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  #21  
Old 05-16-2010, 12:22 AM
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Jim Nunn Jim Nunn is offline
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I have not kept up with this thread so after reading all of these excellent comments I have to say that Ray looks to have the best thoughts on this subject. As the old saying goes “the wisest man in the world is the one who agrees with you”

I have for the last 9 years competed in IPMS contests with paper models in the plastics categories .In general I do well but I’m still working for a first place. So from the contestant side I have learned the rules and also the quirks of what judges like to see in award winning models. So with this in mind we as a “new type” of modeling need (dare I say have to) fit in to the present judging standards with the least number of exceptions to the judging rules.
In my mind there are only two significant differences in judging paper vs. plastic. The big one is the finish. we do not generally have control over the finish of our models. So we need to make the judges understand that what we do is enhance the finish of the model. This is done in the typical manner that plastic modelers use after the base finish of the model is done. This includes weathering, scale coloring (lighter tops darker sides and bottoms) and attempting to get details of the model to pop out and such. IMHO if the edges are not colored it is tantamount to having only 3 out of 4 wheels touching the ground. For those who have not competed that is one item that will knock you out of the judging.

The second difference is that we truly construct or models and with out exception all of our models are scratch built. Remember they are just 2 dimensional templates we make them into 3 dimensional models. So the distinction between scratch built and out of the box has very little meaning to us. As for comparing flower pedal cone shapes to vacuum formed parts. Considering the finished model as a lesser model because it has a vacuum formed nose is rather elitist. What you judge is the finished model not how it is done or what materials are used. If you make the most exquisite machined landing struts complete with all the hydraulic lines and safety bolts but your models wing tips are not level or the struts are cockeyed you are effectively out of the contest. If I were judging papermodels and compared two identical models and one had a nose cone showing the flower pedal lines and no attempt was made to smooth the seams it would lose points compared to the model that did have a better looking nose cone.

In summery in my opinion the only way we can construct a set of judging rules that non paper modelers could use is to weight the point standards with less emphasis on the finish and more (much more) on the construction. In the one national contest that I displayed my models in (they were not entered in time for judging) the judging was done by plastic modelers who had little experience building a paper model even though there was a qualified judge who is a paper modeler.

Jim Nunn
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  #22  
Old 05-26-2010, 04:03 PM
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mbauer mbauer is offline
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Quote:
Having judged numerous model events, I offer my thoughts (within the judging realm) of how I see it.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together!!


What if the model was designed by the builder and is now a kit. Does that count as scratchbuilt? or Kit?
It would count as a kit since it is now marketed to the public. Scratchbuilt would be for a one of a kind item.
Two seperate catagories here IMHO, designers know how to build without instructions, the kit builder has to look things over first-then figure how to construct.



What if the builder of the paper model was the designer, does he get points for creating the paint job digitally that the model was pre-printed with?
I’m not certain of the question here. This would also fit under the scratchbuilt category I would think.
The Designer/Build would be the place to judge ink/finish as the kit builder doesn't have much control over this unless they Repaint, which should be it's own category that could be judged.


Is the finish on pre-printed model judged the same as a the finish on a self printed model?
Hmm, this is a good question. It warrants further discussion. I would say it is judged the same way, as there are ways to vary the finish of a self printed model. See above opinions



Does maintaining the original finish without flaws count more or less then an identical model that was repainted after assembly.
I would think not. If a modeler repaints a kit after assembly, it is up to the modeler to maintain a building standard.
IMHO it just isn't fair to judge a stock paint against a repaint-you have different variables here-mostly software issues, unless the model is repainted using actual paint, markers etc..Professional Graphic designers can and will kick butt on anyone who trys this as a hobby (repaint), the pro knows all of the tricks...
Would it be fair for a pro to redo the finish and then be judged the same as somone who has done a better job with the build, but the repaint looks better, camoflauges the seams etc...?

Just My opinions. I don't construct scale models myself. Never been in a competition, so these remarks might be way off base, but thought as a designer, that seperate categorys would be best.

Not many plastic modelers build their own designs. Resin probably is the exception.

My models so far have been mostly designed for me to build, as such I know what way to put them together, so that is how they are designed.

Finally, what about a category unique to papermodels-Automata?
-Like to see a plastic model fly more than once.
-Plastic models have parts that move, but a paperclock keeps time.

