Apples and Oranges. The resin car model wouldn't be a work of art either. A piece from Hayao Miyazaki's work, done by one of the original artist, well, that's a different story, isn't it. Studio Ghibli's work is moving, in many ways, art.

[airdave]

if I want a model of a Bicycle,
then why the hell would I look at Bracelets, Cupcake holders and a Helmet bird?!?
lol

Zathros, you may not like this Bicycle model and you may not like the price...
but thats a personal opinon and that doesn't make it a "rip off"

A rip off is when you don't get the item you paid for.
In this case, you know what you are getting and how much it costs.

if you don't like it...don't buy it. Simple

There are a lot of things I don't think should be considered "art".
And I am usually referring to items that include Canvas Wall paintings, Sculptures and Wall art.
I don't think too much of a painting that consists of a red square in a white background. To me, it just doesn't make sense as art.
I am even more stunned by the idea of paying thousand or even millions of dollars for this kind of "art".
But this is all a personal opinion.
I don't understand a lot of "art", but that doesn't change the fact that it is still art of some kind.

"art" is subjective...and there are many more forms of art.
The work that goes into designing a Car, for example, is a form of art.
Cooking an amazing meal is an artform.

And a small paper bicycle is art.
Whether you like it or not...its still art.

This is not a contest to decide which paper modeler and which paper model is better, in your opinion.
This was a simple post about a paper model.

yes, maybe a slightly expensive paper model, but just a paper model.
And whether you like it or not...a paper model can be considered a piece of art.
and a designer can ask any price he wants for his paper model.
It doesn't lessen the art in any way.
...and nobody says you have to pay it.

I haven't seen another miniature bicycle model, laser cut, in nice black card and presented in a gift envelope.
When I see ten different ones like this, then I can start comparing prices.
And then I can criticise this one for being "overpriced".
but until that time, I will accept it for what it is.

I'm not sure why you are attacking this designer and this model so deliberately
but its definitely gone way too far for what this thread is about.

[Zathros]

Wow, I had this long drawn out statement, with links to other models, free, and links to beautiful "REAL" art using lasers, and POOF! The forum goes down. By the time it came back up, I found I didn't care any more. Oh how fickle fated life can be.

I didn't insult anyone or attack them, "Ripoff" is an idiom, which can be interpreted many ways. Art can be used as a noun, or adjective, which changes it's meaning, i.e., 'The Art of Cooking" makes a good meal, not artwork. The Statue of Liberty is art. A paper model of the Statue of Liberty is not. The original bike was not art. "The bike is overpriced because they used lasers (he used) to make it (he has 3 different ones, that's the cheap one)" someone wrote, I posted the pricing of and links to machinery all information price, i.e., "the cost of lasers", I addressed that, and let's see, um, , oh yeah, they're easy to program, so, nope, I ain't got nothin' else, oh wait,................................There are 1000's of links to people using lasers to make some junk, some neat models, and some works of art. The bike is a model, an overpriced model,....and....................I have a nice paper bike model but i don't remember where i downloaded it from so I dare not show it. It was free though, also...................You know, for $38 dollars, there are master modelers on this forum offering some pretty incredible things, just go to Ecardmodels, or Gremir.

That is a valid basis of comparison, O.K., that's it. I now leave it alone. Gotta go get the kid from school.

[goodduck]

Well, Zathros. Art is abstract, subjectively. It is all in the eyes of the beholder. Will you call a Tamiya's tanks or aircraft box top illustrations done by Yoshiyuki Takani or aircraft illustrations by Shigeo Koike a art? Or how about Gundam and Super heroes like Superman and things like that? They all, most are beautifully painted, are they art? Can they put up in the same galleries that sell paintings done by Claude Monet, or photographs by Ansel Adams? I can tell you, to the galleries owners and collectors that paid in the ten of hundreds of thousands to own one of those paintings and photographs will say those are toys box covers should goes somewhere else. But to the modelers or aircraft and hardware people, those paintings/illustrations are works of art, and some will paid good money for one of those prints, and there are galleries for that type of art. Beauty is all in the eyes of beholder. I like it, don't mean everybody else will. You don't like it, don't means everybody else don't. What worth to you, don't necessity worth for other. Art or not art? Worth or not worth? All abstract and subjectively. I like them all, they all art to me, they worth to each of it own.

[Rubenandres77]

I can see this thread has derived from the informative to the argumentative.

Which I don't regret.

Because reading your opinions about what can be considered art, and what not, is nice.

This kind of discussions are always constructive, and as long as they keep civilized, and no violence is exercised to defend the arguments, it will be a nice reading.

It also relates somehow to a question I made in another thread: "Paper model / Paper craft?"

Godduck reminds us that sometimes limits between art/no-art are blurred and may depend heavily on the way "art" is defined.

Or, as David Hume said (1742): "Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them."

Can it be that art, is also a product of our own perception?