Best regards,
Mike Bauer
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2010, 10:23 PM
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Erik J Erik J is offline
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thoughts on card model competition rules

The stick & tissue and RC contest competition rules would be a better place to start rules research rather than the plastic world, as flying models are built from 'raw' materials, from plans, or from a kit. So, here's my two cents worth.

Major Categories (not model type) are:
Built straight from the kit with no visible changes.
Built from kit with upgrades (formed canopy, new instrument panel, painting, etc.)
Built from scanned sheets of a commercial kit.
Built from free download kit with no changes.
Built from free download kit with image clean up, recoloring, and upgrades.
Scratch design AND build by contestant.
Built from parts taken from any commercial card model kit and any download kit (called 'kit bashing' in the plastic world).

These categories are certainly not all of them but are offered as food for thought.

Within the above basic rules are the many model types, such as aircraft, armor, sci-fi, etc., as the forum 'build' areas are.

A model would be entered in one of the above categories. It would have to 'qualify' so could be challenged by a judge or another contestant.

Rules for models from a scanned kit may be unworkable because of copyright issues.

One category doesn't compete against another category. Each category has awards. As with most model contests, there would be best of show, best craftsmanship, peoples choice, etc.

- Erik
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  #24  
Old 06-22-2010, 03:08 AM
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piginapoke piginapoke is offline
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IMHO, seems a bit confusing with categories that seem to overlap each other.
Built from kit and built from kit with upgrades seem to overlap.

Couldn't it just be 'built from kit (with upgrades where implemented)'? I don't know the judging procedure but does the builder have to list/explain the upgrades to the judges at the show? Either way, I'm not sure it warrants a breaking down into particular categories.

Given the high quality and part count of some downloads (eg Canon), is there a real distinction to be made between kit and download?

random thought, but is there any merit in categories based on number of parts?
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  #25  
Old 06-22-2010, 04:33 AM
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cgutzmer cgutzmer is offline
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Only problem is we are PART of the IPMS so we need to stick to their framework. Getting accepted is a big enough challenge let alone if we throw in changes to their category structures
Chris
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  #26  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:19 AM
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piginapoke piginapoke is offline
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i see. i didn't realise those categories are actual IPMS categories, not being a member.
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  #27  
Old 06-22-2010, 09:32 AM
Maltedfalcon Maltedfalcon is offline
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What Chris said makes sense if you want to "infiltrate" the IPMS,
But in general for judging paper models Eriks divisions make a whole lot of sense to me.
It would be a good idea, to keep those for future reference.
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  #28  
Old 06-22-2010, 09:35 AM
Maltedfalcon Maltedfalcon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik J View Post
Rules for models from a scanned kit may be unworkable because of copyright issues.
- Erik
Some models are scannable - no problems,
those that have expired copyrights.
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  #29  
Old 06-22-2010, 11:47 AM
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Erik J Erik J is offline
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Fitting into IPMS is one issue and creating a card model rules set is another, so I see two issues here. IPMS rules don't address the conflicts of upgrading kits and building from kit scans, so we will be seeing all kinds of card IPMS contest entries for now.

I suggest we card modelers work on creating a rules set and then request IPMS to create a card model category that uses them. That rules set would also be useful for card model only competitions outside of IPMS.

- Erik

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgutzmer View Post
Only problem is we are PART of the IPMS so we need to stick to their framework. Getting accepted is a big enough challenge let alone if we throw in changes to their category structures
Chris
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  #30  
Old 06-22-2010, 02:03 PM
blueeyedbear blueeyedbear is offline
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Back in the olden days, when I built plastic models, I entered a number of plastic model contests, and I brought home a lot of trophies. I even judged a number of contests, but was never allowed to judge a category in which one of my models was entered.

Out-of-the-box (never many entries), pre-WW I aircraft, WW II allied fighters, four engined bombers, etc., etc. were some of the categories for both display and judging.

It would be my desire to never have to compare a plastic B-24 to a paper one!

We need to check on the categories currently used, and we need to set up appropriate categories for paper models, if we are to become an entity of our own, with equal standing.

The paper models I build have to please ME. Then I have to figure out who to give them to! [And I DON'T ever want to judge another contest!]

Bob, the blueeyedbear
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