Probably, and that's no reason to fight.

Ruben.

[airdave]

sorry, but I disagree.

This is a "forum"...forums are designed to be discussion arenas.
No arguments...sometimes debates...mainly discussions.
Allowing everyone to voice their opinions and ideas relating to the "Discussion Subject" in each thread.

Its a paper model....
its a fairly unique design of paper model.
its a little different presentation of a paper model.
its a model of a bicycle.
its not a cheap model.
Zathros doesn't like it and wouldn't pay the asking price for it...
we get it.

That doesn't mean you get to call it a "rip off"

I don't know of anyone else producing and selling this model at a lower price...so I can't call it a price "rip-off".
I can see the model, see what I am getting, know the price up front and can make my own decision as to whether I want to buy it...so, its not a Sales "rip-off".
As long as the model that I purchased shows up in the mail, I can't call it a "rip off" period.

if it turns out to be less than expected...I might think I have been "ripped-off'
but you (Zathros) don't have that evidence!

Your opinion of whether this "bicycle" is art or not, is also not part of the discussion subject.

Zathros, you did "attack" the model and its price (in my opinion)
comparing it to other totally non-related models
...and you went further as to state that it is not "art".

You also made a point of announcing to us why you think this model is not art.

Of course a paper model of the Staute of Liberty IS art...just like a painting or sketch of the same statue, a clay or bronze sculpture or any other form of artistic representation.
Although I do respect your opinion and your right to speak your mind, thats a ridiculous statement my friend.
It might not fall into exactly the same categories of "art", but its still an artistic representation.
And, an "artistic representation falls into the category of "art".

But worse, its an absolutely non-productive argument within this thread.
And it breeds responses (like this one) that are just as non-productive.

If you would like to start a thread about what everyone's opinion and argument of what is "art" then we can do that...and then you and I can argue that point.
But why are we arguing that idea here?



Too many times, and too often recently, we have devolved from "discussion" into slam, attack, debase, defame and argument.
I'm not singling out individuals, or pointing fingers...but yes, I am including myself in that group.

We need to stop doing this.
Thats why many members have chosen to leave or are threatening to leave our great community.

[Zathros]

I love Tamiya Tanks. At one time I had quite a big diorama. A local hobby shop purchased it from me and had it displayed for around 8 years.

Now, are you talking about the original illustration of the Tamiya box cover, or the box cover you get with the model? Would you seriously compare the paper bicycle in question to the art work you just mentioned? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there is a lot of art that I don't like, but i know it's art. That is not what was being addressed at all. That little bike in my opinion is not art, it is a craft. It is a model, an O.K. one, not as detailed as many I have seen (even on this forum). Is Shinichi Iwami at artist, probably so, I'd have to see more of his work. If this was all he did, then no. Having been to your website and seen your work, in my opinion, you are an artist (damn good one too, who paints stuff that I like I might ad).

I still never ventured off into any of the tangents that some posted. I stated, specifically, that bike is overpriced at $38.95 and for something that is mass produced, is not justified. When the question of the expense of lasers came into play. I addressed it. As far as design goes, that is is a very little bit of time in Rhino, and with the CAM plug ins, a breeze to manufacture, scale up etc. I know you work with Rhino, I do not know if you have any CNC, CAM, experience. That is a field I spent many years in.

If that bike is art, then the bulkheads flying around in all of the CH53E helicopters and UH60 Blackhawks and S76 Helicopters that I programmed and made from raw ingots of Aluminum are works of art. All the rotor components that I wrote the programs for and made from blocks of forged titanium would be art. All the fixtures and tooling I designed out of my head for those 100's of parts would be art. They are not.

If a guy makes a work of art from the helicopter in battle, representing a situation, it could be art. Then again, I have seen incredible technical hand draw illustrations that really are technical masterpieces, but not art. That is why Architectural drawings generally are not considered art. The design of the building itself may be. A Frank Lloyd Wright drawing of any kind is worth a fortune because his buildings were works of art. Finally, you get into grey areas of what to call what, but this has nothing to do with value. You made a leap there. Illustrations from magazines and as to whether they are not are not art has nothing to do with the inherent value of the object. Value is whatever people are willing to pay. Some people pay a lot for art that then goes down quite a bit in value, and the opposite is also true. It is a non issue.

That bike is not worth $38.95, it is not art, it is an expensive, simple paper model. This statement has nothing to do with what you or others may attach to it. It is a simple statement. I, after observing the 1000's of models produced for sale and for free, think it is extremely overpriced and simplistic, no matter how much the machine cost to produce it. Incidentally, when you work on something, (as in machining a bracket for someone's race car) you never count machine time, you count total time. The end result is what matters, otherwise, competition would never be an issue. "That American car is worth more than that German car because the machines cost a lot to make it". I don't think so.

[Rubenandres77]

Is this art?







Is this art?